Shell casing on the roof

[Wim Dankbaar]

This is a fragment of a "report" a student sent me. I would appreciate any information on the veracity of this story:

Note: There is substantial evidence to say that the fourth shot was fired from atop the Dallas County Records Building. In 1975, a maintenance worker named Morgan found a spent 30.06 shell casing under a lip of tar on the roof of the Records Building. The casing had apparently been there for a long period of time, and showed evidence of use of a “sabot slug”. “Sabot” slugs are used to fit smaller caliber bullets into larger caliber shells (example: a 6.5 mm bullet in a 30.06 shell) A bullet of this nature could produce fragments traceable to Oswald’s rifle type. This spent shell was found on the area of the roof facing Dealey Plaza.

For example, where is that shell casing now? Can the ballistics experts (f.e. Al and John) tell me how this works with “sabot slugs”?

Wim

[James Richards]

Wim,

From my understanding, the son of the guy who found the shell, Dean Morgan, claims the shell casing dates from 1953 and was made at the Twin Cities Arsenal. How he knows that I don't know.

The casing is also supposedly still in Morgan's possession.

FWIW.

James

[Shanet Clark]

Wim and James

You two guys are miracle workers.

Every time something interesting comes up, you have names, memos, photos, etc.

All I can say is that I remember that report and have always thought it rang true.

Shanet

Wim,

From my understanding, the son of the guy who found the shell, Dean Morgan, claims the shell casing dates from 1953 and was made at the Twin Cities Arsenal. How he knows that I don't know.

The casing is also supposedly still in Morgan's possession.

FWIW.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Al Carrier]

This is a fragment of a "report" a student sent me. I would appreciate any information on the veracity of this story:

Note: There is substantial evidence to say that the fourth shot was fired from atop the Dallas County Records Building. In 1975, a maintenance worker named Morgan found a spent 30.06 shell casing under a lip of tar on the roof of the Records Building. The casing had apparently been there for a long period of time, and showed evidence of use of a “sabot slug”. “Sabot” slugs are used to fit smaller caliber bullets into larger caliber shells (example: a 6.5 mm bullet in a 30.06 shell) A bullet of this nature could produce fragments traceable to Oswald’s rifle type. This spent shell was found on the area of the roof facing Dealey Plaza.

For example, where is that shell casing now? Can the ballistics experts (f.e. Al and John)  tell me how this works with  “sabot slugs”?

Wim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim,

A photograph of a sabot collared bullet can be found in Bob Groden's "TKOAP". I will attempt to attach the photo here but no promises I can accomplish this.

I believe this casing was found under a rooftop compressor atop the DCRB. The purpose of a sabot is to allow the firing of a smaller diameter bullet from a larger bore rifle with a larger and more powerfully charged casing. In the case of a 30-06 casing firing a 6.5mm Carcano bullet, you will increase the standard velocity of the 6.5mm Carcano from 2000fps to above 2600fps, which is the average velocity of the 30-06. While this would increase the impact of the bullet much greater, you would compromise accuracy for several reasons; lack of stability as the bullet would not spiral properly down the barrel as it does not meet the barrel twist properly, because of the lack of stability and true trajectory from the barrel, and due to the fact that this bullet is not designed to carry this much velocity. If one was firing a level shot at a range within fifty yards, the bullet would likely strike somewhere on the target, but to fire from this range and elevation, it is highly doubtful it would come close to the limo.

Al

[Wim Dankbaar]

Thanks James and Al,

I just found this post of 1998 on Google.

william galmor wrote:

>

> I read somewhere that in the early 1970's a spent rifle cartridge was

> found on roof of building across the street from the book depository. Was

> this ever investigated?

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

The Twin Cities Arsenal is located in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I talked

with three engineers from the arsenal back in 1992 about the munitions

they loaded there. All three, in separate interviews, said that a sabot

round for that cartridge required special equipment that was ONLY

available at USArmy munitions plants; that sabots could not be hand loaded

into that type of cartridge until the early seventies when the equipment

first became available; that none of them were ever aware of special

rounds being loaded at the TCA, though it was possible. I asked if it

would necessarily require records and each said that ALL operations at the

Arsenal required records-- but getting to them was very difficult since

the plant was then being decommissioned.

In seven years the plant still is not fully decommissioned. I talked to a

USA Major there last year who said he knew the plant's history pretty well

and he didn't believe a special load would have been done there. He said

the only place it could have been made was in a special division of the

arsenal at St. Louis Missouri, which was known for engineering special

rounds and weapons. He was the only person of the four who asked why I

wanted to know about such rounds. When I told him it involved the JFK

assassination He refused to talk to me anymore.

Go figure....

The question a sabot round being fired at the motorcade has been around

for a long time. from what I recall, the wound to Connally's back produced

a "probability cone" which included the DRB. Anyone?

