Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

Hate to say it but, that looks like Lovelady on the steps, west side, leaning over to hear what someone is telling him; right where he testified he was for 3-4 minutes following the shots.

It's too bad you can't show us who you're talking about with a red arrow or something.

--Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

Tom, do you know which side of the TSBD steps is the west side?

[Thomas Graves]

Tom, do you know which side of the TSBD steps is the west side?

You mean the side Lovelady is standing on?

No, I don't, Bob.

--Tommy

Edited May 11, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Seriously??

[Thomas Graves]

Seriously??

What? Me serious?

LOL

--Tommy

PS I fully expect to have my posting rights suspended again. This time for being impertinent and insufficiently serious.

[Thomas Graves]

Seriously??

What? Me serious?

LOL

--Tommy

PS I fully expect to have my posting rights suspended again. This time for being impertinent and insufficiently serious.

But seriously, Bob,

I don't see anyone leaning over and talking with somebody else on either side of the steps.

I just don't know exactly where to look, I suppose.

Better instructions would help. You know, like "first step up from the sidewalk," or "second step up from the sidewalk," that sort of thing? And oh yes, why don't you just say on the right / left side of the steps as we look at the building instead of this East / West stuff?

You know, for lazy dummies like me?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited May 11, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

Hi all, finally got the courage to join after lurking for months.

Regarding Truly, do you think this is a good enough candidate?

He's in the right place to block the cop if he just casually walked back to get some lunch, after putting his hat back on of course. I mean it seems to be the same route.

Also, there is one reference that I found right at the end of Robert Jackson's testimony:

Representative Ford - After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction?
Mr. JACKSON - I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion.
Representative Ford - Was this separate from the policeman on the motorcycle?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to the best of my knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course...

Nothing in this regard from either Couch or Dillard but perhaps they just needed the right question.

That's one of the things I wanted to put to you Robert, how could this cop bump physically into Truly as the film shows, if he wasn't heading for the entrance, unless perhaps he changed his mind at the last second?

Also regarding the bike's placement. Isn't it possible that this cop only learnt something was wrong just before this point and may have kept on going if he hadn't seen the commotion in the motorcade on Elm? That's what I'm beginning to believe myself. I mean people talk about the physical evidence in this case being the best and if you need some supporting the idea that this cop did not look straight at the TSBD before he hit Elm you've found it.

[Clive Largey]

This is what Robert is referring to Thomas, a man facing the camera I believe, so not climbing the steps with the others. Lovelady is still a possibility. Wasn't a coke bottle spotted here in one of the later photos? Perhaps then, he's straightening up after reaching down to grab it or just as Robert suggests maybe asking someone if everything's okay?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi all, finally got the courage to join after lurking for months.

Regarding Truly, do you think this is a good enough candidate?

He's in the right place to block the cop if he just casually walked back to get some lunch, after putting his hat back on of course. I mean it seems to be the same route.

Image1.jpgImage2.jpg

baker1.jpg

Also, there is one reference that I found right at the end of Robert Jackson's testimony:

Representative Ford - After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction?

Mr. JACKSON - I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion.

Representative Ford - Was this separate from the policeman on the motorcycle?

Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to the best of my knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course...

Nothing in this regard from either Couch or Dillard but perhaps they just needed the right question.

That's one of the things I wanted to put to you Robert, how could this cop bump physically into Truly as the film shows, if he wasn't heading for the entrance, unless perhaps he changed his mind at the last second?

Also regarding the bike's placement. Isn't it possible that this cop only learnt something was wrong just before this point and may have kept on going if he hadn't seen the commotion in the motorcade on Elm? That's what I'm beginning to believe myself. I mean people talk about the physical evidence in this case being the best and if you need some supporting the idea that this cop did not look straight at the TSBD before he hit Elm you've found it.

Hi Clive

That very well could be Truly standing behind the group of women. He did mention, in his testimony, that he was having difficulty seeing over the crowd in front of him.

