Steven Hager: The Two Oswalds

[Jim Hargrove]

Jeremy,

The chutzpah of anyone who would inform us that an anonymous call was central to a book—without actually reading the book—is stunning!  I would be embarrassed to make that admission, but no doubt you are not.  The only significance of that call is the possible suggestion that Lee HARVEY Oswald was originally from Hungary.  Contrary to what you suggest, the caller didn’t even say Oswald or his family spoke Russian.  Where on earth did you get that?

Your position, apparently, is that the one and only “Lee Harvey Oswald” taught himself to read and write Russian by reading magazines and newspapers while he was serving in the Marine Corps.  Is that correct?

Sheesh!  

Then he refined his Russian sufficiently during a two and a half year stint in Minsk working full time and taking no language lessons to read and discuss—in Russian—Russian-language literature.  Good luck with that line of reasoning!

On May 1,  1953, Lee HARVEY Oswald was examined by Youth House psychiatrist Renatus Hargtogs. Hartogs, in his book, described Oswald as  “ a slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face....I remember thinking how slight he seemed for his 13 years. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps." 

We think Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel in a long-term program to send a spy with an American birth certificate to the U.S.S.R.  You think our CIA Bad Boys weren’t bad enough to do something like that?  This is the same era that they were dosing hundreds—probably thousands—of unwitting Americans with LSD!  (See, for example, Time Magazine’s “The Legacy of the CIA’s Secret LSD Experiments on America”

You think any organization that would do that would hesitate to give a little orphan foreigner an unnecessary mastoidectomy just to make the health records jibe with the American he was set up to impersonate?  

As to the handwriting, you can get expert opinions on anything in a legal proceeding, especially if you control the handling of all the evidence.  Maybe some of the documents did not have the lineage the USG claimed.  Maybe some of the expert opinions were misrepresented.  Maybe some experts were carefully coached about U.S. Intel “sources and methods” and their patriotic duty to protect them.  Who knows?

I do know that if you look at the exhibit of “Oswald’s” signatures on page 243 of Robert Groden’s “The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald,” it is perfectly obvious that not all those signatures are from the same person.
 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

You think any organization that would do that would hesitate to give a little orphan foreigner an unnecessary mastoidectomy just to make the health records jibe with the American he was set up to impersonate?  

Well at least Jim has attempted to answer the mastoid issues. But I guess the CIA had the two boys lined up for this plot by the time they were both six years old. The reason I say this is that both the Norton Report on the exhumation and Dr. DiMaio's new book state that the mastoid scar had the appearance expected of an 18-year-old defect. That's some plot.

[Jim Hargrove]

Nah.... Assuming that what you say is accurate, the description that an "18-year-old defect" was as "expected" was probably just based on the medical history of the American Oswald and the fact that the mastoidectomy was performed when he was 6 years old.  By pulling a decomposing skull out of a grave years later and examining the defect, I doubt these guys could know that it wasn't performed on a ten- or 11- or 12-year-old originally.

[Thomas Graves]

8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Nah.... Assuming that what you say is accurate, the description that an "18-year-old defect" was as "expected" was probably just based on the medical history of the American Oswald and the fact that the mastoidectomy was performed when he was 6 years old.  By pulling a decomposing skull out of a grave years later and examining the defect, I doubt these guys could know that it wasn't performed on a ten- or 11- or 12-year-old originally.

Dear Jim,

We know that we'll never convince you or your buddies that you're wrong about there having been two Oswalds from 1950, or so, on.

Speaking for myself, I enjoy occasionally pointing out Armstrong's mistakes, you know, so that "newbies" here won't fall into that huge, stinking rabbit hole known as "Harvey and Lee."

--  Tommy

 

Harlene and Leeanne

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Nah.... Assuming that what you say is accurate, the description that an "18-year-old defect" was as "expected" was probably just based on the medical history of the American Oswald and the fact that the mastoidectomy was performed when he was 6 years old.  By pulling a decomposing skull out of a grave years later and examining the defect, I doubt these guys could know that it wasn't performed on a ten- or 11- or 12-year-old originally.

