Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Len Colby]

Steve,

Can you provide a link to those articles.

You do raise some very good questions. Part of the problem is that Intelligence agencies recieve a multitude of warnings and reports of possibly pending attacks. Too many indeed to pass them all to the White House. The first part of their job is intelligence gathering, the second part is assesment to detmine if the reports are reliable. There were undoubtably many failures in both areas especially during the Bush administration which virtually ignored the threat of terrorism. Another problem is that a lot of intelligence is not actionable, it's not specific enough to take action. It's possible that if the political leadership had shown more interest the inteligence agencies might have done more verify and get more details regarding those threats, but that unfortunately wasn't the case.

Was there something more sinester in these "failures"? Did the Bush "junta" plan or have foreknowledge of the attacks? Possible but I have yet to see any convincing evidence.

IIRC it's not correct to say the US had repeated warnings of the WTC being targeted. Some documents were captured in the Phillipeans which out lined a 9/11 like attack on the towers but that was the only indication I have heard of that they would be attacked.

I am not sure that allegations that, "all...possible measures [to prevent the attacks] were cut short, such was the case with ongoing investigations by FBI agents attempting to confirm the impending 11th Sept terrorist attacks, whose leads were severed by FBI command without explanation, a situation maintained with the complicity of the Attorney General" have been substatiated. Again a link back to the articles would be helpful.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Len, thanks for your responce. I will dig around and provide the links you ask for. I should say that they appeared in the London Times, a very serious, right wing publication not known for conspiracy theories.

just for the record, my postion on this subject is not that "the govmint" did it, but that for poitical, and strategic gain, they turned a blind eye to evidence that should have set alarm bells ringing. I will attempt to develope this in a series of questions on this thread. Look foward to debating with you..Steve.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Steve,

It is quite possible that Bush lied, I wouldn't put that past him. This is not evidence that he had any foreknowledge of or planned 9/11.

Do you have a link back to the article you quoted? Did the original article have links back to the publications it cited? I believe you, but in the case of the article I'd like to check. My experience with Fetzer has taught me always to check that a cited source said what it was purported to have said.

My rationalisation of Bush's comments are as follows 1] he probably heard about the 1st strike in his limo, 2] he saw the 2nd plane hit live when he got to the school and thought it was a replay, 3] Andy Card came in and told Bush that "America is under attack" that both towers had been struck by 2 different planes.

His first comment doesn't contradict this scenario, his 2nd one does but I already explained that.

If it can be documented that be was in the classroom before 9:03 then yes it would be undeniable that he lied. But we already know he is a xxxx, it wouldn't be evidence of a conspiracy. If indeed it could be proven he was in the classroom at the time of the 2nd strike it's strange that none of his aides caught it and corrected him or if they did that he repeated the same lie a few months later.

Len, will provide the link inthe next couple of days, I certainly dont blame you for double checking.

The problem with Bush seeing the second strike, and thinking it was a replay of the first is he would have had to not notice the thick black smoke literally pouring from the North tower,not very likely IMHO.. Steve.

[Len Colby]

Len, thanks for your responce. I will dig around and provide the links you ask for. I should say that they appeared in the London Times, a very serious, right wing publication not known for conspiracy theories.

just for the record, my postion on this subject is not that "the govmint" did it, but that for poitical, and strategic gain, they turned a blind eye to evidence that should have set alarm bells ringing. I will attempt to develope this in a series of questions on this thread. Look foward to debating with you..Steve.

It might be more of a conversation than a debate, our positions aren't that far apart. If you find reliable info showing that Bush knew, I won't challenge it just for the sake of debate. I hate Bush, his father was bad enough but atleast Bush Sr. wasn't crazy.

What do you think about all those "WTC was a demo job" "the hole in the Pentagon was too small it was hit by a missle" theories?

[Len Colby]

I asked Jack White and other 9/11 CTists [in other forums] if they could name any civil engineers or architects who back their contention that the collapse of the WTC buildings was due to controlled demolition and that the Pentagon was hit by missile. So far all they've been able to come up with are two engineers and an "architect". The engineers made vague comments a few days after 9/11, before any research had been done. One said he was misunderstood [Romero] and the other [shi] hasn't been heard from since. David Heller the "architect" it turns out isn't really an architect. He has a MA from the San Francisco Institute of Architecture, but the school is an unaccredited* "diploma mill" [which means its graduates can't apply for licensing or legally work as architects]. Nor does SFIA offer courses in the engineering side of architecture which would justify calling him and expert. Typical classes taught are "3-D MODELING THE EASY WAY", "COMMUNICATING YOUR DESIGNS: PERSPECTIVE DRAWING & MEDIA", and "Buddhist Architecture" **.

