Jim Hargrove: Are these photos of the the tall, attractive Marguerite Oswald, or the short, dumpy Marguerite imposter?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Jim-another question if you will.

Armstrong on page 291-92 of H&L writes that the "fake" Marguerite "allegedly" moved to Waco TX and worked at the Methodist Orphans Home. He goes on to say that he thinks Marguerite never lived at 1410 Hurley but simply received mail there and that Velma Marlin of the FWST lived there. There is no citation so I wondered what the source of this is and what Armstrong believes is the significance.

[Sandy Larsen]

[deleted]

Edited February 1, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[W. Tracy Parnell]

20 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Jim-another question if you will.

Armstrong on page 291-92 of H&L writes that the "fake" Marguerite "allegedly" moved to Waco TX and worked at the Methodist Orphans Home. He goes on to say that he thinks Marguerite never lived at 1410 Hurley but simply received mail there and that Velma Marlin of the FWST lived there. There is no citation so I wondered what the source of this is and what Armstrong believes is the significance.

EDIT: For those interested, it is likely that Marguerite never lived at 1410 Hurley and only used the address to receive mail. FBI agent John Fain investigated the matter and found that calls to Marguerite’s listed phone number were to be forwarded to Velma Marlin, a cashier for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, whose listed address was 1410 Hurley. Marlin told Fain that Marguerite was “out of town” and Robert Oswald could probably provide her address. Fain contacted Robert who provided the address of 1111 Herring in Waco. On April 28, 1960, Fain interviewed Marguerite who confirmed her employment in Waco at the Methodist Orphans Home (HSCA Administrative Folder Q-10, 35). Obviously, since Marlin did not know Marguerite’s address when contacted by Fain, she must have been holding her mail rather than forwarding it. What is unclear is why it was necessary for Marlin to hold the mail in the first place since Marguerite had no trouble receiving mail at several rural addresses in Texas in her capacity as a caretaker-nurse.

Armstrong gets a couple things wrong in this section of his book though. He writes:

Quote

On March 22, Professor Hans Casparis of the Albert Schweitzer College in
Churwalden, Switzerland wrote a letter to Lee H. Oswald, MCAF, MACS 9, in Santa
Anna, California. The envelope in which the letter was mailed (published in the Warren
Volumes) shows forwarding addresses of 3124 W 5th, 1013 W. 5th, 3613 Hurley, and
1605 8th Avenue, which were handwritten on the envelope.

NOTE: 3613 Hurley was and is a non-existent address.

Armstrong is trying to imply to the reader that something ominous is going on here. Unfortunately for him, the address does exist as anyone can see on google:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3613+Hurley+Ave,+Fort+Worth,+TX+76110/@32.7180764,-97.3448132,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e7185139684b1:0xdcad93f1fc601fe4!8m2!3d32.7180764!4d-97.3426245

Amstrong also says Marguerite "allegedly" moved to Waco. But there is no reason to believe that she didn't. Marlin was holding her mail because she was "out of town." Robert referred the FBI to Waco and Marguerite verified her presence there at the Methodist Orphans Home. Why all these people were lying Armstrong doesn't say.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

8 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

a couple things wrong in this section of his book though. He writes:

Quote

On March 22, Professor Hans Casparis of the Albert Schweitzer College in
Churwalden, Switzerland wrote a letter to Lee H. Oswald, MCAF, MACS 9, in Santa
Anna, California. The envelope in which the letter was mailed (published in the Warren
Volumes) shows forwarding addresses of 3124 W 5th, 1013 W. 5th, 3613 Hurley, and
1605 8th Avenue, which were handwritten on the envelope.

NOTE: 3613 Hurley was and is a non-existent address.

 

I think you're wrong, Tracy. Google Maps shows 3613 Hurley Ave., Ft. Worth to be in the middle of an intersection.

Source

 

[Ray Mitcham]

Well spotted, Sandy.  Looks like the highest number in that street is 2261. It then becomes Ryan Avenue.

[Jim Hargrove]

To Sandy and Tracy,

All this minutia has it’s place, but I’d like to take a look at the Big Picture for a moment.  Let’s take time off from arguing about how many LHOs there were and how many mothers watched them.  Let’s consider the simple question: Was “Lee Harvey Oswald,” whether one man or more, a U.S. intelligence agent?  Was there an intel program that CIA accountant James Wilcott referred to as the “Oswald project?”

If LHO was just a mixed up kid along the lines the WC portrayed him, it is difficult to believe any of the “two Oswald” stuff.  But if there was an intelligence operation designed to send a Russian-speaking young man to Moscow with an American ID, then it strikes me that almost anything is possible.  Here again are my reasons to believe there was a CIA “Oswald project.”  Feedback would be appreciated!

21 Facts Indicating ”Lee Harvey Oswald” was a CIA Agent

(New entries in red)

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. In 1978, the government of Cuba announced that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was a “CIA AGENT.”

21. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, and “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

[Sandy Larsen]

8 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Well spotted, Sandy.  Looks like the highest number in that street is 2261. It then becomes Ryan Avenue.

Ray,

Interesting. The 3613 Hurley address doesn't exist at all... not even in the middle of the intersection. The middle of the intersection is at about 2300 Hurley. (The 2261 address you  mentioned is the address of the house on the corner. In other words, the last house before reaching the intersection. I'm sure you know this... I'm just informing the others.)

