Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[John Simkin]

Scott maybe an expert in English literature, I’ve been told he did excellent work regarding the assassination but his 9/11 research leaves something to be desired.

1) It not clear how many intercepts there were before 9/11 it does seem there were 67 scrambles or diversions of planes already in the air in the period Scott cited, but scrambles don’t always lead to intercepts. Also according to various sources none of those intercepts except Payne Stewarts’s were of civilian aircraft flying over the US. This important because NORAD’s mission is to protect the US and Canada from hostile aircraft coming from outside their boarders. http://911myths.com/html/67_intercepts.html

2) Funny if there really were so many intercepts as the likes of Scott, Fetzer, Griffin etc like to make out they could cite and example of an intercept over the US other than the golfer’s plane. It would help their credibility if they would correctly cite the intercept time which was 82 minutes much longer than the amount of time any of the 9/11 planes were in the air after the FAA became aware they were hijacked. In the case of the Stewart intercept his plane was a much easier target it was flying in a straight line in uncrowded airspace with its transponder on and the 1st fighter to reach it was already in the air. To me his correction was more damming than the original mistake. If he discovered that the intercept took well over an hour why didn’t he tell his readers that? http://911myths.com/html/67_intercepts.html

See also: http://911myths.com/html/stand_down.html

3) His take on the June 1 memo was as unreliable as the rest as this part of his talk. http://911myths.com/html/hijack_assistance_approval.html

See also http://www.911myths.com/html/cheney_in_charge_of_norad.html

William or anybody else what did you find especially compelling in this?

Peter Dale Scott has agreed to answer questions on the forum when his book is published.

[Len Colby]

Perhaps "under the sway of" is too strong and "influenced by" is more apt. I think the latter is justified because AFAIK he only became part of the "'truth' movement" after the aforementioned people and included articles the wrote in a book he edited.

BK responds: Colby wrote: "...and included articles the wrote in a book he edited."

What does that mean?

That was a typo it should have read “AFAIK he only became part of the "'truth' movement" after the aforementioned people did and he included articles theY wrote in a book he edited.

Peter says in the talk that the intercept have been discussed over and over and that he didn't want to get into it except to note that the issue of why none of the hijacked planes were intercepted remains unresolved.

I didn’t want to make a big issue over it. He said things that I knew were wrong and I pointed it out.

Now does anyone want to discuss COG on 9/11?

Perhaps you could start the ball rolling and tell us why you think this is interesting and important.

And Len, like Bush, I like to give nicknames to people and will refer to Dick Chaney as Lon Chaney from now on,

Quite appropriate the real monster is still among us. On the other hand if I were a fan or descendant of Chaney I’d be offended.

…and will come up with an appropriate one for you too.

No need for that Bill

And if you haven't read PDS and don't intend to, why are you involved in this discussion at all?

How can my comments be off topic if I started out replying to something he said that you posted. From what I gather you are a friend and admirer of PDS so this seem to be a sensitive issue with you. All I said was that was that what he said was inaccurate, many of the people whose articles were included in his last book were unreliable and I won’t be rushing out to but his book. I never questioned the quality of his non-9/11 research.

I would be interested in ‘hearing’ why or you or anybody else here thinks the rest of what he spoke about was especially interesting.

Mike wrote:

Given Peter Dale Scott's reputation, and your track record on this Forum re 9/11, it would seem that you would be enthusiastic to read it. Then you could appear to be informed in your efforts to demonstrate that he is a xxxx or a poor researcher, if that turns out to be the case.

I don’t buy or read books just to debunk them, the only exception was Fetzer’s absurd tome about the Wellstone crash and in that case only because he went on and on about how I couldn't judge his theory based simply on his online articles on the subject. I choose to read books that I will find entertaining and/or informative.

And forbid that you might learn something that you don't already know.

I am constantly seeking to widen my knowledge base but I don’t have the time to read every book ever published about every subject that strikes my interest.

According to Dr. Scott only two chapters of his new book are going to deal with 9/11. Here are some of Peter Dale Scott's thoughts written almost 3 years ago, on the 9/11 Commission Report. Perhaps his views have changed since then:

<snip>

Here is an essay by Dr. Scott entitled The Forthcoming Iraq War And How How Oppose It:

Both of those were well written essays I largely agree with both except for the stuff about buying oil in Euros. Based on the talk bill posted and the authors he worked with in for his last book his views about 9/11 seem to have changed

Edited June 16, 2007 by Len Colby

[Michael Hogan]

Peter Dale Scott has agreed to answer questions on the forum when his book is published.