[click this link for more details http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5153 ]

This to me raises a basic question. If the FEMA/NIST/American Society of Civil Engineers report was so obviously wrong I would expect hundreds of architects, civil and structural engineers to question its findings but apparently not a single one has.

One CTist objected when I compared his theories to creation science, but the parallels are striking. Like creation science and Holocaust denial, "WTC was a demolition job"/ "a missile hit the Pentagon" CTs have no backing from experts in the field. Proponents of all three theories trot out "experts" with advanced degrees, but they are all in unrelated subjects, there are PhDs in Political Science and Electrical Engineering who say the Holocaust was a hoax, and PhDs in Philosophy and Classics who say God created the World in six days, and you have PhDs in Chemistry and Kinesiology who say the WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition etc.

Another similarity is that all three "theories" are ideologically based: backers of creation science are fundamentalist Christians, WTC/Pentagon CTists by and large have extreme right or extreme left political views and Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites.

I know it's not fair to tar the entire "9/11 Truth Movement" with this but Holocaust deniers all back the 9/11 CTs. The American Free Press, Christopher Bollyn, John Kaminski, Serendipity, Rense, 9-11 Strike.com, Jane Christensen, David Irving, whatreallyhappened.com, and APFN are just a few of the people/sites that deny the Holocaust and push 9/11 CTs.

I t's not the entire "9/11 Trurh" movement but there is a strong anti-Semetic undercurrent to many of the CT's [indeed many of the CTist are Jewish themselves] :

1] "No Jews [or Israelis] were killed in the WTC, they were warned to stay at home",

2] "9/11 was carried out by the Jewish controlled NWO in order to justify a war for Israel",

3] Despite the fact Bush has no Jews in his cabinet, many CTs say that 2nd level Jewish [aka dual loyalists] sub-Secretaries and advisers like Perle, Wolfowitz, Kristol are the ones who really control the Bush administration [the old ZOG myth].

4] "Larry Silverstein was in on it as part of an insurance scam", many of the people who push this make a point of pointing out his heritage.

5] The "Jewish controlled media" is said to be responsible for covering up the truth about 9/11

As far as I can tell oilempire.com [whose webmaster is Jewish] and democraticunderground.com are the only "9/11 Truth" sites to renounce connection with anti-Semites.

I find it disturbing that people who purport to be progressive/liberal/Socialist etc. seem to be all to willing to cooperate with people who have such repugnant views.

* http://www.sfia.net/FAQ.asp

** http://www.sfia.net/Courses.asp

[Guest]

I asked Jack White and other 9/11 CTists [in other forums] if they could name any civil engineers or architects who back their contention that the collapse of the WTC buildings was due to controlled demolition and that the Pentagon was hit by missile. So far all they've been able to come up with are two engineers and an "architect". The engineers made vague comments a few days after 9/11, before any research had been done. One said he was misunderstood [Romero] and the other [shi] hasn't been heard from since. David Heller the "architect" it turns out isn't really an architect. He has a MA from the San Francisco Institute of Architecture, but the school is an unaccredited* "diploma mill" [which means its graduates can't apply for licensing or legally work as architects]. Nor does SFIA offer courses in the engineering side of architecture which would justify calling him and expert. Typical classes taught are "3-D MODELING THE EASY WAY", "COMMUNICATING YOUR DESIGNS: PERSPECTIVE DRAWING & MEDIA", and "Buddhist Architecture" **.

[click this link for more details http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5153 ]

This to me raises a basic question. If the FEMA/NIST/American Society of Civil Engineers report was so obviously wrong I would expect hundreds of architects, civil and structural engineers to question its findings but apparently not a single one has.

