Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Jack White]

Steve is clearly wrong. He is the one who has been duped.

Jack

[Jack White]

Since Steve thinks the CNN frame is faked, I suppose

he thinks this NBC frame of the same explosion is faked

also.

Jack

[Steve Ulman]

Jack -

Sorry, no disrespect, but I need more proof than your word that the "CNN Video" was shot at 9:0xAM.

Do you have any?

Did you review the links I provided?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Jack, nice to hear from you, I have no partizan reason for asking these questions, but as the mainstream media wont, I guess somebody must.I feel that the Bush administration may well know a lot more about this than most people suspect, as I said I will put some meat on the bones as I get time, hopefully others will comment on what I post, and a real debate will ensue. Steve.

[Matthew Lewis]

I just have one thing to say about number 4

Bush said "I saw a plane hit the tower".

There have been websites devoted to Bush's verbal errors and misspeakings. Yet he is supposed to have said this exactly correct? What if just one word were added?

I saw (that) a plane hit the tower.

Completely changes the meaning doesn't it?

Can you say definitively that he meant exactly what you think he meant?

[Len Colby]

Hi Steve

I'll try to answer your questions as best I can

1,Was America taken by surprise, and if so why?

According to CTist no, the Bush administration knew the attack was coming and purposely did nothing or they themselves planned the attack.

Defenders of the Bush administration say we were taken by surprise but blame the Clinton Administration for cutting back on intelligence and for not having killed or captured bin-Laden when it would have been easier.

I like most Democrats believe the US was taken by surprise due to the Bush Administration's incompetence and disinterest in terrorism before 9/11

2,Where was the president at the time of the first strike?

He was en-route to the elementary school in Florida where he read a story about a goat to some 7 year olds.

3,Did the president see the first tower struck, and if so how?

This is unclear, he arrived at the school after the first tower was struck.

4,Who knew what, and when did they know it?

I'm not sure. Some agencies like the FAA and NORAD might have known what was going on but when word first got to Bush is not clear

5,What did Andrew Card tell the President?

I'm not sure IIRC Michael Moore answered that in Fahrenheit 9/11

6,What is the role of the S/S in protecting the Presidents life. (Protocol)

They are supposed to defend his life at all costs even to the extent of "taking a bullet" for him as one agent did when Reagan was shot in 1981

7,If Airforce one is under threat why go on board? (Protocol)

The Bush people say they though he was safer in the air than on the ground

8, Interceptor Jets, asleep at the wheel? (protocol)

It depends on who you believe. Under US law the armed forces are general prohibited from being employed with in the US especially in combat roles, although there were some exceptions such as for use in drug interdiction and border patrol. These restrictions were lessened after 9/11.

IIRC the official story is that only 14 jets were on-call on the eastern seaboard and they weren't scrambled in time. In hindsight this seems strange but before 9/11 this kind of attack was unexpected. The only time the US came came under air attack previously was during WWII

9, Hide and seek, just where did the president go?

I think the Air Force one was delivered to Louisiana

10, Just what did happen to flight 93?

That depends on who you believe. The overwhelming evidence supports the official story that it crashed in a field in Pennsylvania after passengers overpowered the hijackers.

CTists claim that it was shotdown

I have a whole lot more, but these will do for a start. Steve.

I found a good article which you should find informative. It is written from a CT point of view but unlike most CT sites documents it's claims. I just disagree with their conclusions.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timelin...restingday.html

The previously mentioned PM article is once again highly recommended. CTists hate but I've never seen them rebut any of its info. The best they can do is put it down ala Jack White.

To CTists Bush's behaviour that morning is evidence that he already knew. I disagree. I think if anything it is evidence he didn't know. Bush was widely criticized for not ending the photo-op immediately and taking charge. I imagine if Bush and Rove planned 9/11 they would not have put him in such a ridiculous situation. That would have scripted a way for him to look more presidential. Bush and Rove aren't stupid and if they knew what was coming they would not have squandered a chance for Bush to appear presidential and heroic. Remember when the stuffed socks in the crotch of his flightsuit on the aircraft carrier? Instead he looked like a buffoon

Edited October 18, 2005 by Len Colby

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I just have one thing to say about number 4

Bush said "I saw a plane hit the tower".

There have been websites devoted to Bush's verbal errors and misspeakings. Yet he is supposed to have said this exactly correct? What if just one word were added?

I saw (that) a plane hit the tower.

Completely changes the meaning doesn't it?

Can you say definitively that he meant exactly what you think he meant?

Matthew, there's no debate about what GWB said, it is a matter of public record. He said loud and clear on TWO occasions that he saw the first plane strike the tower, to claim any thing else is semantics. He further claimed to have witnessed this phenomonia on a television at the school,whats wrong with this statement?