You may doubt it but they didn't. The Norton Report states:

"The mastoid prominence of the left temporal bone revealed an irregularly ovoid 1.0- by 0.5-cm defect pene­trating to the interior of the mastoid bone with the defect edges rounded and smooth."

 

DiMaio's new book says:

"Its man-made edges were rounded and smooth, healed but not natural. It was an old lesion that couldn’t be faked."

 

I should have a new article ready later this week. Nothing earth shaking but I think it will interest forum members.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Nothing in those quotes suggests this procedure could not have been performed on an older child.

Louise Robertson, a housekeeper employed by “Mrs. Oswald” in the summer of 1953, said “Mrs. Oswald” told her that she brought her son to New York so he could have mental tests at Jacobi Hospital.  She must have gotten the name of the hospital wrong, Jacobi apparently opened several years later, but this certainly could have described the opportunity for the procedure to have been done.
 

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Jim,

We know that we'll never convince you or your buddies that you're wrong about there having been two Oswalds from 1950, or so, on.

Speaking for myself, I enjoy occasionally pointing out Armstrong's mistakes, you know, so that "newbies" here won't fall into that stinking rabbit hole known as "Harvey and Lee."

--  Tommy

 

Harlene and Leeanne

 

bumped

Edited January 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[W. Tracy Parnell]

12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Nothing in those quotes suggests this procedure could not have been performed on an older child.

Louise Robertson, a housekeeper employed by “Mrs. Oswald” in the summer of 1953, said “Mrs. Oswald” told her that she brought her son to New York so he could have mental tests at Jacobi Hospital.  She must have gotten the name of the hospital wrong, Jacobi apparently opened several years later, but this certainly could have described the opportunity for the procedure to have been done.
 

Marguerite testified to the WC that she moved to NYC to be with family (John Pic). So once again you are relying on an anomaly in the record. And as you point out, Jacobi wasn't even open at the time.

[Jim Hargrove]

John Pic was the guy who testified that he didn’t recognize the picture of Harvey Oswald at the Bronx Zoo, even though he was supposedly his half-brother and they were supposedly lived together in Pic’s apartment on 92nd St. in NYC.  Pic identified all the pictures he was shown of LEE Oswald, but neither of the two he was shown of Harvey.  And the WC lawyers didn’t even dare to ask him why.

The impostor posing as “Marguerite Oswald” in NYC was really just a caretaker for Harvey.  This woman continuously got details wrong about her and her so-called family’s life, even during her time in NYC.  

While Harvey Oswald was in the Youth House, John Carro interviewed the short, heavy-set Marguerite Oswald impostor. This "Marguerite" told Carro that Oswald's father died at age 45, when in fact he died at age 42. She said that she and her husband were married for the first time on July 19, 1929, when in fact Marguerite Claverie and Robert E. Lee Oswald were married on July 15, 1933 and it was the second marriage for both. This "Marguerite Oswald" impostor told Carro that their family owned a home in Corning, Texas, but there was never a city in Texas with the name "Corning." She gave an incorrect date for Oswald's birthday, and then mistakenly identified her sister as Lillian Siguorette, when in fact her sister's name was Lillian Murrett. This impostor told Carro that her son was baptized at the Trinity Lutheran Church, but LEE Oswald was baptized at the Redeemer Lutheran Church in New Orleans. These are just a few of the errors made by the "Marguerite Oswald" impostor during her interview with John Carro, but she made many, many more errors as we shall see. [--JA, from website]

Read “Marguerite’s” WC testimony.  See how clear it is that she is reading from a script.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Mr Hargrove writes:

Quote

The chutzpah of anyone who would inform us that an anonymous call was central to a book—without actually reading the book—is stunning!
 

How much of the book does one need to read to understand the importance of the phone call claiming that Oswald's father and uncle were Hungarian? The topic is dealt with on pages 66 and 67, which I have indeed read. If it also appears elsewhere, please let me know the page numbers and I'll check it out.