John has done a remarkable job. Members have had the opportunity to communicate, ask questions, and exchange ideas with Larry Hancock, Gerald McKnight, Ed Haslam, Joan Mellen, Rex Bradford, David Talbot, Sterling Seagrave, Ian Griggs, and others. With the exception of Rex, whose contributions have been enormous and invaluable, the others have written benchmark books in the 21st century. I know I've left out some important names.

And then there is all the internet information that finds its way here so quickly, due to the diligence of Forum members. Every day one is exposed to a myriad of valuable links to information, both current and historical.

In my opinion The Education Forum has become the most dynamic internet source for information and discussion when it comes to topics of a political/conspiratorial/historical nature. The educational value of the Forum cannot be overstated. Many websites charge money, and offer much less than what is available here for free to anyone with access to a computer.

I'm not sure that John Simkin gets (or wants) the publicity his efforts deserve. I'd like to see him on 60 Minutes. Or even the Daily Show or The Colbert Report.

Having Peter Dale Scott available to answer questions here is certainly something for most members look to forward to.

[John Simkin]

Peter Dale Scott has agreed to answer questions on the forum when his book is published.

John has done a remarkable job. Members have had the opportunity to communicate, ask questions, and exchange ideas with Larry Hancock, Gerald McKnight, Ed Haslam, Joan Mellen, Rex Bradford, David Talbot, Sterling Seagrave, Ian Griggs, and others. With the exception of Rex, whose contributions have been enormous and invaluable, the others have written benchmark books in the 21st century. I know I've left out some important names.

In many ways, the most important figure to be interviewed on the forum was Nathaniel Weyl. Unfortunately he died on 13th April, 2005. Although he never admitted it, I am sure he knew a great deal about the JFK assassination. The same goes for Gerry Hemmings, who used to be a member of the forum.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKweyl.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhemming.htm

Other researchers who have in the past answered questions about their work include G. Robert Blakely, Dick Russell, Lamar Waldron, Josiah Thompson, William Turner, Jim Marrs, William Pepper, Robert Parry, Alfred McCoy, Barr McClellan, Sander Hicks, Joe Trento, Tony Summers, Matthew Smith, Jim Feltzer, William Reymond, Nina Burleigh and Craig Roberts. Hopefully, Jeff Morley will also be willing to talk about his important book on Win Scott that is due out later this year.

Here is a full list:

Robert Parry, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, The Press & Project Truth

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6892

Sander Hicks, Big Wedding: 9/11, the Whistle-Blowers, and the Cover-Up

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6905

Joe Trento, Prelude to Terror

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5753

Alfred McCoy, The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5671

Lance Price: The Spin Doctor’s Diary

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7043

Anthony Summers, The Kennedy Conspiracy

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5756

Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics and the Death of JFK

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5686

Lamar Waldron, Ultimate Sacrifice

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5494

Gerald McKnight: Breach of Trust

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5226

William Pepper: Act of State

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5230

Joan Mellen: Farewell to Justice

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5015

G. Robert Blakey: The Plot to Kill the President

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5225

Barr McClellan: Blood, Money & Power: How LBJ Killed JFK

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6525

Josiah Thompson: Six Seconds in Dallas

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4895

Matthew Smith: JFK: The Second Plot

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4896

Jim Feltzer, The Strange Death of Paul Wellstone

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4542

Don Bohning: The Castro Obsession

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4761

William Turner: Deadly Secrets

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4858

William Turner: Rearview Mirror

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5100

Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3028

Jim Marrs, Crossfire

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2489

William Reymond: JFK, Le Dernier Témoin

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2891

Dick Russell, The Man Who Knew Too Much

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4734

Nina Burleigh: A Very Private Womana Burleigh: A Very Private Woman

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4641

Larry Hancock: Someone Would Have Talked

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693

Craig Roberts: Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6784

[Guest David Guyatt]

I join in congratulating John on the marvellous job he does in getting some of the most knowledgeable authors and writers to come here and dsicsuss topics with members and I look forward to PDS.

