Question about Dealey layout?

[Michael Walton]

Can someone here tell me what the Elm Street grade is from the top to the bottom and also how much of a grade the pavilion is from Elm (where Zapruder was)?

Also, what is the picket fence height and the wall height, and the Zapruder pedestal? I found a nice layout of the plaza and am using that but it's incomplete and I'm trying to build a 3D animation sequence. See a snap shot.

Any help is appreciated including if anyone knows where that complete layout is.

Thanks.

[David G. Healy]

Can someone here tell me what the Elm Street grade is from the top to the bottom and also how much of a grade the pavilion is from Elm (where Zapruder was)?

Also, what is the picket fence height and the wall height, and the Zapruder pedestal? I found a nice layout of the plaza and am using that but it's incomplete and I'm trying to build a 3D animation sequence. See a snap shot.

Any help is appreciated including if anyone knows where that complete layout is.

Thanks.

plaza.jpg

Ramon Herrera on this forum is involved doing the same type of 3D animation project. Evidently he found a good replication of Dealey Plaza. He posts here regularly. Just do a search.

[Kathleen Collins]

This isn't written in blood, but I was told by a researcher that the wall Zapruder stood upon was 4 feet tall. I would also suggest that you compare your 3-D model with Google Earth Street View to see Dealey Plaza today.

Kathy C

[Michael Walton]

Thanks Kathy.

[James R Gordon]

Michael,

There are two documents that you need to get hold off. Both are downloadable:

a) Don Roberdeau's map

The restoration plans for Dealey Plaza.

Both assist with the kinds of questions you are wanting answers to.

I did work on a model of the plaza but was diverted onto other projects. Here is an example of my work.

As you rightly point put the accurate placing of the pergola was a problem for me. Here is a working document I used to place it.I used a rectangle box to place it.

Now to some measurements:-

a) from the south wall of the TSBD to the edge of the north pavement on main street is 300ft

The roads outside the plaza are 60 feet wide. Those inside are 40 feet.

c) All Pavements are 10 ft wide

d) from the edge of the west pavement on Houston st. to the TSBD 425 ft. i.e. Main Street is 425 ft.

e) Elm and Commerce streets are 495 ft.

f) Not including the railing aspect of the Tripple underpass, the Underpass is 24 ft lower that the level of Houston street.

g) I believe the railyard fence is 5ft High. That was the value I worked with.

h) I assumed the level of the carpark was the same as Houston street.

If you are looking at the complete plaza, then none it is mirror image.

a) From the north wall of the post office to the north edge of there south pavement of main street is 300 ft. Therefore from the wall of the TSBD to the wall of the Post Office is 660 ft.

The level of the Post Office carpark is the same as the north plaza carpark.

If there is anything else I can help please get in touch.

James

[John Dolva]

the southern half of Dealey Plaze is not a mirror image of the northern half. Various maps also misplace buildings.

[James R Gordon]

John,

I agree Commerce Street has a different shape to Elm, however their length is the same.

I agree that the position of the south pergola with regard to south grassy knoll compared to the north grassy knoll is slightly different.

I worked off two major maps which I found to be accurate: Don's map and the restoration map.

I did contact Gary Mack about the issue of the mirror image of the plaza. It was not something he had thought about but he agreed that essentially the plaza was a mirror image. It makes a lot of sense that when building the plaza Main Street was the centre and the North and South sides were effectively the same.The railroad line and the position of the Triple Underpass has an impact on the shape of the southern knoll. The position of the buildings is quite easy to work out because we know the sizes of all the buildings and we know the size of the pavements and roads and so it is not too difficult to place them I found the restoration map quite accurate on this issue.

Certainly - without any doubt - the 660 figure is right. The level of the two car parks is right. The lengths of Elm and Commerce is right. Both pergolas are on the same southern plane: you can draw a line from one to the other.

I stand by my comment that effectively Dealey Plaza is basically a mirror image. Yes the shape Commerce street and the imposition of the railroad line does effect the south knoll but essential I believe the plaza is a mirror image.

James

[John Dolva]

It matters to anyone interested in a shot from the south, or left. It also matters in perpetuating a 'myth'. The two halves are not mirror images. Apart from the significant shape and location difference of the road and the location of the pergola, the pond is shorter. The location of buildings south of main is wrong in the map. It matters if you want to locate photographers/people correctly.

[James R Gordon]

Which buildings are in the wrong position?

[John Dolva]

All of the ones south of main.

[James R Gordon]

There are only two significant building South of Main Street.

They are: Old Red and the Post Office. Both of them are positioned correctly on the maps I have seen.

Which maps - in your opinion - do not correctly position those two buildings?

[Michael Walton]

James,

Thanks so much for this additional info. It's very helpful. Do you know where I can download a high-res version of that overhead map you mention? You did a nice job, too, in your animation.

One other thing - what is the slope from the sidewalk up to the pedestal and what is the slope from the top and bottom of Elm?

Thanks again.

[John Dolva]

There's also the building being built that Carr was in. Plus the pergola of course. IOW all of them. Show me a map of DP where they are all correct. I've never seen one.

[James R Gordon]

Richard,

The restoration plans appear to have been taken off-line. Here is a link to my copy.

https://www.transferbigfiles.com/1e8f322f-a1b0-424b-84d2-ecb2d01716a5/2ddj6dkN7LY6trh2AKJGEQ2

As for the slope unto the pergola as a guesstimate it would be around 25º before it flattens out to around 10º. It certainly rises sharply before it flatten out.

It is believed the Elm street is around 3º. However if you look at the Drommer map - I think - and Don's map - it is not as even as that, However as basic working premise, 3º is a good working figure. I used the difference between Houston street and the bottom of the triple underpass. I had two clear figures - HASL - for both and created a slope between the two.

[James R Gordon]

John,

we may be talking at cross purposes and actually with each other. I was never referring to any particular map. What I was saying was that from the various maps I used - Drommer, restoration map and Don's map - I was able to locate various buildings on my model. The size and positions of the streets and pavements was able to guide me quite well.

You are quite right to point out the pergola. It was a major problem. As I point out in post 5 I ended up using a rectangle - created from other measurements - to pin point its position. And I am not saying I was 100% accurate. But I believe - as far as the North Pergola is concerned - I was pretty damn close. What made me confident was that I transferred Don's Zapruder points onto the model. When I later measured from the Oswald window to various JFK positions I was astonished how accurate the model was.

When I placed the car at Z313 and rotated the model JFK's position compared to Zapruder's position seemed correct. So I believe I had the North Pergola correct.