Steven Hager: The Two Oswalds

[W. Tracy Parnell]

18 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Tracy,

I work as a language teacher. I know plenty of people who've lived here in Germany for many years and they're nowhere close to a native speaker's level. In fact some people never reach it. So yes, if Oswald's Russian was good enough to fool native speakers that fact is very remarkable.

You're also forgetting that Oswald passed the Marine Corps exam (allegedly) without proper preparation. And that test was probably level L2/R2, which would've required at least 100 to 200 lessons of preparation.

So was Oswald a language genius? I could find no evidence in his High School records that would support this.

By the way, how long did it take Marina to become fluent in English? That's not a trick question, I'm actually curious about this.

If you can prove that it was impossible to learn Russian in the time period that he had to do it, then you would have something. I think he may have had a talent for languages and it is unfortunate that he didn't pursue that through college instead of choosing the path he did.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

11 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

CIA accountant James Wilcott testified that he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

Wilcott was a disgruntled CIA employee turned extreme leftist agitator:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/james-wilcott.html

Veciana said a lot of things. Unfortunately, most of them don't pan out:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-maurice-bishop-story.html

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

On 7/23/2017 at 1:03 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Another question for you, if do don’t mind.  Had Oswald scored the equivalent of an A+ on the Russian exam, do you think the Marines would have published that fact?

I guess if Oswald had scored an A+ we would never have heard of him. They'd have recruited him for some sort of super secret intelligence work. They would not have sent him to Russia because they had to know the KGB would not be fooled by such a threadbare ruse.

Mathias,

What sort of "super secret intelligence work" could Oswald have done -- using his superior Russian skills -- had it not involved his going to Russia?

 

Jim,

Had a Marine scored an A+ on a Russian test, I believe the CIA would have tried to recruit him. And I'm pretty sure that his high score would not have been made public.

Had the FBI seen such a high score on Oswald's Marine records, I'm quite sure they would have either lowered the score or suppressed it. Because otherwise they would have had to explain it.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Wilcott was a disgruntled CIA employee turned extreme leftist agitator:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/james-wilcott.html

Veciana said a lot of things. Unfortunately, most of them don't pan out:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-maurice-bishop-story.html

These are sophomoric analyses.

For example, that 18 CIA agents would deny something they weren't supposed to know or reveal hardly means that they really didn't know it. That a person would deny knowing his CIA handler till he was near the end of his life is hardly an indication that he made the story up.

 

[Mathias Baumann]

3 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

If you can prove that it was impossible to learn Russian in the time period that he had to do it, then you would have something. I think he may have had a talent for languages and it is unfortunate that he didn't pursue that through college instead of choosing the path he did.

Tracy, if you read my previous posts carefully you'll see that I'm not saying it's impossible. With regular professional instruction Oswald could've passed the test. And if he was an autodidactic genius maybe even without. But there's no evidence that he was a language prodigy. So the more reasonable assumption is that he received some form of training.

But I think the even bigger enigma is how he reached ILR 5 in just one to two years. That is extremely remarkable. To get to CEF level C1 (which is I think somewhere between ILR 4 and 5) you need about 1000 - 1400 lessons if you start from zero. And I'm talking about the German courses we're offering here at our school. So the students live here in Germany and attend class every day from Monday to Friday for about a year. And yet a lot of them never reach that level.

Russian is a level 3 language, one notch above even German in terms of difficulty. So Oswald managed this feat without professional instruction? Possible. But I think it's more likely that he had already undergone extensive training before he got to Russia.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mathias,

What sort of "super secret intelligence work" could Oswald have done -- using his superior Russian skills -- had it not involved his going to Russia?

 

Jim,

Had a Marine scored an A+ on a Russian test, I believe the CIA would have tried to recruit him. And I'm pretty sure that his high score would not have been made public.

Had the FBI seen such a high score on Oswald's Marine records, I'm quite sure they would have either lowered the score or suppressed it. Because otherwise they would have had to explain it.

 

 

Sandy, I think that the purpose of the "False Defector Program" (if it existed) was to divert attention from something really secret. Being watched closely by the KGB Oswald could not do any useful intelligence work. So I guess he was some sort of disposable pawn. His loss would not have hurt the CIA (ONI? FBI? or whoever sent him to Russia) if the Russians had decided to send him to Siberia.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Mathias Baumann]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

Jim,

not all points on your list sound convincing to me. But I think this is a good one. I remember reading in Gaeton Fonzi's book that years later the FBI claimed they had found photos of a military installation taken with Oswald's camera. Do you know more about this?

