Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Guest David Guyatt]

Billy Kelly and John Judge help us out here.

Well, they haven't helped you out with your mis-statements these last couple of weeks -- despite your pleadings -- so I guess they're not going to help you out now. I wonder why...

[Pamela Brown]

Israel has been placed in a most impossible position by the United Nations. The other half of the mandate, to create a Palestinian state along with Israel, was left incomplete because the Palestinians refused to acknowledge Israel. Who can blame them? At the same time, a process could have been put into place to allow a gradual increase in acceptance and the Palestinian state allowed to exist.

Because no process has been put in place, the land has, in effect, been given to two people, and peace is virtually impossible. In addition, Israel is surrounded by countries that want it wiped off the map. In addition, Israel was given no protection, and encouraged to be passive.

But how could they? After the Holocaust, they rightly claimed "Never Again". They have seen their worst fears materialize in the loss of their family and friends. They will stop at nothing to protect themselves.

It is in this context that I agree with Peter that to underestimate Mossad at any time or for any reason is simply naive. They don't necessarily intend to cross the line into assassination and murder, but they may do that in order to protect Israel and its people.

[Ron Ecker]

Israel has been placed in a most impossible position by the United Nations. The other half of the mandate, to create a Palestinian state along with Israel, was left incomplete because the Palestinians refused to acknowledge Israel. Who can blame them? At the same time, a process could have been put into place to allow a gradual increase in acceptance and the Palestinian state allowed to exist.

Several years ago, when Arafat was still alive and robbing the Palestinians blind, didn't Israel agree to almost everything the Palestinians wanted, and peace seemed about to break out with a Palestinian state, and Arafat said no and killed the deal?

Arafat was of course protecting his golden goose, but can it not be said that at least once during these years of turmoil Israel tried its best for peace with the Palestinians?

I'm no expert on the Israeli-Palestinian problem, this is all from memory and what I recall about the Palestinians' late great Nobel Peace Prize winner.

[Len Colby]

Why ask that as though it is such an unusual question? Mossad is sophisticated and tough. They move faster than we do. They don't discount information as we do. They also are comfortable using unorthodox means to acquire information, such as the back door in Promis. Why underestimate them and pretend they did not?

So it's still just a hunch unsupported by evidence. Yes the " Mossad is sophisticated and tough" and acording to reputation better than the CIA but they aren't prefect you still haven't addressed the question as to why they should have know about an attack against the US by a group based in Afganistan, Germany and the US with no Palestinians when they missed attacks by Palestinians from the occupied territories against Israel

Why are you discounting Promis? Do you understand the implications? That happened twenty years ago. The Mossad figured out how to get into the intelligence of any country using that software.

In addition, it seems your perspective is a bit narrow. Bin Laden is not a Palestinian, but he certainly is anti-Semitic, and has excoriated the US for being involved with Israel.

Another point, again in a wider perspective, is that Mossad has to protect the Israeli's wherever they go. You may realize that they hop across the pond frequently. Sharon, until his stroke, was here, Netanyahu is here, as well as others who do not end up on CNN or Fox. Therefore, Mossad has also a vested interest in knowing what the environment is like when they are traveling.

I don't know what events you are referencing when you say "attacks from Palestinians", as Israel is constantly being bombarded by rockets from them. What is your point?

I don’t know how to make my point anymore straight forward. I’m not saying there is know way the Mossad could have known but rather contesting your claim they “must” have known. Thus I asked you a simple question: If they didn’t know about numerous attacks organized in and carried out against Israel by Palestinians known to be members of groups that attack Israeli targets whenever they can, why do think it is so certain they knew about an attack against a distant country (the US) by Saudis, Egyptians and Lebanese based far from Israel (in Afghanistan, Germany and the US) who had never been members of especially anti-Israeli groups whose group had never attacked Israel?

As for Promis can you document any of you claims about it? If you theory is that the Mossad probably knew but didn’t tell anybody how would them being able to spy on intelligence agencies that didn’t know advance your theory?

[Mark Stapleton]

I don’t know how to make my point anymore straight forward. I’m not saying there is know way the Mossad could have known but rather contesting your claim they “must” have known. Thus I asked you a simple question: If they didn’t know about numerous attacks organized in and carried out against Israel by Palestinians known to be members of groups that attack Israeli targets whenever they can, why do think it is so certain they knew about an attack against a distant country (the US) by Saudis, Egyptians and Lebanese based far from Israel (in Afghanistan, Germany and the US) who had never been members of especially anti-Israeli groups whose group had never attacked Israel?