Quote

The only significance of that call is the possible suggestion that Lee HARVEY Oswald was originally from Hungary.

The significance of the phone call is that it is the only piece of documentary evidence for the existence of a Russian-speaking boy named Oswald.

Quote

Contrary to what you suggest, the caller didn’t even say Oswald or his family spoke Russian. Where on earth did you get that?
 

I didn't get that from anywhere. It's the 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine which attempts to link the supposed Hungarian origins of Oswald's family with the Russian language. Have a look at the article you linked to earlier. It includes this sentence: "It should be noted that Russian is an often-spoken second language in Hungary, and it would hardly be surprising that Hungarian immigrants could speak Russian fluently." There is, of course, no attempt in the article or in the Harvey and Lee book itself to corroborate the claim that Oswald had Hungarian relatives, nor to justify the notion that any such relatives might have spoken Russian to a high level. Consequently, there is no reason to give the phone call any credibility at all. And without the phone call, there is no evidence for the existence of the fictional 'Harvey' Oswald.

 

Quote

Your position, apparently, is that the one and only “Lee Harvey Oswald” taught himself to read and write Russian by reading magazines and newspapers while he was serving in the Marine Corps. Is that correct?

No. What led you to that conclusion? It's quite possible that the historical Lee Harvey Oswald had received tuition in Russian while in the Marines. After all, he was tested in Russian while in the Marines. There is no need to suppose that the only choice is between self-study and a preposterous multi-year plot involving imaginary lookalikes, some of whom had been given unnecessary mastoidectomies at the age of six just on the off-chance that their bodies might need to be dug up years later. Even if that were the only choice, the self-study option would be far more credible than the imaginary lookalike plot.

At least we now have straight(-ish) answers to the questions about the mastoidectomy and the handwriting analysis. Desperate, but at least straight. Forget the common-sense explanations! It's all part of a huge conspiracy! The pathologists were in on it! The handwriting analysts were in on it!

Mr Hargrove appears to be distancing himself from the phone call without actually admitting that it's worthless as evidence for the existence of 'Harvey'. Now he claims that "We think Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel". Perhaps Mr Hargrove would be kind enough to share the documentary evidence for the existence of this Russian-speaking orphan? Mr Hargrove seems to have given up on Fictional Harvey the First, the child of Hungarian refugees, for whom no documentary evidence exists. Is there any documentary evidence for the existence of Fictional Harvey the Second, the World War Two orphan? Or is he, too, a figment of the imagination?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John Pic was the guy who testified that he didn’t recognize the picture of Harvey Oswald at the Bronx Zoo, even though he was supposedly his half-brother and they were supposedly lived together in Pic’s apartment on 92nd St. in NYC.  Pic identified all the pictures he was shown of LEE Oswald, but neither of the two he was shown of Harvey.  And the WC lawyers didn’t even dare to ask him why.

The impostor posing as “Marguerite Oswald” in NYC was really just a caretaker for Harvey.  This woman continuously got details wrong about her and her so-called family’s life, even during her time in NYC.  

While Harvey Oswald was in the Youth House, John Carro interviewed the short, heavy-set Marguerite Oswald impostor. This "Marguerite" told Carro that Oswald's father died at age 45, when in fact he died at age 42. She said that she and her husband were married for the first time on July 19, 1929, when in fact Marguerite Claverie and Robert E. Lee Oswald were married on July 15, 1933 and it was the second marriage for both. This "Marguerite Oswald" impostor told Carro that their family owned a home in Corning, Texas, but there was never a city in Texas with the name "Corning." She gave an incorrect date for Oswald's birthday, and then mistakenly identified her sister as Lillian Siguorette, when in fact her sister's name was Lillian Murrett. This impostor told Carro that her son was baptized at the Trinity Lutheran Church, but LEE Oswald was baptized at the Redeemer Lutheran Church in New Orleans. These are just a few of the errors made by the "Marguerite Oswald" impostor during her interview with John Carro, but she made many, many more errors as we shall see. [--JA, from website]

Read “Marguerite’s” WC testimony.  See how clear it is that she is reading from a script.