One CTist objected when I compared his theories to creation science, but the parallels are striking. Like creation science and Holocaust denial, "WTC was a demolition job"/ "a missile hit the Pentagon" CTs have no backing from experts in the field. Proponents of all three theories trot out "experts" with advanced degrees, but they are all in unrelated subjects, there are PhDs in Political Science and Electrical Engineering who say the Holocaust was a hoax, and PhDs in Philosophy and Classics who say God created the World in six days, and you have PhDs in Chemistry and Kinesiology who say the WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition etc.

Another similarity is that all three "theories" are ideologically based: backers of creation science are fundamentalist Christians, WTC/Pentagon CTists by and large have extreme right or extreme left political views and Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites.

I know it's not fair to tar the entire "9/11 Truth Movement" with this but Holocaust deniers all back the 9/11 CTs. The American Free Press, Christopher Bollyn, John Kaminski, Serendipity, Rense, 9-11 Strike.com, Jane Christensen, David Irving, whatreallyhappened.com, and APFN are just a few of the people/sites that deny the Holocaust and push 9/11 CTs.

I t's not the entire "9/11 Trurh" movement but there is a strong anti-Semetic undercurrent to many of the CT's [indeed many of the CTist are Jewish themselves] :

1] "No Jews [or Israelis] were killed in the WTC, they were warned to stay at home",

2] "9/11 was carried out by the Jewish controlled NWO in order to justify a war for Israel",

3] Despite the fact Bush has no Jews in his cabinet, many CTs say that 2nd level Jewish [aka dual loyalists] sub-Secretaries and advisers like Perle, Wolfowitz, Kristol are the ones who really control the Bush administration [the old ZOG myth].

4] "Larry Silverstein was in on it as part of an insurance scam", many of the people who push this make a point of pointing out his heritage.

5] The "Jewish controlled media" is said to be responsible for covering up the truth about 9/11

As far as I can tell oilempire.com [whose webmaster is Jewish] and democraticunderground.com are the only "9/11 Truth" sites to renounce connection with anti-Semites.

I find it disturbing that people who purport to be progressive/liberal/Socialist etc. seem to be all to willing to cooperate with people who have such repugnant views.

* http://www.sfia.net/FAQ.asp

** http://www.sfia.net/Courses.asp

I am afraid that anti semitism is the oldest "conspiracy theory" of them all. Like most it lacks any respect for academic rigour, integrity and historical fact

[Evan Burton]

Stephen,

As anyone who has been on the 'coal face' of a public line to large organisation can tell you, there are a lot of 'nutter' calls that come through. When I was the senior Duty Fleet Operations Officer, I had everything from bomb threats to people wanting us to have their latest inventions.

I have no doubt that various agencies of the US government received calls warning them about attacks. There may have even been warnings about a specific attack, using aircraft, to the WTC on the actual date it happened. I don't know - but it may well have happened.

The problem is: how do you sort out the hoax calls from the genuine? It must be an incredibly difficult job.

My understanding is that the Secret Service get hundreds of calls - per week - claiming assination attempts on the President. How do you give creedence to one call and discount another?

US Federal agencies may have well got warning of the attacks. They may have improperly disregarded them. Can you say, however, in the same position that you would not have done the same? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Cheers and stay well.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Evan, good to hear from you.

Yes what you say has some truth to it, I work for the national health service in a psychiatry dept, we work with very vulnerable, and sometimes dangerous individuals and it is imperative to ensure good chanels of communication between different groups of mental health professionals, despite our best efforts though this is often not the case. However the nature, and sheer amount of intellegence being received pointing to an attack of this nature, both from domestic sources and foriegn intellegence groups should, in my opinion, have "raised hackles"far more than it appeared to, and remember this thread deals with the question, Was America taken by surprise, not could the attacks have been prevented. Steve.

Len, I know of no firm evidence that proves 911 was a domestic job,in fact much of the evidence pointing to this was recieved by the Clinton administration. However this is not my area of research, so I will not presume to answer for those who have researched this question. Regards Steve.

[Evan Burton]

Evan, good to hear from you.

Yes what you say has some truth to it, I work for the national health service in a psychiatry dept, we work with very vulnerable, and sometimes dangerous individuals and it is imperative to ensure good chanels of communication between different groups of mental health professionals, despite our best efforts though this is often not the case. However the nature, and sheer amount of intellegence being received pointing to an attack of this nature, both from domestic sources and foriegn intellegence groups should, in my opinion, have "raised hackles"far more than it appeared to, and remember this thread deals with the question, Was America taken by surprise, not could the attacks have been prevented. Steve.