In your pursuit of Pamela, you make it sound like Mossad foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks is as remote a possibility as me scoring a hat trick of goals in a World Cup final---'distant country', 'far from Israel' etc etc.

However, the link you yourself provided in post #7 stated:

"There have been suggestions that some of the Israeli spies lived close to some of the 9/11 hijackers. For instance, a US Drug Enforcement Administration report from before 9/11 noted that Israeli spies were living in the retirement community of Hollywood, Florida at 4220 Sheridan Street, which turned out to be only a few hundred feet from from lead hijacker Mohamed Atta's residence at 3889 Sheridan Street (see DEA report 6/01).

Israeli spies appear to have been close to at least ten of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers (Salon 5/7/02). In fact, FORWARD, the most widely circulated publication in the US targeting the Jewish audience has admitted that the spy ring existed, and that its purpose was to track Muslim terrorists operating in the US (FORWARD 3/15/02)"

Not really as difficult for Mossad as your 'distant country', 'far from Israel' rhetoric would suggest, Len.

As for the statement that Mossad 'must have known', well that's a value judgement isn't it. I would tend to agree with it, given the evidence cited here and elsewhere. Mossad must have known, imo.

[Guest David Guyatt]

[As for the statement that Mossad 'must have known', well that's a value judgement isn't it. I would tend to agree with it, given the evidence cited here and elsewhere. Mossad must have known, imo.

As they appear to have known about the London 7/7 bombings in advance. One must respect the fact that Mossad have a very developed intelligence ability.

David

[Ron Ecker]

As they appear to have known about the London 7/7 bombings in advance.

There's also a leading U.S. presidential candidate that I wonder about. In New York as mayor on 9/11, Rudy Giuliani, in his own words, was "told" (by whom?) after the planes hit that "the World Trade Center was gonna collapse," and so got out of the area. (He was also subsequently instrumental in destroying evidence from Ground Zero.) Then he happened to be in London only about a block away when one of the 7/7 bombs went off.

Giuliani is the Jim Braden of terrorist attacks. (Braden was the Mob-connected fellow who was in the area of both the JFK and RFK assassinations.)

I hate coincidences.

[Charles Drago]

I hate coincidences.

Oddly enough, so do I.

[William Kelly]

I wanted to bring this back up in light of the new Defense Dept. History.

BK

THE 177TH NJANG ON 9/11 – Why none of the hijacked airlines were intercepted.

By William Kelly – bkjfk3@yahoo.com

The new, state-of-the-art, multi-million dollar communications facility at the 177th New Jersey Air National Guard base at the Atlantic City airport is now there because of the events of September 11, 2001, a belated effort to ensure that there are no more breakdowns in the lines of communication and command like those that occurred on 9/11.

While some of the problems have been addressed by the 9/11 Commission Report and recommendations, there are still unanswered questions about what happened that day, among them – why were none of the hijacked planes intercepted by jet fighters?

There is also the question as to why no one has been held responsible and accountable for the breakdown in our national and personal security that day? Most of those in command positions that day are still there or have been promoted. At the Atlantic City Airport, the new communications facility is there as a direct result of what happened on 9/11.

It was just another weekday for most of those who worked at the 177th New Jersey Air National Guard base at Atlantic City airport, including James Cusak, an F-16 pilot who, with his wingman, was taxing out to the runway shortly before 8:30 am on September 11, 2001.

Sometime after 8 a.m., Cusak, whose radio handle is "Gilligan," along with his wingman, a former Navy pilot who attended Annapolis, were all fueled and ready to go. They slowly made their way out to the end of the runway, prepared to go on a practice bomb run in upstate New York. They waited at the end of the runway for quite a while, without being given the signal to take off. After about twenty minutes, both pilots later said they sensed something was wrong, and suspected something had happened, perhaps a personal family emergency, but not what was really going down.

Eventually they were told not to take off and return to headquarters.

It would be fifteen minutes before the first hijacked plane would crash into the World Trade Center and the world would know something was wrong, but some of those on duty at the 177th headquarters knew because they had received a troubling telephone call from a Boston Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) official requesting jet fighter support for a hijacking in progress.