That is a very interesting thing Jackson said in his statement, and a little hard to decipher. The best I get from it is he saw a policeman run up the steps, but this was not the motorcycle policeman. The second last sentence puzzles me greatly; " There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository." Is he referring to Baker or another police officer?

Regarding the motorcycle, the place he chose to park was the first location adjacent to a sidewalk and near the TSBD that he didn't have to pass through onlookers to get to. Remember, the crowd was out in the street on the Elm St. extension and right on across Houston St.

[Robert Prudhomme]

This is what Robert is referring to Thomas, a man facing the camera I believe, so not climbing the steps with the others. Lovelady is still a possibility. Wasn't a coke bottle spotted here in one of the later photos? Perhaps then, he's straightening up after reaching down to grab it or just as Robert suggests maybe asking someone if everything's okay?

4k1m1.gif

Thanks for posting that, Clive. Looking closely, you can see there is someone with a dark top and what appears to be a light coloured skirt directly facing this man and, perhaps, one step down. It is also possible this person is telling something to the person on the upper step.

[Clive Largey]

Robert, if you check the middle of Jackson's testimony you may agree with me that the "motorcycle cop" that he and Ford talk about above is in fact the one he mentioned previous to this falling on the ground with his bike further down the street, i.e. Haygood. Remember, apparently at this moment Jackson has his hands full, documenting the rifle, the men on the fifth floor and their reactions, telling his fellow passengers what he saw, pointing them to the correct window and most important of all staying in the car.

Also, I'm not sure that where the bike in the Couch film is had any less people on that island than was immediately outside the entrance and if anything from Wiegman it actually seems more were huddled together there and how did a sidewalk serve him or his bike?

Not sure about that, anyway I thought you were suggesting earlier in the thread that this wasn't a good place to park if you wanted to run straight for the entrance from Houston, have you change your mind or did I misread you?

Baker, if it is him, actually refers to happenings down the street before he runs inside, things that he was curious about, things that he could only see from that position. My point being, I think he was there at that position for other reasons besides going inside the building. I don't take the pigeon tale as fact at all. I think the prosecutors needed him to look directly at the building and go straight inside, it looks better, feels stronger, despite what he actually said(he paused to look down the street and so could not have gone straight inside) this is what many think actually happened. That visual clue is what he needs to make the story of him looking at that building stand up because as you can tell from Wiegman no one else did.

That very well could be Truly standing behind the group of women. He did mention, in his testimony, that he was having difficulty seeing over the crowd in front of him.

Perhaps he did get something right then, it does seem to make sense and from that interview we know he didn't mind occasionally taking his hat off

[Clive Largey]

This is what Robert is referring to Thomas, a man facing the camera I believe, so not climbing the steps with the others. Lovelady is still a possibility. Wasn't a coke bottle spotted here in one of the later photos? Perhaps then, he's straightening up after reaching down to grab it or just as Robert suggests maybe asking someone if everything's okay?

4k1m1.gif

Thanks for posting that, Clive. Looking closely, you can see there is someone with a dark top and what appears to be a light coloured skirt directly facing this man and, perhaps, one step down. It is also possible this person is telling something to the person on the upper step.

Or perhaps a quick kiss before they head back to work on different floors?

I didn't realise uploads here only show up when you're logged in I'll try a host next time, also thanks for posting that other sharper gif too Robert.

[Thomas Graves]

This is what Robert is referring to Thomas, a man facing the camera I believe, so not climbing the steps with the others. Lovelady is still a possibility. Wasn't a coke bottle spotted here in one of the later photos? Perhaps then, he's straightening up after reaching down to grab it or just as Robert suggests maybe asking someone if everything's okay?

4k1m1.gif

Clive,

Thanks for pointing him out to me. After looking at your excellent blowup, I must agree with Robert when he says he thinks it's Lovelady, and that he's talking with someone. I remember looking at that figure in the Darnell / Couch film several times about a year ago and at one time thinking it was a person who was getting up from a sitting or crouching position, and at other times thinking it was a woman ascending the steps and wearing a light colored scarf on her head.