Edited July 28, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, David Andrews said:

I would add:

• No serious interest in Marxist activities in US after defection, yet association with US intel-friendly figures such as George DeMohrenschildt, Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Guy Banister, David Ferrie.
• Tradecraft-like behavior after leaving Dealey Plaza and while in the Texas Theater.

Surely Jim's list could be doubled

 

Both your points sound like winners to me, David.  On his trade-craft like behavior on 11/22/63….

At the theater I assume you’re referring to the dollar bills torn in half and Harvey’s behavior sitting next to various theater patrons as if seeking a contact.  (No doubt had one really been present, matching halves of the dollar bills would have sealed the deal for the encounter.)  Too bad for him the poor schmuck was just being played.

Can you explain your reference to his behavior leaving the TSBD?  Whether you believe in the bus and taxi ride or the Nash Rambler pickup (or, better yet, both!) I’m not sure how either relates to spycraft

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Had a Marine scored an A+ on a Russian test, I believe the CIA would have tried to recruit him. And I'm pretty sure that his high score would not have been made public.

Had the FBI seen such a high score on Oswald's Marine records, I'm quite sure they would have either lowered the score or suppressed it. Because otherwise they would have had to explain it.

That’s exactly what I think, Sandy, elegantly stated as always.  I’ll bet your new website is going to be terrific!  Please hurry up!  Our side needs a shot in the arm to counteract our sorrow over the pitiful new doc releases.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Jim,

not all points on your list sound convincing to me. But I think this is a good one. I remember reading in Gaeton Fonzi's book that years later the FBI claimed they had found photos of a military installation taken with Oswald's camera. Do you know more about this?

Mathias,

John Armstrong personally examined every photograph at the National Archives in the middle and late 1990s that was apparently taken with Lee Oswald’s Minox III camera.  Here’s what John wrote about them: “The National Archives has several "Minox" photographs of scenes in Japan, Philippines, Atsugi, and Hawaii, and of Lee Oswald and his Marine buddy, George "Hans" Wilkins. The only "Minox" photographs in the JFK Collection in the National Archives are those taken in the Far East--there are no Minox photos either prior to or after Lee Oswald's military service in Japan.”

With a different camera, however, Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald clearly took photographs of military installations while he was stationed with MAG II near Ping Tung, Taiwan (at the same time USMC medical records clearly indicate that American-born Lee Oswald was in Atsugi, Japan).

A couple of things about Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald’s work in the USSR:  When he first arrived in Moscow, it was quite obvious the Russians didn’t buy his story because they were preparing to send him packing almost immediately.  But then he slit his wrist in an alleged suicide attempt and was hospitalized.  Dedicated spy that he was, he used the incident to prolong his visit for more than two years.

I do believe his beautifully written CIA report has been hiding in plain sight in the Warren Volumes for more than 50 years.  It’s called The Collective—Life of a Russian Worker.  Can you imagine how valuable information like this would have been in the days before sophisticated satellites and the Internet?
 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[David Andrews]

On 7/28/2017 at 1:56 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Both your points sound like winners to me, David.  On his trade-craft like behavior on 11/22/63….

At the theater I assume you’re referring to the dollar bills torn in half and Harvey’s behavior sitting next to various theater patrons as if seeking a contact.  (No doubt had one really been present, matching halves of the dollar bills would have sealed the deal for the encounter.)  Too bad for him the poor schmuck was just being played.

Can you explain your reference to his behavior leaving the TSBD?  Whether you believe in the bus and taxi ride or the Nash Rambler pickup (or, better yet, both!) I’m not sure how either relates to spycraft

I'm thinking of his taking the McWatters bus, getting off when delayed (and ahead of apprehension, since that bus was headed back into Dealey Plaza), then taking the taxi to Oak Cliff, and the report that he got out past the rooming house and doubled back on foot.  Plus his reported looking for contacts at the theater.  Is the dollar bill half substantiated among his effects?

Edited July 30, 2017 by David Andrews

[Tom Hume]

In the third post on the thread linked above, Jim posted what appears to be a Dallas Police note pertaining to the two half dollar bills. My take on the bills is different than Jim’s. I think they are a puzzle and I’ve have done a couple of lengthy posts on the topic.

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Is the dollar bill half substantiated among his effects?

Yes and no....  The image below is from the Dallas Municipal Archives and Record Center.

 

The text in the bottom box may be a little hard to read.  It begins with this sentence: “Found in Oswald’s wallet when he was arrested were two halved dollar bills with different serial numbers.”

John wrote on our website: “Curiously, neither of these items were listed on the police inventory of 11/23/63, the joint FBI/DPD inventory of 11/26/63 (Oswald's so-called possessions), nor were they photographed. At the National Archives, in Adelphi, MD, I inspected and handled each item of inventory listed on the joint FBI/DPD inventory of 11/26/63. These items were not among the inventory.”