The 177th has jet fighters, except that after being on 24-7, 24 hour, seven days a week alert status for decades, that's more than twenty years, the unit was taken off alert two years earlier, in 1999.

Usual missions for the 177th included escorting Soviet planes down the coast heading for Cuba and South America, and buzzing Russian nuclear submarines offshore. Now they were occasionally enforcing the no-fly zone over Iraq and running training exercises, as they were on that Tuesday morning, September 1, 2001.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), which has a large facility (The William Hughes Technical Center) right there at the Atlantic City Airport, is responsible for air traffic safety in the continental United States. When FAA officials in Boston realized there was an air emergency, and more than one plane was being hijacked by terrorists, they notified the military.

The FAA Boston Center made the call – but apparently to the wrong number. The closest base to Boston with jet fighters on alert status was Otis AFB at Cape Cod, Massachusetts, but Boston FAA Center called Atlantic City, outside the routine chain of command.

Apparently the person who received the call in Atlantic City informed Boston FAA that they were off alert and Otis was the closest base on alert because Otis also got a panicky call from Boston FAA requesting jet fighter assistance for a hijacking. But because that call too, did not come through the regular chain of command, the pilots there got ready, but didn't take off until ordered to do so.

According to the 9/11 Commission Report [p. 20 Military Notification and Response], "Boston Center did not follow the protocol in seeking assistance through the prescribed chain of command. In addition to notification within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility. The center also tried to contact a former alert site in Atlantic City, unaware it had been phased out. At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military – at any level – that American 11 had been hijacked."

[Footnote p. 458- (115) FAA memo, "Full Transcript: Aircraft Accident; AAL1; New York, NY: September 11, 2001," April 19, 2002, p. 5; Terry Biggio interview (Sept. 22, 2003); Collin Scoggins interviews (Sept. 22, 2003; Jan. 8, 2004;): Daniel Bueno interview (Sept. 22, 2003)."]

According to transcripts of a tape of that conversation, it went like this:

"FAA: Hi Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out…"

NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?

FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test."

At the time the Northeast Air Defense Sector was involved with NORAD in a number of war games [ Vigilant Guardian – simulated Russian attack over the Artic; Vigilant Warrior – simulated hijackings; Northern Vigilance – simulated attack over Alaska and Canada; Northern Guardian and a CIA/NRO exercise of a plane crashing into a defense contractor building.], so the confusion was mounted by these war games.

If a similar call came in to the 177th, they would have been told that the 177th was not on alert and to try Otis, which was on alert. It is probable the 9/11 Commission Report got the order of phone calls backwards, and the call to the Atlantic City came in before the call to Otis, since Otis was on alert and there would have been no need to notify Atlantic City if Otis was already called, unless they called Atlantic City before notifying NEADS. Notifying NEADS would have been the correct chain of command rather than notifying the alert base(s) directly.

While it has yet to be determined exactly who in Boston made the call and who in Atlantic City received the request, (and if there is a tape recording or transcripts of the conversations), the call set off an alarm at the 177th base that is still being heard. It delayed the take-off of two F-16 jet fighters from their bombing practice mission, and brought them back to their headquarters and led to the construction of the new, multi-million dollar communications facility at the base.

By the time the two pilots arrived back at their 177th headquarters that September 11th morning, helmets in hand, they saw the first burning tower on television, and realized what was up. But they also realized how unprepared they were for what was happening. For one thing, while their planes were fueled and ready to go, the bomb displacements on their planes had to be reconfigured from bombs to air-to-air missiles, and the missiles had to be retrieved from a remote former nuke bunker hundreds of yards away and then mounted under their wings.

If the two F-16s on the runway at 8:30 am would have taken off on time, they would have intercepted the first plane before it crashed into the WTC, although without any weapons, they would only have been able to observe the situation.

When United Air Flight 175 was hijacked at approximately 8:42 am [see map: 9/11 CR p. 32], it flew directly south before cutting over the New Jersey Pine Barrens and North to strike the WTC. It was a path that would have intersected the 177th F-16s had they taken off anytime before 9 am, a full half hour after the first request for assistance came in to Atlantic City.

Piloted by Victor Saracini, an Atlantic City native, whose daughter was an acquaintance of Cusak, UA 175 out of Newark, N.J. was one hijacked plane that could have been intercepted by the jet fighters, but it wasn't because the planes were refitted with air-to-air missiles.

