No shots fired from the 6th floor window?

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Might be wrong about this, but besides the obvious prevaricator James Worrell, there were no eyewitness descriptions of a flash of gunfire coming from the 6th floor window, correct?

Euins described the rifle barrel, as did others. And he claims to have seen a shot, but never described what would have been graphic details seared into anyone's brain who witnessed such an event.

The WC lawyers didn't press him for details and he didn't provide any on his own. But one would suppose that anyone who saw a weapon fired on such an historic occasion might add a detail or two about the flash, the smoke - some miniscule visual aspect.

But no, not a peep.

For that matter, Howard Brennan's limp description of his sighting, and his subsequent *failure* to alert the crowd, lacks definition by any standard.

And what of the hundreds of spectators who were FACING THE BUILDING during the event? A measly TWO witnesses saw something?

The remainder of the witnesses saw nothing more than a barrel. And even those accounts are pitifully inadequate.

Clearly something was sticking out of the window. But nobody saw anything resembling typical effects of a rifle being fired.

Every one of these clips demonstrates the clear burst of smoke that emits from the barrel during a shot. But not one witness citing the smoke or a muzzle flash?

Impossible.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Mark Valenti

[Jon G. Tidd]

Mark,

IMO, no shots were fired from the TSBD.

At least two shots were fired from behind, I believe.

But not from the TSBD.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

I am trending in the same direction.

[David Josephs]

That silenced WW2 rifle , no smoke and basically no sound. The MC was not fired, doesn't mean a shot wasn't fired from the west side using this rifle. See how the evidence tries to keep you in one mind game while reality is found in a different one

[Guest Mark Valenti]

What is the source of your suspicion about a silenced rifle?

[David Josephs]

As you say Mark... no sound, no smoke, man seen in the TSBD with a rifle, no scope, looks like a 2 foot pipe at the end....

and some guy named Mitch Werbell http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwerbell.htm

I'm definitely not saying it was used from the TSBD...just that we ought not think that all rifles are loud, even suppressed, and emit smoke based on common knowledge.

If this rifle was used - and you can hear how quiet it is - I dare say no one would notice the shot.

[Ray Mitcham]

As you say Mark... no sound, no smoke, man seen in the TSBD with a rifle, no scope, looks like a 2 foot pipe at the end....

and some guy named Mitch Werbell http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwerbell.htm

I'm definitely not saying it was used from the TSBD...just that we ought not think that all rifles are loud, even suppressed, and emit smoke based on common knowledge.

If this rifle was used - and you can hear how quiet it is - I dare say no one would notice the shot.

Sound of a firecracker?

[Guest Mark Valenti]

It's just odd, nearly impossible, that hundreds of people facing the building wouldn't notice rifle fire coming from that "pipe" shape. Even the silenced weapon emits a puff of smoke when fired.

I can 100 percent believe someone was in the window, holding a rifle.

I can only 10 percent believe it was fired, and that's only because Amos Euins claimed to have seen it -- even though he never described what would have been unforgettable details to any observer. Especially a kid who recently had firearms training.

Everybody else only said they saw a rifle. No smoke, no muzzle flash.

[David Josephs]

Mark,

Did you get a chance to see the video? no smoke, no sound. Besides, a real sniper would be set back from the window... not hanging out of it.

The initial sounds sounded like they were ground level... firecrackers or motorcycle backfires... no reason to be looking up.

If a shot is fired from the top of Dal Tex it passes right by the 6th floor east window and sounds like it comes from there...

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."

Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.

This statement is absurd on its face. A rifle shot heard 10 feet from the muzzle (They were supposedly directly under the rifle, one floor down) emits almost 150dB's ... even 120dB creates loud ringing and temporary deafness... these men lied and imo justifies the theory that shots were taken from high up and at those angles... just not from the TSBD thereby making it unnecessary to escape fromthat building - other than for planting evidence...

Was the roof of the Dal Tex ever searched?

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Actually David, there was a puff of perceptible smoke coming from the weapon.

But in any case, I did a study some time ago that pointed to the air conditioning unit on top of the Dal-Tex.

It is conveniently missing from most 3D recreations of Dealey Plaza, and it affords a sniper a stellar full-range view of Elm Street as well as a superlative hiding place.

The Secret Service recreation film points out its perfect location, and somehow it has escaped the notice of most researchers.

[David Josephs]

Indeed Mar... a very small puff that unless you look for it, would be very difficult to see from street level 70+ feet away....

and agreed... I think the roofs of the surrounding buildings were basically ignored, especially the one the lines up with the TSBD 6th floor SE corner.

What's ironic?.... there are photos of the model created for WCD298 taken from that very spot to show Oswald at the window.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10699&relPageId=18

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10699&relPageId=23 - from the other angle showing how a shooter on DalTex would be perfect

(PS - notice where the car is for the final shot)

Edited April 5, 2015 by David Josephs

[Jon G. Tidd]

No shots fired from the sixth-floor window?

Imagine you are the leader of the kill squad. Your basic Job: [1] Kill JFK. [2] Don't harm Jackie. [3] Minimize collateral damage.

If the TSBD is going to be the source of the shots for historical purposes, the kill squad will have nothing to do with the TSBD.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Just one credible voice describing a shot from that window. One photo. One moment on film.

Hundreds of people within sight and within earshot.

And not one description of the shot.

[Robert Prudhomme]

And not a single startled face in the crowd, in a photo taken possibly 3.5 seconds (or longer) after the first shot.

[David Josephs]

And not a single startled face in the crowd, in a photo taken possibly 3.5 seconds (or longer) after the first shot.

What's the man in the hard hat in front of the light pole looking at back up the street - along with all the others looking up there?

At street level there are numerous 1960's motorcycles... not exactly a quiet hum.

Cheering, talking and everyone focused on JFK (well, Jackie most likely)

No one who had not looked up earlier would look up now since to a person, the witnesses claim the first sound was street level

Are you saying that this description by Euins does not describe what would have been a first shot from that area, from that window? (as we all agree, Brennen did not see anything)

And as the shots come from the front, why would anyone look back towards the TSBD... they ran to the Grassy Knoll area

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again.

So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way?

Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0493b.htm is CE366 marked by Euins

Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did you---did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?

Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?

Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?

Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.

The police were sending people back to the TSBD to go inside.... So I guess it comes down to what we believe Euins actually sees and if its just a prop...

Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?

Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, I ran this way, and went across the tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0493a.htm

One has to wonder why he runs to the tracks if he sees shots from the 6th floor TSBD.... why EVERYONE runs to the tracks and other casually walk back into the TSBD (right past what just may have been Oswald - but that's another great thread)

Edited April 6, 2015 by David Josephs