1, There was no TV set in the area he claimed to have seen it.

2,The first strike was not broadcast live, for obvious reasons.

3, He can not be refering to the second strike,as he was in the classroom listening to the children read when that occured.

Make of it what you will, but he was not misquoted, or taken out of context.Steve.

Len, thank you for your post, some good points, I shall respond shortly.

Edited October 18, 2005 by Stephen Turner

[Matthew Lewis]

I did not say that he was misquoted. I said he is famous for misspeaking. He does not speak correctly all the time and says some very stupid things. Adding the one word I mentioned to his statement would change the meaning. I leave out that word often when not carefully choosing my words and I know many others do also. He did have a TV in the limo and may have seen the news coverage there. So I will say again, can you definitively state that he meant what you think he meant?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I did not say that he was misquoted. I said he is famous for misspeaking. He does not speak correctly all the time and says some very stupid things. Adding the one word I mentioned to his statement would change the meaning. I leave out that word often when not carefully choosing my words and I know many others do also. He did have a TV in the limo and may have seen the news coverage there. So I will say again, can you definitively state that he meant what you think he meant?

Matthew, as I said in my previous post it is a matter of public record, and it was said twice, so no I dont believe it was a "misspeak" If you wish I will post the exact words he used with times and dates there really is no need to interprite the man, he is unusually clear in his meaning. Under these circumstances I see no need to think that he did not mean what he said, and you will need a lot stronger evidence than "Maybe the clutz tripped over his tongue again"because that is pure speculation on your part, and with respect, cannot be used to refute the record..I also note that you have nothing to say about his claim to have witnessed it on a TV at the school, or perhaps he was just misspeaking again?

Edited October 18, 2005 by Stephen Turner

[Steve Ulman]

Steve-

Why do you assume that when Bush said "I saw a plane hit the tower" - that he met he saw it in real time?

I can say - "I saw Martin Luther speak in front of the Lincoln Memorial." - That is an absolutely true statement. At 50 I am old enough to have seen it in real time. I visited DC many times in my youth.

Can you tell from that statement if I saw it in real time or on film?

I can also say "I listened to the Apollo 8 crew read from Genesis." - Again absolutely true.

Can you tell from that statement if I heard it in real time or on tape?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Steve, because he claimed to have seen it happen on a TV when he entered the school. And thought "Gee there's a bad pilot" perhaps I need to post his actual words so you can see for yourself. regards Steve.

[Steve Ulman]

Steve, because he claimed to have seen it happen on a TV when he entered the school. And thought "Gee there's a bad pilot" perhaps I need to post his actual words so you can see for yourself. regards Steve.

Funny thing - My first thoughts when told that a plane hit one of the towers - How can a pilot not see and avoid the WTC? Of course my first thoughts was that the plane was much smaller than a 767.

Also for your information - I left my building for a meeting @ 8:50am on 9-11-01 and was listening to NYC radio stations (bouncing between two of them) and until the second plane hit all of the talk was that the first hit was an accident. Once the second plane hit - no doubts about it being a terrorist attack.

Funny how much clearer things are with hindsight.

[Jack White]

Steve, because he claimed to have seen it happen on a TV when he entered the school. And thought "Gee there's a bad pilot" perhaps I need to post his actual words so you can see for yourself. regards Steve.

He saw in IN THE LIMO on the way to the school, on a CCTV hookup, which

MEANS THAT THE EVENT WAS COVERTLY TELECAST BY INTELLIGENCE

AGENCIES!

Jack

[Matthew Lewis]

He saw in IN THE LIMO on the way to the school, on a CCTV hookup, which

MEANS THAT THE EVENT WAS COVERTLY TELECAST BY INTELLIGENCE

AGENCIES!

Or he had satellite TV in the limo and was watching CNN. Can you prove he didn't? You're assigning a motive based on a single word. Sounds more like you want there to be something sinister behind the statement so you grasp at any straws you can. Doesn't surprise me from what else I know abut you though.

And again, he never said he saw the impact, he said he saw it had happened. It doesn't even have to be a misspeak. People talk like that all the time and others know what they mean. And I'm done with this now. You want there to be something sinister and therefore won't look at it objectively. It is no use to argue with someone like that.

[Len Colby]

Jack, Steve

Bush said " I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0011204-17.html

The second plane hit at 9:03 AM and was broadcast live [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_attacks ] even the CT article that I sighted previously can't place Bush in the classroom before the 2nd plane hit.

Do you have any proof otherwise? He could have been confused and thought it was a replay. If 9/11 was an inside job and Bush saw some secret broadcast of the 1st tower being hit in the limo why would he say he saw in the school?

He comments prove nothing.