Bill Davy at VMI

[James DiEugenio]

Very nice talk by Bill in early September.  Topics include Wendell Roache INS interview to Church Committee about Oswald at 544 Camp Street, Scott Breckinridge interview with Church Committee, co author of CIA's IG report on Mafia CIA plots to kill Castro, denying they had any evidence of presidential approval for them, and what Warren really though of the WR as told to a personal friend.

Very interesting stuff:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/bill-davy-at-the-vmi-seminar

[Dan Doyle]

Agreed, this is interesting stuff, but he doesn't  give his thoughts on the larger enigma of the Clinton episode.

The Clinton, La. episode where LHO stands in a voter registration line for hours on end, the only white,  or 1 of 2 whites,  in a long line of blacks, has to have more significance than just proving an association between LHO, Ferrie, and Clay Shaw.  I mean why the heck did they drive 3 hours out of town into the heart of Klan territory, to have LHO stand in line for hours on end, while Ferrie and Shaw hung out in the background?  Didn't they have anything better to do?  As far as I can surmise, there are 3 possible explanations that purport to give a larger context to the Clinton excursion: 1, the MKULTRA angle, with Ferrie testing LHO;   2,  the Louisiana Communist Control Act, Right Wing angle, with LHO phishing for names to bolster Bannister's files on (supposed) subversives( like the files in the Paine's house?) ; and 3,  the East Louisiana State Mental Hospital angle, with LHO being colored as a Left Wing head case.  Of course, this is not to suggest that any one explanation would necessarily exclude any other of the others.  It could have been the perfect trifecta solution, where Ferrie was to test his hypnotic powers, where Bannister was to get more names for his files, and where Clay Shaw( of the CIA) was to enhance the Lone Nut legend (via the Mental Hospital). 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Dan;

Am I missing something?  Did Bill mention that incident in his talk?

[Dan Doyle]

Jim,

In the transcript of Bill Davy's presentation, the 14th paragraph  begins with....

" "The committee found that the Clinton witnesses ... " This may require a little explanation. What they're talking about here is the town of Clinton, Louisiana, which is just outside of Baton Rouge. It was uncovered during the Garrison Investigation and the subsequent Shaw trial that Lee Harvey Oswald was seen in Clinton, Louisiana at a voter registration incident with not only David Ferrie but Clay Shaw as well."

And he goes on about Clinton for a few more paragraphs. 

The point Davy is making is about the evidenced association of Oswald, Ferrie, and Shaw before 11/22/63 by way of the Clinton witnesses.  This was omitted in the WR, but confirmed by HSCA.  My point is about his omission( and others) to give purpose to the Clinton episode beyond that of evidencing the association of Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw; i.e., how does the Clinton episode fit into the larger plot of the conspirators or is it just some anomalous event.  

 

[James DiEugenio]

Oh, I understand.

My belief is that Bill thinks that Jim Garrison was correct on that.  The idea was to get Oswald's file into the system at Jackson State, and then have them switched from the employment cabinet to the patient cabinet after the assassination.

If one follows the trail Oswald took from Jackson to Clinton back to Jackson  and what Oswald reportedly said and asked, and what he was then told, then I think that conclusion is pretty much inevitable. Plus the fact that his file disappeared even though it was seen by three people.

The reason the ploy was not used is that the voter rally there was not anticipated. Because of that, too many witnesses saw Shaw and Ferrie with Oswald. If that had not been the case, I think it would have been used.  And you had some assets in the hospital that could have done the switching.  It I recall, one of the doctors there knew Sergio Arcacha Smith. 

[Michael Walton]

The real clincher for me is this:

"But there was an extra part of this story that hadn't been revealed, at least I'd never heard of it until I found this document, and that is when they took him into custody, Oswald would only speak in Russian. When the NOPD had him, they assumed he was a Russian. They called INS. Of course, they would have responsibility for foreign aliens and so forth.

One of Roache's associates, this guy, David Smith, went to the police station, and he recognized Oswald as being part of the Banister-Ferrie group and said, "Look, this guy's an American." Once Oswald had been outed, he stopped with the Russian. It was then at that point he asked to see an FBI agent, but it was not until the INS guy had come in and said, "We recognize him from our surveillance of David Ferrie and Guy Banister."

When the Church Committee investigators finally tracked down Roache and they finally got a hold of him, this is what he said: "I've been waiting 12 years for you guys. I've been waiting for 12 years to talk someone about this."

The above may seem trivial but at least to me it's really not.  It's very big actually because it shows that someone was leading LHO along, telling him to play his public game of being a Communist or whatever, stirring up trouble, to speak in Russian, causing attention to himself and obviously to be used months later in Dallas. Even the best fictional crime author could not have made something like this up.

What I've wondered about is this - if this was happening back in August, was the murder greenlit even then? Or was LHO being manipulated with no real plans for him to be used some way at a later date? The obvious answer is "probably yes" but I find it fascinating when you ask that question - just when was it greenlit?

[Dan Doyle]

Jim,

I guess one could say that the reason Oswald ended up in a Clinton was a collateral happenstance of his seeking employment in Jackson; that his "handlers" main purpose was to get LHO's personal info into the East Louisiana State Mental Hospital's personel files so it could be switched at a later date into the patient files by witting or unwitting  "assets" of the conspirators at the hospital.....but I think that's a little bit of a stretch. I mean if "they" wanted to color Oswald as a whacko mental patient  why go to all of trouble to drive 120 miles to Jackson/ Clinton area and publicly expose themselves as associates of the future "patsy"  when "they" could have directed Oswald to a "asset" shrink in NOLA, with little or no public exposure;  and then had the "asset" shrink do the coloring at a later date.  The effect would have been the same. And Ferrie and Shaw would have not created such a  blatant public association with Oswald.  

What are "agents" Ferrie and Shaw , a bunch of complete bunglers in Clinton who then plan/participate in the perfect hit in Dallas.  No I don't think so.   This whole Clinton affair flies in the face of a basic intelligence principle of limiting the exposure of the operation. 

[Dan Doyle]

retracted

Edited October 16, 2017 by Dan Doyle
clarification

[James DiEugenio]

Well I guess we disagree on that Dan.  IMO, if you follow the evidence, that is the time schedule, the witness testimony, I am pretty sure about that conclusion.  Placing someone in a sanitarium is stronger than getting him an appointment with a shrink.

 

Mike:

That is an interesting question that will probably never be solved.  But IMO, the evidence would indicate that LHO was being set up as one of the patsies while in New Orleans.  The other one that I am  pretty sure of is Valle in Chicago.

[Dan Doyle]

Jim,

Not to belabor the point, but your response is first time I've ever "heard"  of the institutionalization of Oswald angle.  Don't you think this would create timeline headache for the plotters( like when would this have happened?) when all they really needed was a professional diagnosis of Oswald as a whacko.  And let's not forget Oswald's "suicide" attempt while in Russia; that has to count for something.  I'm just as much as a Garrisonite as the next CTer,  but I think that he misses the mark in the Clinton affair(no pun intended).