Claims by the ammo "experts " out there that such a round could not

maintain the needed stability and accuracy for a shot from the DRB seem

true enough. However, in talking to a USR sniper and an ex Green Beret

"hunter", both men said not only were such rounds possible, they had used

them.

Craig Roberts, you out there?

I was told Mary Ferrell and Jim Marrs are the experts on the history of

the cartridge. Gary probably knows a lot about it, too.

Dix

Edited November 26, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar

[William Plumlee]

Thanks James and Al,

I just found this post of 1998 on Google.

william galmor wrote:

>

> I read somewhere that in the early 1970's a spent rifle cartridge was

> found on roof of building across the street from the book depository.  Was

> this ever investigated?

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza.  The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

The Twin Cities Arsenal is located in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I talked

with three engineers from the arsenal back in 1992 about the munitions

they loaded there.  All three, in separate interviews, said that a sabot

round for that cartridge required special equipment that was ONLY

available at USArmy munitions plants; that sabots could not be hand loaded

into that type of cartridge until the early seventies when the equipment

first became available; that none of them were ever aware of special

rounds being loaded at the TCA, though it was possible. I asked if it

would necessarily require records and each said that ALL operations at the

Arsenal required records-- but getting to them was very difficult since

the plant was then being decommissioned.

In seven years the plant still is not fully decommissioned. I talked to a

USA Major there last year who said he knew the plant's history pretty well

and he didn't believe a special load would have been done there. He said

the only place it could have been made was in a special division of the

arsenal at St. Louis Missouri, which was known for engineering special

rounds and weapons. He was the only person of the four who asked why I

wanted to know about such rounds. When I told him it involved the JFK

assassination He refused to talk to me anymore.

Go figure....

The question a sabot round being fired at the motorcade has been around

for a long time. from what I recall, the wound to Connally's back produced

a "probability cone" which included the DRB. Anyone?

Claims by the ammo "experts " out there that such a round could not

maintain the needed stability and accuracy for a shot from the DRB seem

true enough. However, in talking to a USR sniper and an ex Green Beret

"hunter", both men said not only were such rounds possible, they had used

them.

Craig Roberts, you out there?

I was told Mary Ferrell and Jim Marrs are the experts on the history of

the cartridge.  Gary probably knows a lot about it, too.

Dix

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll put this into 'what its worth colume'.

In 1991. I was in Dallas, at the plaza, and a few city workers were fixing some sprinklers and generel landscape maint.

I found my scribbled notes from then:

I ask one of the workers: "... Have you ever found anything interesting in the ground when you have been working and digging around the Plaza?..".

I got a laugh from two of the workers.

"...I found four 22 shells and five bullets all scattered around here over the years..". He motioned with his hands and laughed. 'Tim, here found two 50cal bullets burried in the ground over threre'. He pointed to the north Knoll. "..Jay caught a guy dropping lead fragments around the ground next to the curb. He ask him to leave. Just last week we found three shell casings near the fence.. they were from a 38. Seems people like to plant things here in the plaza.., maybe they want it to grow...". They all laughed and went back to work. I said "Crap", and went to Love Field.

[William Plumlee]

Thanks James and Al,

I just found this post of 1998 on Google.

william galmor wrote:

>

> I read somewhere that in the early 1970's a spent rifle cartridge was

> found on roof of building across the street from the book depository.  Was

> this ever investigated?

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza.  The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

The Twin Cities Arsenal is located in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I talked

with three engineers from the arsenal back in 1992 about the munitions

they loaded there.  All three, in separate interviews, said that a sabot

round for that cartridge required special equipment that was ONLY

available at USArmy munitions plants; that sabots could not be hand loaded

into that type of cartridge until the early seventies when the equipment

first became available; that none of them were ever aware of special

rounds being loaded at the TCA, though it was possible. I asked if it

would necessarily require records and each said that ALL operations at the

Arsenal required records-- but getting to them was very difficult since

the plant was then being decommissioned.

In seven years the plant still is not fully decommissioned. I talked to a

USA Major there last year who said he knew the plant's history pretty well

and he didn't believe a special load would have been done there. He said

the only place it could have been made was in a special division of the

arsenal at St. Louis Missouri, which was known for engineering special

rounds and weapons. He was the only person of the four who asked why I

wanted to know about such rounds. When I told him it involved the JFK

assassination He refused to talk to me anymore.

Go figure....

The question a sabot round being fired at the motorcade has been around

for a long time. from what I recall, the wound to Connally's back produced

a "probability cone" which included the DRB. Anyone?

Claims by the ammo "experts " out there that such a round could not

maintain the needed stability and accuracy for a shot from the DRB seem

true enough. However, in talking to a USR sniper and an ex Green Beret

"hunter", both men said not only were such rounds possible, they had used

them.

Craig Roberts, you out there?

I was told Mary Ferrell and Jim Marrs are the experts on the history of

the cartridge.  Gary probably knows a lot about it, too.

Dix

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll put this into 'what its worth colume'.