Earlier, Len Colby wrote about PDS essays:

“Both of those were well written essays I largely agree with both except for the stuff about buying oil in Euros”

What's to disagree about? It is well known that Saddam announced he was switching to selling his oil for euro's back in 2000. The dollar is an oil backed currency and without such backing it could easily begin to crumble as the reserve currency of the world. I can well see how Saddam's announced policy would've caused immense concern in Washington, Texas and London.

Also, PDS's mention about a New American Century in his above essay about the forthcoming war in Iraq references the neo-con agenda outlined by the neo-con Project For A New American Century (see: http://www.newamericancentury.org/). Those who have not read their "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century" may benefit from doing so.

There are many essay on this dollar-euro war but the following might be worth reading:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

David

[John Simkin]

I join in congratulating John on the marvellous job he does in getting some of the most knowledgeable authors and writers to come here and dsicsuss topics with members and I look forward to PDS.

Thank you. I see your website, Deep Black Lies, is currently unavailable. Have you changed the URL?

http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/

[Guest David Guyatt]

During a period of extended illness from which I am now recovering, my ISP locked the URL due to inactivity on my part. I'm damned if I'm going to pay them to reactivate, so until I find another host, sadly it'll have to remain dormant. Anyone with hosting ideas/solution will find a willing ear in which to whisper...

David

[Michael Hogan]

I don’t buy or read books just to debunk them.... I choose to read books that I will find entertaining and/or informative.

Of course. Apparently, you have already determined that Scott's book will not meet that criteria.

I am constantly seeking to widen my knowledge base but I don’t have the time to read every book ever published about every subject that strikes my interest.

I'm sure that responding to Mark and Sid can be very time consuming.

Len, your glib response totally misses my point to you. Scott's acknowledged reputation in the research community certainly doesn't deserve lumping his book in with "every book ever published about every subject" of interest.

If after Scott's book is actually published, you are able to demonstrate that he is a xxxx or a poor researcher you will have achieved something that few, if any have heretofore been able to do.

[Len Colby]

I don’t buy or read books just to debunk them.... I choose to read books that I will find entertaining and/or informative.

Of course. Apparently, you have already determined that Scott's book will not meet that criteria.

Based on the limited information I have so far I don’t think so. Perhaps when it comes out and I learn more about it I’ll change my mind. I never said I definitely wouldn’t read it.

I am constantly seeking to widen my knowledge base but I don’t have the time to read every book ever published about every subject that strikes my interest.

I'm sure that responding to Mark and Sid can be very time consuming.

Perhaps not as much as you imagine

Len, your glib response totally misses my point to you. Scott's acknowledged reputation in the research community certainly doesn't deserve lumping his book in with "every book ever published about every subject" of interest.

Ditto above

If after Scott's book is actually published, you are able to demonstrate that he is a xxxx or a poor researcher you will have achieved something that few, if any have heretofore been able to do.

I wouldn’t buy it just to debunk it as I already indicated. He did do poor research in the limited case I already pointed out. Like I already said this may not be a reflection of his other research. Bill said he was not particularly interested in the issue.

Peter Lemkin wrote:

There is no doubt that COG was put into effect secretly [and what exactly it entails is top secret!]on 9-11 and lied about....what is more important is if it was ever recinded. I think not, and think PDS was more than hinting to that effect...it is likely secretly still in effect....the Constitution, Laws and Congress et al are in shadow operation for 'effect', but can be dismissed, jailed in Guantanimo or ignored at will.... the 2008 elections suspended - and worse......

if my supposition is true.

Just as Dallas was a SECRET coup,

9-11 was a secret change of government....from a [VERY flawed] representative constitutional democracy to......who knows what! [but having NO aspects of the past AT ALL!]...the road from Dallas to 9-11 has been quite some roadwork indeed!...more controlled demolition and another collapse into its own 'footprint' - this time the Nation and what it stood for at its horrible best...but still with a smidgin of hope...both events were done as 'stage tricks' to take away, more than anything else, a sense of hope and empowerment by the demos. IMO

Just what are you going on about? I the dreaded evil COG was put into effect 9/11 as you seem to believe how come no one seemed to notice for the last 5 ½ years? Do you really think “the Constitution, Laws and Congress et al can be dismissed, jailed in Guantanimo or ignored at will”? Shall I assume based on your past track record that evidence will NOT be forthcoming? As for the cancellation of the 2008 I could see it being fixed (as it might well have been in 2004) but cancelled? You wanna bet? You name the amount.