When Google Maps searched for 3613 it apparently "bumped" up against the 2300 limit and marked that location as though it were 3613.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

25 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

[deleted]

Well spotted, Sandy.  Looks like the highest number in that street is 2261. It then becomes Ryan Avenue.

I stand corrected, Hurley ends and turns into Ryan.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

27 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To Sandy and Tracy,

All this minutia has it’s place, but I’d like to take a look at the Big Picture for a moment.  Let’s take time off from arguing about how many LHOs there were and how many mothers watched them.  Let’s consider the simple question: Was “Lee Harvey Oswald,” whether one man or more, a U.S. intelligence agent?  Was there an intel program that CIA accountant James Wilcott referred to as the “Oswald project?”

No, I don't believe he was an intelligence agent. As Paul Trejo has pointed out, he doesn't look like such. He doesn't have the educational background, and he never had two nickels to rub together. Wilcott was investigated by the HSCA and his claims were found to be without merit. Trejo did a good job of answering the "21 points" in another thread. I might take a stab at it sometime when I have time. But right now-Jim, you are avoiding my question:

When are you guys going to put together a composite graphic of the two Marguerites to go with the one you already have for Harvey & Lee? I think it would be a great addition to your website. if you are not going to why now? What are you afraid of?

[Jim Hargrove]

You’re really filling up this page with nonsense, Tracy.  Back when I had only 15 points in the list of reasons why “Oswald” was a CIA agent, Paul Trejo tried to debate me point by point (or “by the numbers,” as he put it), but he failed miserably.  See the debate on THIS PAGE, about a quarter of the way down.  Paul Brancato read our posts.  In a message beginning “Paul T -,”  Mr. Brancato wrote, “Hargrove beat you fair and square, point by point, without plugging any books.”  Mr. Trejo never tried again to debate me “by the numbers.” Neither have you.  What are YOU afraid of?

The full title of the book you are devoting a considerable portion of your life trying to debunk is “Harvey and Lee: How the CIA Framed Oswald.”  Accusations against the  CIA are at the core of this book, and yet you fail time and time again to confront the clear issue that the entire assassination of JFK is drenched in CIA connections.

You write, “Oswald didn’t have the educational background,” as if fluency reading and writing Russian, and enough English to prepare that splendid and detailed report on the lives of Russian workers wasn’t education enough.  You say Oswald “never had two nickels to rub together,” and yet when he decided to “defect” to Russia, he had enough nickels to travel, to stay at first class European and Russian hotels, and to hire a private In-Tourist guide to show him Moscow, all of which, we’re told, came from saving that mostly non-convertible military script he got in the Marines.  Bet that script came in handy in Moscow!  Back in the U.S. he once again seemed to live like a church mouse until, in 1963, he apparently had nickels aplenty to travel again, this time to Russia via Cuba.  Or so we’re told.

At this late date, if you want to pretend the WC saga of LHO is true, I’m really going to lose confidence in your wisdom.  Your expressed opinion speaks volumes.

As to your demands about what we do or don’t do with pictures of the Marguerites, any number of them are on HarveyandLee.net and you can freely take issue with them.  Be my guest.  But please tell me once more, just for grins, that “Lee Harvey Oswald” wasn’t connected to the CIA or, as Paul Trejo says endlessly with a strait face, that he was a “CIA wannabe.” Hah-hah-hah!  
 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

I did read the debate you are referring to. Since the "CIA did it" theory is probably the most popular, Paul was "ganged up on" IMO and one member's statement does not indicate a victory. I thought his arguments were well presented. LHO did not IMO have the educational background required to be a CIA agent. Other people were sometimes hired by the agency for lesser roles but you are saying he was a full fledged CIA agent and I believe that was all but impossible. When LHO defected, he had money saved from his time in the USMC. The WC did a study and said it was feasible considering his frugal habits. As for the hotels, that was only a couple nights and he changed hotels once probably to save money.

I am not "demanding" you do anything with the Marguerite photos. And the photos may be on your website, but they are not identified as to the 2 Marguerites for the most part. It just seems strange that you don't have a composite graphic as you do for Harvey & Lee. That leads me to believe that either the evidence isn't there or you are afraid those like myself will be able to poke more holes in the theory.

As for your challenge to rebut your assertions, I will keep it on a to-do list but it is not a high priority right now.

[Jim Hargrove]

The more I think about it, doing a study of the Marguerite photos might not be a bad idea, but I don't know about those allegedly produced in the last few years by Robert "I Led Three Lives" Oswald.  I don't trust him.  For the photos that we know existed in the 1960s or at least by the time of the HSCA, it might be worth doing.  I'll put it on a to-do list also.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

14 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The more I think about it, doing a study of the Marguerite photos might not be a bad idea, but I don't know about those allegedly produced in the last few years by Robert "I Led Three Lives" Oswald.  I don't trust him.  For the photos that we know existed in the 1960s or at least by the time of the HSCA, it might be worth doing.  I'll put it on a to-do list also.

I think it would be a good idea because there is some confusion about which Marguerite is which. In some cases it is obvious (by looking at the narrative of the theory) but not all.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Part 3 of my series discusses the outlandish assertions of the "impostor" Marguerite and how they relate to Harvey & Lee.

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-two-marguerites-part-3.html