In 1991. I was in Dallas, at the plaza, and a few city workers were fixing some sprinklers and generel landscape maint.

I found my scribbled notes from then:

I ask one of the workers: "... Have you ever found anything interesting in the ground when you have been working and digging around the Plaza?..".

I got a laugh from two of the workers.

"...I found four 22 shells and five bullets all scattered around here over the years..". He motioned with his hands and laughed. 'Tim, here found two 50cal bullets burried in the ground over threre'. He pointed to the north Knoll. "..Jay caught a guy dropping lead fragments around the ground next to the curb. He ask him to leave. Just last week we found three shell casings near the fence.. they were from a 38. Seems people like to plant things here in the plaza.., maybe they want it to grow...". They all laughed and went back to work. I said "Crap", and went to Love Field.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In reply to various private Emails: (from Tosh)

Wim and all;

I am not saying anything about anyone or their research. "Evidence has been planted in the Plaza over the years, for whatever reasons". ANYTHING that has surfaced in the past 30 or forty years is subject to question; including my story. Thats all. You can Read into what I say ,anything, all you want... The fact still remains 'Evidence has been planted and manipulated over the years for whatever reasons"... I don't know... have no way of knowing anything for sure.

In fact I have gone as far as I can go on all this Kennedy stuff,,, Its nothing but speculation at this point; about everything.., no factual research or anything constructive forth coming in reference to anything, or anything, I think I know. So I am taking my bat home; leaving the ball park. I will not play this game again... its going nowhere... Have a good one.. I wish you and all the best on your research. I can not help you or anyone anymore... time to move on and let the past bury itself... Its obvious everyone has their own answers to that day... I also wish them the best in their efforts to find the truth.

I have kept my word... I posted my paper... stay around in this mess to answer a few questions, like I said I would, which has led to only to more speculations and opinions, and resentments..., and now its time to live my life and move on. I'm gone. Out'ta here.... Think and say what you want about me..."Tosh has left the building" (or the ball park..,) The best to all who search for truth. Your Friend, Tosh

[Mike Rago]

Interesting thread describing shell casing found on top of Criminal Courts Building.

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Mike..here's a photo of a sabot. fwiw..thanks to john woods....b

[Mike Rago]

Bernice,

I have taken the liberty to post it as an image so all can see. I hope that is ok.

Very nice picture!

Thank you very much!

[Bernice Moore]

That's fine Mike., pleased you did as i thought it would show, but did not...??..thanks , yes a good one thanks to John...b

[Jackie Ow]

On 11/25/2004 at 4:02 PM, Wim Dankbaar said:

This is a fragment of a "report" a student sent me. I would appreciate any information on the veracity of this story:

Note: There is substantial evidence to say that the fourth shot was fired from atop the Dallas County Records Building. In 1975, a maintenance worker named Morgan found a spent 30.06 shell casing under a lip of tar on the roof of the Records Building. The casing had apparently been there for a long period of time, and showed evidence of use of a “sabot slug”. “Sabot” slugs are used to fit smaller caliber bullets into larger caliber shells (example: a 6.5 mm bullet in a 30.06 shell) A bullet of this nature could produce fragments traceable to Oswald’s rifle type. This spent shell was found on the area of the roof facing Dealey Plaza.

For example, where is that shell casing now? Can the ballistics experts (f.e. Al and John) tell me how this works with “sabot slugs”?

Wim

The way sabot slugs work (using this specific case) is:  you take Oswald's rifle and shoot several bullets through it into a water tank.  Take one of those bullets, wrap it inside a sabot, which is a plastic sleeve, and fire it out of a larger caliber gun.  It will go into its target with the previous scratch marks from Oswald's rifle but no marks from the actual shooting rifle.  The plastic sabot, being lightweight, will fall to the ground or the roof just a few feet past the muzzle and go nowhere near the target.  Sabots were a new technology at the time, and known to not a lot of people so this was an excellent gambit from the point of view of the people who designed the JFK assassination.  Like the XP-100 sniper pistols were a new invention at the time.

 

[Paul Cummings]

9 hours ago, Jackie Ow said:

The way sabot slugs work (using this specific case) is:  you take Oswald's rifle and shoot several bullets through it into a water tank.  Take one of those bullets, wrap it inside a sabot, which is a plastic sleeve, and fire it out of a larger caliber gun.  It will go into its target with the previous scratch marks from Oswald's rifle but no marks from the actual shooting rifle.  The plastic sabot, being lightweight, will fall to the ground or the roof just a few feet past the muzzle and go nowhere near the target.  Sabots were a new technology at the time, and known to not a lot of people so this was an excellent gambit from the point of view of the people who designed the JFK assassination.  Like the XP-100 sniper pistols were a new invention at the time.

 

I wonder if this gives the sound of fireworks going off which many witnesses described the first shot?

[Michael Crane]

Robert Groden has & owns the shell in question.