All that proves is that he wasn't familiar with that particular photo. What was stopping him from saying that there were two Oswalds if such were the case? Marguerite had a poor memory for details and did indeed make many mistakes. Many errors turn up during the Carro interview which leads to the conclusion that Carro was possibly responsible for at least some of  the mistakes during his transcription of the interview. Marguerite was reading from a script in a sense. A journalist whose name escapes me gave her some notes to work from as a courtesy.

[Jim Hargrove]

What you describe as a "courtesy" strikes me as witness tampering.  There is a new book just out that claims to identify the Marguerite Oswald impostor through 1940 Census records, supposedly a relative of the real Marguerite Claverie .  I haven't read it yet but will try to soon.

Here's what John Pic really said about his "brother's" appearance--and remember that these two guys lived in the same NYC apartment right around this time.

 

Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that? 
Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir.

Warren Commission attorney Albert Jenner questioned Pic and showed him a photograph of Oswald handing out FPCC literature:

 

Mr. Jenner: "There is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet?"
Mr. Pic: "No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him."
Mr. Jenner: "As to whether he was your brother?"
Mr. Pic: "That is correct."

Late in his testimony, Pic said:

Mr. PIC - Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous. This person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these purposes I mentioned, to do something about.

You will probably argue that he is speaking metaphorically, but there are clear indications throughout Pic's testimony that he doesn't believe he is seeing images of his own half-brother.  In many other cases, he does recognize his brother from the photographs he was shown, but the two pictures shown above are clearly of HARVEY Oswald, who was unrelated to John Pic.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Jim,

Marguerite was under no obligation to use the information the journalist gave her. I think he was honestly just trying to help. Pic was probably seeing those photos for the first time and for whatever reason didn't think they looked like his brother. BTW, what is the title of the book you refer to?

[Jim Hargrove]

 

From two different pages of the publisher's website (emphasis added by me):

by:
Robert E. Doran (Author)

ISBN: 9781495811234 ©2016
Price: $49.95 
Book Size: 7" x 10" , 450 pages
Category/Subject: HISTORY / General

Abstract:
Mistaken Identity is not just another “conspiracy” book. It is a critique of the Warren Commission. New forensic and evidentiary material not published, proves that two individuals known as “Lee Harvey Oswald” enlisted in the U.S. Marines in 1956 using the same birth certificate. Recent genealogical research identifies them as second cousins through intermarriage of second-generation French families in New Orleans. It created a nightmare of identity for the FBI. Diligent FBI field agents solved the Kennedy Assassination, but superiors thwarted their efforts. A 1965 secret report by Robert Kennedy reveals the money conduit that killed his brother.

---------------------------

Who Was Leon Voitier “Oswald? The name Leon Voitier existed as early 1938 when he was born in New Orleans, long before the Kennedy Assassination. In 1966, Dr. Richard Popkin theorized in his book, “The Second Oswald” that in 1963 two individuals used the same identity. According to FBI reports, two different “Lee Harvey Oswalds” were in different places at the same time. In 1963, Jim Garrison searched for a Leon “Oswald” as a Lee Harvey Oswald imposter in New Orleans. In the 1970s, Richard Case Nagell, a retired US Army Intelligence officer, exposed an “Oswald” look-alike named Leon Oswald. 

This book will identify who Leon Voitier was and why he ever existed in the first place. The 1964 Warren Commission’s “Marguerite Oswald” was presented as the mother of the accused assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald. She was not his biological mother, although she considered him as her “boy”. They lived together for longer periods then her biological son Leon “Oswald”. How this came about will be revealed when second generation French families played a pre-assassination game of deception in New Orleans for two decades and an ongoing family feud over the possession of the two “Oswald” boys. It caused a JFK nightmare of identity. Everyone connected with the murder of John Kennedy became compromised by a family secret of two second-cousins that looked alike. 