[Jim Hargrove]

12 minutes ago, Tom Hume said:

In the third post on the thread linked above, Jim posted what appears to be a Dallas Police note pertaining to the two half dollar bills. My take on the bills is different than Jim’s. I think they are a puzzle and I’ve have done a couple of lengthy posts on the topic.

Tom,

I know you’re interested in Igor Vaganov.  I was going through the John Armstrong online collection at Baylor and accidentally came across a lengthy article about Vaganov by John Berendt.  Have you read it?  Here’s the link:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/28787/rec/5

Easiest way to read it is to click the “Download” button toward the top right of the page and save it to your local machine.
 

[Mathias Baumann]

On ‎28‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 8:00 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Mathias,

John Armstrong personally examined every photograph at the National Archives in the middle and late 1990s that was apparently taken with Lee Oswald’s Minox III camera.  Here’s what John wrote about them: “The National Archives has several "Minox" photographs of scenes in Japan, Philippines, Atsugi, and Hawaii, and of Lee Oswald and his Marine buddy, George "Hans" Wilkins. The only "Minox" photographs in the JFK Collection in the National Archives are those taken in the Far East--there are no Minox photos either prior to or after Lee Oswald's military service in Japan.”

With a different camera, however, Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald clearly took photographs of military installations while he was stationed with MAG II near Ping Tung, Taiwan (at the same time USMC medical records clearly indicate that American-born Lee Oswald was in Atsugi, Japan).

A couple of things about Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald’s work in the USSR:  When he first arrived in Moscow, it was quite obvious the Russians didn’t buy his story because they were preparing to send him packing almost immediately.  But then he slit his wrist in an alleged suicide attempt and was hospitalized.  Dedicated spy that he was, he used the incident to prolong his visit for more than two years.

I do believe his beautifully written CIA report has been hiding in plain sight in the Warren Volumes for more than 50 years.  It’s called The Collective—Life of a Russian Worker.  Can you imagine how valuable information like this would have been in the days before sophisticated satellites and the Internet?
 

Jim,

thank you for that interesting information concerning the photos. Do we know how Oswald got hold of that camera? I imagine it was very expensive and hard to find...

About Oswald's report: I'm sure Russian exiles could've provived a far more detailed insight into Russian life than Oswald could during the short time he lived in Russia. We know Oswald always wanted to be some sort of spy and I think he wrote that report with this idea in mind. But I'm convinced that he was used for a different purpose, although I only have a vague idea what it could have been. However I think it might somehow be connected to Webster's defection and how his and Oswald's identities were merged in Oswald's CIA file. And then there's the curious coincidence that Marina might have known Webster too...

What's your theory on this? Was Marina a KGB informer spying on US defectors? Has she ever explained why she had Webster's address in her address book? Is there any link between her and defector Marvin Kantor? She once studied at the university where Kantor taught Slavic languages.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

It's hard to be definitive about this, Mathias, because the Minox camera now in the JFK Collection at NARA has been filled with some sort of heavy substance, apparently cementing it shut. The case of this camera needs to slide open both to take a picture or to see the serial number.  John reports it feels MUCH heavier than his own similar Minox camera.

Are you sure Webster and Oswald's identities were merged by CIA, or were there just striking similarities in their Russian trips?  Webster told Dick Russell, by the way, that he and Marina spoke ENGLISH in Russia.  

From Harvey and Lee....

NOTE: In a 1997 interview Robert Webster told JFK researcher and author Dick Russell that he met Marina Prusakova in Moscow in the summer of 1959 and spoke with her in English. Webster said that Marina spoke English well, but with a heavy accent.

A year after Webster was sent to Leningrad by the Soviet Government, 400 miles from Moscow, he met Marina again shortly after he applied for an exit visa so that he could return to the US. ^{[interview of Robert Webster by Dick Russell at Cape Cod, MA. 1997]}

Marina's friend in Dallas, Katya Ford, said that when she asked Marina why Oswald went to Russia, Marina told her that he worked for the Rand Corporation and helped set up the American exhibit at the World Trade Exposition in Moscow^{.[WC Document 5,p. 259; FBI interview of Katherine Ford by SA James P. Hosty, 11/24/63]} Marina had momentarily confused Harvey Oswald with Robert Webster, the 1st US "defector," whom she met in Moscow (1959) and again in Leningrad (1960).

It is not a coincidence that both Webster and Oswald "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the Spring of 1962. These US "defectors," acting in perfect harmony, were both working for the CIA.

--From Harvey and Lee, p. 799, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong