Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[John Bevilaqua]

One thing that Holocaust deniers and their opponents, CTs and LN's on the assassination and even the CIA can agree on is that Douglas is a conman not to be trusted. It seems that his only support comes from the Willis Carto camp of neo-Nazis. Interestingly Carto has been accused by several ex associates of being a conman himself, birds of a feather I guess. Piper still works for Carto as did Bollyn till he was fired for "filing false stories".

And that's the relationship between Carto and Mark Lane?

Did Lane marry Carto's daughter?

BK

I never heard the one about Lane marrying Carto's daughter, wouldn't be surprised. Since the 1970's he has been associated with all sorts of unsavory characters like Carto and Jim Jones.

I heard that from the person who published one of my Willoughby articles right after the Providence

conference, the Editor and Publisher of a small counter culture periodical the name of which escapes me.

I will look it up somehow to see if it is still around. Steve something... Hagen or Hager was his name.

His friend was the one who accompanied Sarah MacLendon to the Washington, DC conference a few months later where she cornered me and started to quiz me about how I got all this knowledge about Willoughby. Only

later did her name surface on the Anti Communist Liaison Committee of Correspondence with Billy

James Hargis, Edward Hunter, Alex Rorke and Charles Willoughby himself. Wonder if this friend of Steve

knew about Sarah's ties to Willoughby in the 1960's or if he was just too young to realize anything.

But she obviously contacted him after I did the magazine article for which he served as the photographer

and as the person who wrote the preface. Have to write it off as just a skillful and secretive penetration.

Anyone know any more about this Sarah MacLendon character? She was a manipulative and sneaky

type even in the 1990s and I never trusted her for a moment. Lou Wolf was at that conference too

from CAIB later called CAQ and we had fun grabbing the membership lists from one of those Pentagon

Engineering Groups also in the hotel at that time.

[John Bevilaqua]

Ron,

Didn't you read Michael Collins Piper? They killed JFK too.

BK

And even Don Gibson made these same claims at the COPA conference in the 1993-94 timeframe

as I recall. Bill, do you remember the audience reaction when Prouty made his anti JFK statements?

Were you there or would John Judge have any of the VHS transcripts available? How about when

Mark Lane said: "Files? What files? There are no files for the Congress of Freedom!" I have to thank

Vicky Wertz for turning me on to The Liberty Lobby and their chosen promulgators of the party line.

Prouty made no anti-JFK comments. The quote you have presented to this forum is a fabrication and the original offers you no support. I'm pretty sure the Gibson comments are similiarly fabricated, but I was unable to find anything about it. But considering the source...

Another figment of your fertile imagination. Bill Kelly and John Judge are trying to track down the tapes.

Since someone else may have been in charge of creation and editing of these tapes I can not say for

sure if they came through intact. Let's see if Bill or John recall anything about the proceedings.

"Files? What files? There are no files!" In the meantime, why don't you spend some quality mean time

all by yourself? I gots "celebrity statics" and you apparently, do not.

[Owen Parsons]

Another figment of your fertile imagination. Bill Kelly and John Judge are trying to track down the tapes.

Since someone else may have been in charge of creation and editing of these tapes I can not say for

sure if they came through intact. Let's see if Bill or John recall anything about the proceedings.

No, it's a figment of YOUR fertile imagination. I followed your advice and looked through your various newsgroup postings (under various alliases) and found the original Prouty quote, which is a bit, err... differen't.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Owen Parsons

[Ron Ecker]

While the evidence presented in the article may be hotly disputed, there's one thing that seems clear to me---the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent frenzy of anti-Muslem sentiment has served Israeli regional interests well. The Iraqi regime is gone and the Iranian regime may be next.

Aiding and abetting the 9/11 attacks would certainly "make sense" from an Israeli perspective, for the reasons you state. (In fact, on the evening of the attacks, when Netanyahu was asked what effect they would have on U.S.-Israeli relations, he smiled and said "Good," before quickly wiping the smile off his face and "explaining" what he meant.) An Arab extremist plot would have greater chance of success with the resources of Mossad infiltrators, with U.S. operatives supplying what help was needed, e.g. possible use of a remote control aircraft system. With all in place, all that Dick Cheney had to do in his White House bunker was monitor events as they unfolded, while other top U.S. leaders, as documented, made themselves unavailable to give orders, ask questions, or otherwise do anything at all during the attacks.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Another figment of your fertile imagination. Bill Kelly and John Judge are trying to track down the tapes.

Since someone else may have been in charge of creation and editing of these tapes I can not say for

sure if they came through intact. Let's see if Bill or John recall anything about the proceedings.

No, it's a figment of YOUR fertile imagination. I followed your advice and looked through your various newsgroup postings (under various alliases) and found the original Prouty quote, which is a bit, err... differen't.

Owen, would you be kind enough to post below the Prouty quote you referenced please.

In support of his views on Prouty on the JFK forum thread post#43 [ http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...10074&st=30 ], Bevilaqua posted a series of links to articles published by the think tank, Political Research Associates (PRA), of which one of the founding analysts and writers is Chip Berlet.

Over the years both Berlet and PRA have come in for considerable criticism for politically biased reporting and agendas.

Daniel Brandt’s below article published in Robin Ramsay’s LOBSTER in December 1992, discusses the claims made by Belivaqua about Prouty being a Nazi crackpot. As Brandt makes clear, this is foolishness and coming out of the mouth (or rather the pen) of Chip Berlet and the PRA can, by no means, be regarded as anything other than corrosively and ridiculously PC prejudicial.

***

EDit = deleted for copyright reasons.

Edited November 16, 2007 by David Guyatt

[Pamela Brown]

Pamela wrote:

They [Mossad] must of had knowledge of what was happening.

Do you have any evidence to back this belief? Why must have the Mossad know if the CIA didn’t? Is this the same all knowing Mossad that missed the signs that Egypt and Syria were planning to attack Israel in 1973 or took several year to figure out that ‘Israel Beer’ a top military advisor to Ben-Gurion was in fact a Soviet spy?

Israel is in a different position than the US (or used to be) and their objectives are more intense as a result. They are surrounded by Arab countries threatening their destruction. In addition, they are far more sophisticated in intelligence than we are. Our FBI passed over a chance to search Moussaoui's laptop. Do you think Mossad would have been that careless? Look at the raids on Entebbe and those on the perpetrators of the Munich massacre. Quite brilliant. Mossad has its ears to the ground in the Middle East and in Europe. It is my thinking that they had more information than anyone else and probably a better understanding of the possible consequences.

You reference the Yom Kippur War. Israeli intelligence was definitely lacking and/or compromised at that time. I believe they improved significantly after that debacle. Another thing about Mossad is that they don't make the same mistake twice.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Len Colby]

Pamela wrote:

They [Mossad] must of had knowledge of what was happening.

Do you have any evidence to back this belief? Why must have the Mossad know if the CIA didn’t? Is this the same all knowing Mossad that missed the signs that Egypt and Syria were planning to attack Israel in 1973 or took several year to figure out that ‘Israel Beer’ a top military advisor to Ben-Gurion was in fact a Soviet spy?

Israel is in a different position than the US (or used to be) and their objectives are more intense as a result. They are surrounded by Arab countries threatening their destruction. In addition, they are far more sophisticated in intelligence than we are. Our FBI passed over a chance to search Moussaoui's laptop. Do you think Mossad would have been that careless? Look at the raids on Entebbe and those on the perpetrators of the Munich massacre. Quite brilliant. Mossad has its ears to the ground in the Middle East and in Europe. It is my thinking that they had more information than anyone else and probably a better understanding of the possible consequences.

You reference the Yom Kippur War. Israeli intelligence was definitely lacking and/or compromised at that time. I believe they improved significantly after that debacle. Another thing about Mossad is that they don't make the same mistake twice.

In other words it’s just a hunch and you have no evidence. Don’t forget that it was an attack against the US by a group based in Afghanistan that had never attacked Israeli targets (though they seemed to have funded a few) by a cell based in the US and before that Germany none of whose members were associated with Palestinian groups.

"Our FBI passed over a chance to search Moussaoui's laptop. Do you think Mossad would have been that careless?"

That had something to due with a pesky little document called the Constitution, even now probable cause is required for a search warrant and they didn’t have any at the he was being held on immigration charges.

"Look at the raid on Entebbe"

That was an IDF operation. The Entebbe hijacking was just one of many terrorist attacks by anti-Israeli groups against Israeli targets that the Mossad and other Israeli intelligence agencies failed to detect or prevent. Many of those attacks were planned and organized in the occupied territories by people already known to the Israelis. So why would you expect them to have known about 9/11 (see above)?

[Mark Stapleton]

Pamela wrote:

They [Mossad] must of had knowledge of what was happening.

Do you have any evidence to back this belief? Why must have the Mossad know if the CIA didn’t? Is this the same all knowing Mossad that missed the signs that Egypt and Syria were planning to attack Israel in 1973 or took several year to figure out that ‘Israel Beer’ a top military advisor to Ben-Gurion was in fact a Soviet spy?

Israel is in a different position than the US (or used to be) and their objectives are more intense as a result. They are surrounded by Arab countries threatening their destruction. In addition, they are far more sophisticated in intelligence than we are. Our FBI passed over a chance to search Moussaoui's laptop. Do you think Mossad would have been that careless? Look at the raids on Entebbe and those on the perpetrators of the Munich massacre. Quite brilliant. Mossad has its ears to the ground in the Middle East and in Europe. It is my thinking that they had more information than anyone else and probably a better understanding of the possible consequences.

You reference the Yom Kippur War. Israeli intelligence was definitely lacking and/or compromised at that time. I believe they improved significantly after that debacle. Another thing about Mossad is that they don't make the same mistake twice.

In other words it’s just a hunch and you have no evidence. Don’t forget that it was an attack against the US by a group based in Afghanistan that had never attacked Israeli targets (though they seemed to have funded a few) by a cell based in the US and before that Germany none of whose members were associated with Palestinian groups.

"Our FBI passed over a chance to search Moussaoui's laptop. Do you think Mossad would have been that careless?"

That had something to due with a pesky little document called the Constitution, even now probable cause is required for a search warrant and they didn’t have any at the he was being held on immigration charges.

"Look at the raid on Entebbe"

That was an IDF operation. The Entebbe hijacking was just one of many terrorist attacks by anti-Israeli groups against Israeli targets that the Mossad and other Israeli intelligence agencies failed to detect or prevent. Many of those attacks were planned and organized in the occupied territories by people already known to the Israelis. So why would you expect them to have known about 9/11 (see above)?

Since when did it become a requirement of this forum that evidence to your satisfaction must be provided for every opinion expressed? Pamela made the perfectly reasonable assertion that for Israel, because of its unique geopolitical circumstances, an intelligence network of the highest order is necessary to guarantee its ongoing survival and prosperity. A perfectly reasonable assertion.

The Mossad is regarded as one of the shrewdest intelligence agencies in the world. I've read it in dozens of articles and don't ask me to cite any. Do your own research.

Whether by design or not, 9/11 has ultimately served Israeli regional interests well. Others on this thread have expressed agreement to this. It's a fact. Accept it.

[Evan Burton]

Whether by design or not, 9/11 has ultimately served Israeli regional interests well. Others on this thread have expressed agreement to this. It's a fact. Accept it.

I think we have to accept this. My personal opinion is that the 9/11 decisions certainly favour the Israelis. I think that both sides have almost equal blame. It will take, however, a strong negotiator to be able to step in and impose threats on both sides.

[Craig Lamson]

Pamela wrote:

They [Mossad] must of had knowledge of what was happening.

Do you have any evidence to back this belief? Why must have the Mossad know if the CIA didn’t? Is this the same all knowing Mossad that missed the signs that Egypt and Syria were planning to attack Israel in 1973 or took several year to figure out that ‘Israel Beer’ a top military advisor to Ben-Gurion was in fact a Soviet spy?

Israel is in a different position than the US (or used to be) and their objectives are more intense as a result. They are surrounded by Arab countries threatening their destruction. In addition, they are far more sophisticated in intelligence than we are. Our FBI passed over a chance to search Moussaoui's laptop. Do you think Mossad would have been that careless? Look at the raids on Entebbe and those on the perpetrators of the Munich massacre. Quite brilliant. Mossad has its ears to the ground in the Middle East and in Europe. It is my thinking that they had more information than anyone else and probably a better understanding of the possible consequences.

You reference the Yom Kippur War. Israeli intelligence was definitely lacking and/or compromised at that time. I believe they improved significantly after that debacle. Another thing about Mossad is that they don't make the same mistake twice.

In other words it’s just a hunch and you have no evidence. Don’t forget that it was an attack against the US by a group based in Afghanistan that had never attacked Israeli targets (though they seemed to have funded a few) by a cell based in the US and before that Germany none of whose members were associated with Palestinian groups.

"Our FBI passed over a chance to search Moussaoui's laptop. Do you think Mossad would have been that careless?"

That had something to due with a pesky little document called the Constitution, even now probable cause is required for a search warrant and they didn’t have any at the he was being held on immigration charges.

"Look at the raid on Entebbe"

That was an IDF operation. The Entebbe hijacking was just one of many terrorist attacks by anti-Israeli groups against Israeli targets that the Mossad and other Israeli intelligence agencies failed to detect or prevent. Many of those attacks were planned and organized in the occupied territories by people already known to the Israelis. So why would you expect them to have known about 9/11 (see above)?

The biggest problem I think in regards to the advance warning that something big was about to happen was the lack of specfics. Given a rather general threat warning how should the have government responded and stayed within the framework of the constitution?