[William Kelly]

Well, at least Peter Lemkin listened to PDS's talk and/or read the transcript.

I think it real important, and look forward to learning more about it.

Thanks Peter,

BK

PETER: There is no doubt that COG was put into effect secretly [and what exactly it entails is top secret!] on 9-11 and lied about....what is more important is if it was ever recinded. I think not, and think PDS was more than hinting to that effect...it is likely secretly still in effect....the Constitution, Laws and Congress et al are in shadow operation for 'effect', but can be dismissed, jailed in Guantanimo or ignored at will.... the 2008 elections suspended - and worse......

if my supposition is true.

Just as Dallas was a SECRET coup,

9-11 was a secret change of government....from a [VERY flawed] representative constitutional democracy to......who knows what! [but having NO aspects of the past AT ALL!]...the road from Dallas to 9-11 has been quite some roadwork indeed!...more controlled demolition and another collapse into its own 'footprint' - this time the Nation and what it stood for at its horrible best...but still with a smidgin of hope...both events were done as 'stage tricks' to take away, more than anything else, a sense of hope and empowerment by the demos. IMOmkin

[Len Colby]

Well, at least Peter Lemkin listened to PDS's talk and/or read the transcript.

I think it real important, and look forward to learning more about it.

I read it but can't figure out 'what the fuss is all about'. Perhaps you can explain why you think it's such a big deal.

[Jack White]

http://www.WantToKnow.info/070618professorsquestion911

[William Kelly]

Well, at least Peter Lemkin listened to PDS's talk and/or read the transcript.

I think it real important, and look forward to learning more about it.

I read it but can't figure out 'what the fuss is all about'. Perhaps you can explain why you think it's such a big deal.

Well Len,

I don't know how things work down there in Brazil, but here in USA we have a thing called the Constitution that is suppose to set the laws and the way the government works.

According to PDS, who has been studying such things, when Ronald Reagan was President, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Lon Cheney put together a scenario that extended the Continuity of Government -COG policies, which were to be followed in the event of a nuclear war - to include any national emergency, including natural disaster, political assassination, terrorist attack, etc.

On 11/22/63, McGeorge Bundy, JFK's national security advisor, was holding down the fort at the basement bunker in the White House while the events in Dallas unfolded. In the days afterwards, LBJ and Bundy kept tabs on news coming out of Dallas, Mexico City and everywhere else from the same White House basement bunker.

Just as the COG of LBJ becoming President immediately after JFK's head was blown apart, the new COG established a set procedure for the continuity of the federal government if something happened to the President if a tornado hit the White House or something unprecidented like that.

As PDS points out, it was kind of weird for a Congressman and a CEO of a drug company who wasn't even in the government at the time to devise this secret progam in the 1980s, and then find themselves in the top tiers of the govenment on 9/11, with the opportunity to invoke the program.

As the Washington Post (See: Shadow Government) article points out, there are a number of secret and secure bunkers - one in the basement of the White House used on 9/11, one on the Maryland-Pennsylvania border and another in West Virginia underneath Sam Snead's White Sulfer Springs golf course (there's another Conspiracy Golf item) that were used at different times.

John Judge saw the list of those who were designated to enter such facilities in the course of an emergency - ie nuclear war - and was surprised that it was, unlike the Dr. Strangelove scenario - all men and no women. Even Dan Rather, when he was in the good graces of the government, was on the list.

Now in the course of evaluating the 9/11 Timeline of events, PDS sees that the VP DLC - Dick Lon Cheney, makes two unrecorded or logged phone calls while in the tunnell between the White House and the Bunker below, he is speculating that Bush/Cheney/Rummy in the course of their conversations together, decided to institute the COG - Executive Order, which would abdictate the normal Constitutional government in favor of the emergency one.

While you won't read about any of this in the 9/11 Report, if COG was indeed instituted on 9/11, then the state of emergency is still in effect, and the President and his cabinet have assumed special powers, without bothering to tell the Congress or the people.