IMHO, it's Lovelady. Something about the shape of his practically hairless head and the barely-visible pattern of his shirt and the fact that I think you might even get a glimpse of the white t-shirt under his almost completely unbuttoned outer shirt.

--Tommy

Edited July 27, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I'm glad you saw it, Thomas. I was beginning to think you were just teasing me.

Now, I'm really going to go out on a limb here. Gloria Calvary was standing east of and within spitting distance of the Stemmons Freeway sign at the time of the shooting. There is photographic evidence showing her facing away from Zapruder's camera at this position. In the Zapruder film, she is wearing a dark top and what appears to be a white skirt.

There is also Ms. Calvary's own words:

“We walked to Elm Street and stopped at a point on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass. We were standing at this point when President John F. Kennedy was shot. The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot.”

So, we know where she was during the shooting, but what about after the shooting? As far as I know, there are only two stills showing a woman we are told is Gloria Calvary:

There is only one problem. Calvary is described by the FBI as a Caucasian, and the woman in the Darnell still looks distinctly Negro.

This is why I am wondering about the figure seen in front of the person we think may be Lovelady, as I can see a dark top and a white skirt. This is exactly how Lovelady received the news, according to his testimony. Shelley's testimony states the same thing. Gloria Calvary runs up to the TSBD steps and tells them the President has been shot.

Now, if Calvary only appeared in Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies, I would write it off as fabrication on the part of these two witnesses. However, in Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, he states that Calvary came running up to the concrete island in front of the TSBD, and he went running out to see her. Somehow or other, I believe, Ms. Calvary found her way back to the entrance of the TSBD much sooner than we have been led to believe, and the woman ID'ed as Calvary down on the pergola lawn is not her at all.

What really has me baffled, though, is that, if that is her speaking to Lovelady on the steps, how did she get to the steps before Baker did?

Edited May 12, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

I'm glad you saw it, Thomas. I was beginning to think you were just teasing me.

Now, I'm really going to go out on a limb here. Gloria Calvary was standing east of and within spitting distance of the Stemmons Freeway sign at the time of the shooting. There is photographic evidence showing her facing away from Zapruder's camera at this position. In the Zapruder film, she is wearing a dark top and what appears to be a white skirt.

There is also Ms. Calvary's own words:

“We walked to Elm Street and stopped at a point on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass. We were standing at this point when President John F. Kennedy was shot. The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot.”

So, we know where she was during the shooting, but what about after the shooting? As far as I know, there are only two stills showing a woman we are told is Gloria Calvary:

There is only one problem. Calvary is described by the FBI as a Caucasian, and the woman in the Darnell still looks distinctly Negro.

This is why I am wondering about the figure seen in front of the person we think may be Lovelady, as I can see a dark top and a white skirt. This is exactly how Lovelady received the news, according to his testimony. Shelley's testimony states the same thing. Gloria Calvary runs up to the TSBD steps and tells them the President has been shot.

Now, if Calvary only appeared in Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies, I would write it off as fabrication on the part of these two witnesses. However, in Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, he states that Calvary came running up to the concrete island in front of the TSBD, and he went running out to see her. Somehow or other, I believe, Ms. Calvary found her way back to the entrance of the TSBD much sooner than we have been led to believe, and the woman ID'ed as Calvary down on the pergola lawn is not her at all.

What really has me baffled, though, is that, if that is her speaking to Lovelady on the steps, how did she get to the steps before Baker did?

If not outright Caucasian, she looks like she might be Hispanic to me.

I can see how a Southerner back there at the beginning of the "Black vs. White" civil rights era would say that Calvary was "white." Why? Because she wasn't Black! Especially in the South where Hispanics were held in higher regard than "Negroes".

--Tommy

Edited July 27, 2015 by Thomas Graves