I

[Craig Lamson]

Whether by design or not, 9/11 has ultimately served Israeli regional interests well. Others on this thread have expressed agreement to this. It's a fact. Accept it.

I think we have to accept this. My personal opinion is that the 9/11 decisions certainly favour the Israelis. I think that both sides have almost equal blame. It will take, however, a strong negotiator to be able to step in and impose threats on both sides.

I think we also have to accept the fact that the WORLDS interests have also been well served....despite of the fact that a very large part of it showed an amazing lack of will.

[Owen Parsons]

Owen, would you be kind enough to post below the Prouty quote you referenced please.

Sure. See this post of mine here. And thanks for the Brandt article.

[Charles Drago]

Since when did it become a requirement of this forum that evidence to your satisfaction must be provided for every opinion expressed? Pamela made the perfectly reasonable assertion that for Israel, because of its unique geopolitical circumstances, an intelligence network of the highest order is necessary to guarantee its ongoing survival and prosperity. A perfectly reasonable assertion.

Do your own research.

Whether by design or not, 9/11 has ultimately served Israeli regional interests well. Others on this thread have expressed agreement to this. It's a fact. Accept it.

Mark,

"The Leuchter Report" is the only sort of "proof" that these twisted little minds can embrace.

Charles

[Len Colby]

Since when did it become a requirement of this forum that evidence to your satisfaction must be provided for every opinion expressed?

What evidence? She has yet to produce any. All that she has is a hunch based the perceived infallibility of the Mossad but even she admitted they failed to see the warning signs that its neighbors were going to attack in ’73. As I pointed out they also missed the signs of coming terrorist attacks by know anti-Israeli groups, by people know to members of those groups, based in Israeli controlled territory against Israel which seems to moot her assumption they “must” have know about an attack against the US, by an anti-American group based in Afghanistan, by a cell based in Germany and the US whose members AFAIK never went to or participated in attacks against Israel.

The whole point of this forum is to debate “Controversial Issues in History”, members present their views hopefully backed by evidence on these issues, those who agree post concurring information, those who disagree challenge them. Perhaps you should calm down and stop hyperventilating? Would be reasonable if I asked you same question regarding Craig’s view that Iran is a threat? What obligation is he under to provide “evidence to your satisfaction”?

Pamela made the perfectly reasonable assertion that for Israel, because of its unique geopolitical circumstances, an intelligence network of the highest order is necessary to guarantee its ongoing survival and prosperity. A perfectly reasonable assertion.

She did more than that she made the leap from that, something that I don’t dispute to assuming they “must” of have foreknowledge.

The Mossad is regarded as one of the shrewdest intelligence agencies in the world. I've read it in dozens of articles and don't ask me to cite any.

Something I’ve never disputed, LOL and you object when I cite how you constantly resort to strawmen.

Do your own research.

The question is a bit moot since I don’t dispute that but it’s up to a claimant to back their claims not the skeptic to research them.

Whether by design or not, 9/11 has ultimately served Israeli regional interests well. Others on this thread have expressed agreement to this. It's a fact. Accept it.

Another strawman, how many is that in a single short post? Point to where I said they didn’t. But I think you over estimate the benefit to Israel. The Taliban were never much of a threat to them, Al-Queda was to a degree but they are stonger in many respects than they were before. Saddam is gone but many (most?) in Israel felt Iran was the greater threat because embargoed and no-fly zoned Iraq could not do very much and Bush probably would have invaded 9/11 or no 9/11. Their benefit was more abstract a shift in sympathies but that has largely been undone.

[Len Colby]

Since when did it become a requirement of this forum that evidence to your satisfaction must be provided for every opinion expressed? Pamela made the perfectly reasonable assertion that for Israel, because of its unique geopolitical circumstances, an intelligence network of the highest order is necessary to guarantee its ongoing survival and prosperity. A perfectly reasonable assertion.

Do your own research.

Whether by design or not, 9/11 has ultimately served Israeli regional interests well. Others on this thread have expressed agreement to this. It's a fact. Accept it.

Mark,

"The Leuchter Report" is the only sort of "proof" that these twisted little minds can embrace.

Charles

Another asinine comment from someone incapable of anything else.

The only member of this forum who believes in “The Leuchter Report" is Mark’s ex-soul mate Sid Walker (not that I think Mark believes in it).

Drago your insinuation that I’m a Holocaust denier is vile and disgusting. If you follow this forum you know that I'm a descendant of a Holocaust victim but even if you didn't know that your insinuation is abhorrent.

One can read about the “report” he was referring to here http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/

NOTE - I originally wrote this post using stonger language but toned it down.