Cusak later said that he wondered what he could have done if he intercepted a hijacked airliner without being armed. Could he have tipped its wings or rammed the plane or otherwise prevented the hijacked plane for completing its suicide mission? He concluded that he couldn't have done so without dying himself, and maybe would have done so, but was never presented with that circumstance.

As General Richard Meyers USAF, then the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said, "We are the last line of defense," and the air forces should come into play only after the failure of all other lines in the multi-layered defense including the penetration of the country at the borders, evading airport security, breaching the cockpit and hijacking the plane, so the air defense failures are magnified by those before it.

117th MISSION STATUS – OFF ALERT

First let's address the issue of the changing of the mission status of the 177th N.J. Air National Guard that for over two decades, always had two planes on alert status, on the tarmac, armed, fueled and ready to go, and two pilots on standby, within a few hundred yards of the planes, with the ability to intercept planes or boats from upper New York state to Virginia, or to affect a protective air umbrella over New York, Philadelphia or DC within a matter of minutes.

Historically, the 177th NJANG began in September 1917 as the 199th Aero Squadron, an active duty training unit during World War I. In 1958, the 199th Fighter Squadron moved to Egg Harbor Township, N.J., and was activated in 1961 during the Berlin crisis. In 1962 it was re-designated the 177th Tactical Fighter Group, and was reactivated during the Pueblo incident in 1968, as well as during Desert Storm and in Panama. But the 177th was most proud of its active, alert status protecting the skies from New York to Virginia.

With 17 single-seat F-16C "Fighting Falcon" aircraft, the wing maintains its base in buildings on a 296 acre tract at the Atlantic City International Airport, which is also the home of the William Hughes FAA Technical Center. The airport's extra-long runways are cleared for landings of the Concord, when it was flying, and Air Force One.

A typical mission at the height of the Cold War would be to intercept and escort Soviet Russian aircraft heading for Cuba and South America, or buzz a Soviet nuclear submarine offshore, but after the fall of the Berlin Wall and Soviet Communism in Russia, the mission of the 177th changed. They were taken off alert status in October, 1998, according to the Defense Reform Initiative (DRI).

As Cusak later explained, the new defense posture would be a quadrangle grid, with an alert base responsible for each grid, a sort of zone defense, which he attributed to Gen. Colon Powell, then Commander of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

When General Meyers testified before the 9/11 Commission, Commissioner Jamie Gorelick asked him, "….You know 20/20 hindsight is perfect, but if I were sitting at the Pentagon and seeing the kinds of threats that were coming in that summer, I would say to myself, is business as usual appropriate? I mean, the question I have is whether you thought to say: Should we have defenses pre-positioned in a way that we don't? We know that our forces, that our aircraft from NORAD came to late to the Pentagon."

Meyers response: "Sure, we changed our whole air defense posture at the end of the Cold War. We went from about 22 sites [on alert status – including the 177th] down to about 7, I believe, between the United States and Canada, PURPOSELY AND AT DIRECTION OF OUR LEADERSHIP." (Emphasis added –BK).

So a subtle, but profound change in military and defense policy occurred in 1997-1998 when the Defense Reform Initiative was enacted, and "designed to streamline the organizational structure and business practices of the Department of Defense."

Still unasked is why did it cost more to do less? As 9/11 Commissioner and former Navy Secretary John Lehman, a pilot himself publicly pondered, "We have hundreds of jet planes that cost millions of dollars each all along the coast, so how much more would it cost to keep some of them armed and fueled?"

At the time, as part of the Quadrennial Defense Review proposals of May, 1997, the Air Force removed the Air National Guard (ANG) fighter wings, including the Atlantic City and Andrews AFB units, from their traditional and historic air defense alert mission status and made them part of the general-purpose fighter force, reducing the number of dedicated air defense units from 10 in 1997 to 4 in 2001. Others have sited statistics that they went from 20 to 7, including those in Canada and Alaska, but in any case, the number of jet fighter bases on alert was dramatically decreased before 2001.