Len, I know of no firm evidence that proves 911 was a domestic job,in fact much of the evidence pointing to this was recieved by the Clinton administration. However this is not my area of research, so I will not presume to answer for those who have researched this question. Regards Steve.

I think the attacks could have been prevented, but it is only with the benefit of hindsight that we could truely place importance on the specific warnings.

[Steve Ulman]

Ive noticed the same thing about most 911 CT sites and believe Andy's analysis is unfortunately correct.

I do want to make one thing clear - I have NEVER noticed this bias in Stephen or Jack. While we may disagree, I want to make sure they don't get tarred with the same brush.

[edit for spelling - even though I use a spell check - argh]

Edited October 21, 2005 by Steve Ulman

[Steve Ulman]

Something for all to remember -

Prior to 911 our domestic (FBI / Police) and foreign (CIA/NIA/DOD) intelligence services did not compare notes. Not because of interdepartmental bickering, it was against the law! (duh!) Some one correct me, but CIA/DOD/NIA were allowed to share information on foreign intelligence, but rarely did due to bickering.

Because of this separation - what may look like slightly disjointed information with hindsight, was much more fragmented in reality.

[Jack White]

Ive noticed the same thing about most 911 CT sites and believe Andy's analysis is unfortunately correct.

I do want to make one thing clear - I have NEVER noticed this bias in Stephen or Jack. While we may disagree, I want to make sure they don't get tarred with the same brush.

[edit for spelling - even though I use a spell check - argh]

Some of my best friends are Jewish. Although Jews may be involved, I do

not be believe in the GRAND JEWISH CONSPIRACY.

But the conspiracy is much broader. I would call it the GRAND BANKING

CONSPIRACY. The fact that some bankers were Jewish is incidental in my

opinion. The Mossad is pervasive, however, in many nefarious activities.

Jack

[Len Colby]

One of the silliest arguments that 9/11 CTist put forward is the "the hole in the Pentagon is to small" nonsense.

On July 28, 1945 a B -25 Mitchell bomber crashed into the 34th Street side if the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. The wingspan of the plane was 68 feet [21 meters] ( http://www.acepilots.com/planes/b25.html ), I couldn't find specs. for the size of the fuselage but it apears to be about 10 feet x 10 feet [3 x 3 meters]. The resulting hole was only 5 x 6 meters [16.5 x 20 feet] ( http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/...News8-0112.html ) the hole was less than a third of the wingspan but was slightly larger than the size of the fuselage.

A 757 has a much wider wingspan than a B-25, 124 feet, but it's fuselage is about the same size 12.3 x 13.5 feet. The hole in the Pentagon was about 16 x 20 feet [ http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pe...e_evidence.html ] just about the same size as the hole in the Empire State Building.

The abovetopsecret link above offers an excellent debunking of the "no plane hit the Pentagon" BS. Ironiclly ATS is a CT site.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Whoa, folks thats my last post on this subject, some of my clients at work are of Jewish extraction,and as the theraputic relationships I attempt to biuld are based on trust, and cooperation it is professional suicide for my name to be linked with anti-semetic beliefs in any way shape or form, I know this is not what was meant, but inferences are so easily drawn, and once formed, damned difficult to dispel. I dissassociate myself from any web-sites, weblogs, books or articles, that attempt to link the events of Sept 11th 2001 to any kind of Jewish conspiracy, cabal, or assorted nonsence.. Stephen Turner.

Edited October 22, 2005 by Stephen Turner

[Len Colby]

Whoa, folks thats my last post on this subject, some of my clients at work are of Jewish extraction,and as the theraputic relationships I attempt to biuld are based on trust, and cooperation it is professional suicide for my name to be linked with anti-semetic beliefs in any way shape or form, I know this is not what was meant, but inferences are so easily drawn, and once formed, damned difficult to dispel. I dissassociate myself from any web-sites, weblogs, books or articles, that attempt to link the events of Sept 11th 2001 to any kind of Jewish conspiracy, cabal, or assorted nonsence.. Stephen Turner.

Steve,

As one of the more thoughtful members of this forum I would value your continued participation in this thread.

I'm Jewish if any such accusations crop up I will give you official dispensation - LOL