And PDS believes that additional evidence of this is the President's authorization of non-court ordered wiretaps, the radical retention and detention of terrorists, the end of Posse Comatus and use of military in domestic law enforcement, new border procedures, and other similar measures that would normally require the approval of Congress are all the result of the institution of COG on 9/11.

While this seems far-fetched, I no longer put anything past Bush or what he will do to advance his agendas, including the implimentation of Marshall Law without bothering to debate or even declare it.

Do I think it important? Well to someone in Brazil maybe not, but to me, I'm interested in whose running my government and what they're doing, and of all the unresolved issues to come out of 9/11, this is probably the most important and least discussed.

BK

[Len Colby]

http://www.WantToKnow.info/070618professorsquestion911

1) This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread

2) Appeal to authority very few of them are science professors and even those that are specialize in unrelated fields (biology, chemistry, computer science and particle physics etc). The closest they get to people with relevant expertise are:

- William Rice, civil (but not structural) engineer who “taught engineering materials, structures lab, and other building related courses” at “Vermont Technical College” a school mostly dedicated to giving out associates degrees and continuing education and isn’t even among the 1300 institutions of higher learning ranked by USN&WR http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/d..._3698_brief.php

- 2 Professors emeritus of Structural Dynamics and Earthquake Engineering from theSwiss Federal Institute of Technology who think 7 WTC demolished based on watching video tapes.

3)So the compiler of the list claims that there are 100 professors on the list. Sounds vaguely impressive until you consider that

a)“postsecondary teachers held nearly 1.6 million jobs in 2004” in the US according to the US government even if you deduct “Vocational education teachers” and “Graduate teaching assistants” the number is about 1.3 million.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos066.htm#emply

about 2/3 of them are EX-professors or don’t teach in the US, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they have 50 professors currently employed at American colleges and universities. It that case 0.004% of American professors support the truth movement that’s about 1/2000 the percentage of the general population who thinks Elvis is still alive!http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/11/...ain518294.shtml

Even if you could divide the number of Americans on the list by the total number of people who ever taught in a college or university the number would be similarly miniscule.

c) A large number of the people on the list teach or taught at lowly ranked schools and/or are/were part time (adjunct) professors, they are hardly the elite of academia.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Well Len,

I don't know how things work down there in Brazil, but here in USA we have a thing called the Constitution that is suppose to set the laws and the way the government works.

[...]

Now in the course of evaluating the 9/11 Timeline of events, PDS sees that the VP DLC - Dick Lon Cheney, makes two unrecorded or logged phone calls while in the tunnell between the White House and the Bunker below, he is speculating that Bush/Cheney/Rummy in the course of their conversations together, decided to institute the COG - Executive Order, which would abdictate the normal Constitutional government in favor of the emergency one.

[...]

And PDS believes that additional evidence of this is the President's authorization of non-court ordered wiretaps, the radical retention and detention of terrorists, the end of Posse Comatus and use of military in domestic law enforcement, new border procedures, and other similar measures that would normally require the approval of Congress are all the result of the institution of COG on 9/11.

While this seems far-fetched, I no longer put anything past Bush or what he will do to advance his agendas, including the implimentation of Marshall Law without bothering to debate or even declare it.

Do I think it important? Well to someone in Brazil maybe not, but to me, I'm interested in whose running my government and what they're doing, and of all the unresolved issues to come out of 9/11, this is probably the most important and least discussed.

BK

Of course the constitution is important but as you say all PDS has is speculation at no time on or since 9/11 the constitution was officially suspended. the elected eer appointed president was still president and still nominally subject to the checks and balances congress and the courts were still in power.

I fail to see a conection between "the President's authorization of non-court ordered wiretaps, the radical retention and detention of terrorists, the end of Posse Comatus and use of military in domestic law enforcement, new border procedures, and other similar measures" has to do with COG the problem is that congress and the courts have let themselves be usurpped and the public doesn't really care. These problems are serious enough without dreaming up far fetched "conspiracy theories" that make little sense. As for the implementation of martial law much as I distrust Bush I don't see it happening. I'll bet you that it won't happen. Bet ends 12 noon EST January 20, 2009 when Bush's replacement is sworn in.