This book is not another “conspiracy” book. The research in this book was based on FBI reports contained in the Warren Commission material in the National Archives. Nor is it just another theory as who killed John Kennedy. Too many others have muddied up the waters, with claims and counterclaims, and speculations allowing what “William Torbitt” (a pseudonym) author of the so-called “Torbitt Document called the Cabal that murdered John Kennedy to remain clouded with too many sideshows. The murder of John Kennedy was all about money and those who love it more than their souls. 

“William Torbitt II”, unlike his 1970 predecessor, “William Torbitt”, is a composite of many JFK students who have touched on the truth without knowing it. In this research, the original “William Torbitt” will be identified. In addition, the identity of the Warren Commission’s “mother” of the accused assassin will be exposed. She was not the mother of the accused Lee Harvey Oswald, but closely related by marriage to the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald. Her biological son, Leon “Oswald” will be profiled and his role that paralleled his cousin, the accused assassin. In 1956, the two cousins enlisted in the US Marines a month and a half apart using the same birth certificate. With the recent release of the 1940 US Census, the two “Oswald” boys can now be identified. Related by marriage, the two dysfunctional New Orelans families that shaped the Kennedy Assassination can now be revealed. 

By 1944, Aminthe Jeanne Voitier, a first cousin to the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald, may have gained possession of the real Lee Harvey Oswald from his Orphan Home. Either she kidnapped him or an agreeable exchange was made. That is doubtful, since for the next twenty years Aminthe Jeanne Voitier seemed to be blackmailing the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald, or she may have given the real Lee Harvey Oswald to another family. It is possible that the real Oswald was later adopted by mistaken identity. 

The “Torbitt Document” reveals the US intelligence agency and their high-ranking US Military supervisors, along with the money trail that murdered John Kennedy. Their connection with four US Government agencies was the reason for the massive cover-up in 1964, which compromised the FBI and the new President. Their identity can now be traced through the so-called “Torbitt Document”, written in 1970 by an obscure defense attorney from Brownsville, Texas. He was forced to use the pseudonym “William Torbitt” for his personal safety from what he called his “Southwest Gunrunners”. For a decade, he defended many of Jack Ruby’s “Texas Gunrunners” of the turbulent 1950s and early 1960s. 

People ask for names of those responsible for what happen on November 22, 1963. The original “Torbitt Document” gives us many of those names. In fact over three hundred names of financial banks, low level renegade CIA “cowboys”, money laundering mobsters who handled the money conduit, and quite possibly some of those who were in Dealey Plaza, either as “spectators” or as shooters are found in the original “Torbitt Document”. For the first time, the identity of “William Torbitt” can now be revealed. 

The origin of the “Torbitt Document” is shrouded in mystery, but Robert F. Kennedy wanted to know what role Jimmy Hoffa had in the murder of his brother. RFK had friends in the US Justice Department who took on the covert role of a non-government investigation. They secretly examined the Warren Commission files and they followed the money trail. Follow the money and you will discover who the backers of Torbitt’s “Cabal” were and how a major Anti-Communist group know loosely as “Solidarist” carried out the removal of the Thirty-Fifth President of the United States from office by bullets, not ballots. 

Forget what you already know about the Kennedy Assassination and hang on for a very bumpy ride back though history. You will discover why we are now in our present extended military situation with the growth of what President Eisenhower in 1960 referred to as the Military Industrial Complex. This book will present the two sons who thought they were both named “Lee Harvey Oswald”, because their mothers told them so. They both joined the US Marines in 1956 using the same birth certificate. Their military dental records prove they existed in the US Marines at the same time but assigned to different military duties. Their different mothers helped create a lifetime of deception that compromised the FBI, CIA and Marina Oswald Porter. It was a case of mistaken identity. 

 

BEWARE: Anyone who might consider buying this book.  Google Chrome indicates the publisher's order page has insufficient security.  If I buy this book, I plan to get one of those prepaid bankcards to pay for it.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Sounds like Armstrong may have some competition now Jim. But seriously, if you read it please post your review. BTW, just in case lurkers didn't see the separate thread here is a link to my new article which discusses Armstrong and the Oswald birth certificate:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-truth-about-oswalds-birth.html