Reported in the 177th's 1998 Annual Report, "As a result of NORAD tasking, the 177th Fighter Wing began conversion to the general purpose F-16 mission on October 1, 1998. This action ended the wing's 25-year association as part of NORAD's alert force. During that tenure, the wing's NORAD responsibility included providing air sovereignty of the mid-Atlantic between Long Island, New York and the Virginia Capes. As of October 1, the wing extended into its extensive period of general-purpose F-16 role, the 177th will be capable of assuming a variety of air force missions to include overseas deployments and assignments to one of the newly created Air Expeditionary Force." One of the overseas deployments the 177th participated in was enforcing the "No-Fly Zone" over Iraq.

In the months leading up to September 11, 2001, the 177th ran simulated and real bombing runs, and simulated and live air-to-air missile training at Tyndal Air Force Base in Florida, the home of the First Tactical Air Force Headquarters of the NORAD defense system of the Northeast Sector of the continental United States.

The 177th also participated in Operation Stand Down, a community effort to assist homeless veterans, that through its name, infers the non-alert status of the deactivated wing.

On the morning of September 11th 2001, the 177th was not part of the NORAD defense command, which was engaged that morning in an annual war game exercise – VIGILANT GUARDIAN, or any of the other war games being enacted.

According to S. Rowan Wolf, another change in command status occurred on May 8, 2001, when it was announced that President Bush placed Vice President Dick Chaney in charge of Domestic Counter-Terrorism. Wolf interprets that, "…dramatically changed the decision making chain of authority, effectively centralized all response to Chaney, not to NORAD."

In addition, as the military would repeatedly point out during the 9/11 Commission inquiry, the FBI, FAA and domestic law enforcement agencies were tasked with the primary response to a terrorist attack, not NORAD, which as a military department, was prevented by "Pose Comatas" from engaging in domestic law enforcement activities.

Nor were the pilots trained to respond to a situation such as being ordered to shoot down an unarmed commercial airliner with Americans on board, even though that scenario was part of some of the war imagined war games being conducted by the military.

An order to shoot down an unarmed commercial airliner would have to originate with the president and come down the official chain of command, opposite the way the early warnings of hijacked planes went up the chain of command.

Regardless of the possible armed military response, they do have a clear role to intercept, monitor, survey and escort planes that have strayed from their planned route, which they did many times over the preceding two years under the new quadrangle zone defense posture. They did not need to know if this was a hijacking to respond as they had in the past when the first sign of an air emergency was clear – off course, off transponder, off communications and not responding to commands. "They routinely respond to any plane that drifts off-course," said John Judge, of the 9/11 Citizens Research Project, "and did so hundreds of times a year before 9/11, but not on that day."

So on the morning of September 1, 2001, the entire air defense of North America was in the hands of 14 fighter pilots on alert at 7 sites in the continental United States, Alaska and Canada.

As General Meyers testified, "In accordance with Department of Defense (DOD) directives in effect on 9/11, NORAD was to monitor and report the actions of any hijacked aircraft, as requested by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). We had procedures for potential air hijackings, which were based on the premise that a hijacked aircraft would be used for ransom or political purposes, not as a weapon."

"On the morning of 9/11, we were conducting a NORAD command post exercise and our headquarters and regions were postured for 'wartime conditions.' Six minutes prior to the first attack on the World Trade Center, the FAA informed NORAD of the potential hijack of American Airlines Flight 11. As events unfolded throughout the morning, NORAD responded immediately with fighters and appropriate airspace control measures. Unfortunately, due to the constraints of time and distance, we were unable to influence the tragic circumstances."

The entire excuse of the DOD for not intercepting any of the hijacked planes is set in the timeline-chronology. But rather than six minutes before the first plane hits the WTC, 8:40 am, when NEADS is alerted, the alarm should have gone off ten minutes earlier, at 8:30 when the FAA Boston Center first attempted to call Atlantic City and Otis, but they off alert, and could not respond without being ordered through the chain of command.

William Kelly

Bkjfk3@yahoo.com

Parts of this article appeared in the Egg Harbor Township Current newspaper.

[Len Colby]

I don’t know how to make my point anymore straight forward. I’m not saying there is know way the Mossad could have known but rather contesting your claim they “must” have known. Thus I asked you a simple question: If they didn’t know about numerous attacks organized in and carried out against Israel by Palestinians known to be members of groups that attack Israeli targets whenever they can, why do think it is so certain they knew about an attack against a distant country (the US) by Saudis, Egyptians and Lebanese based far from Israel (in Afghanistan, Germany and the US) who had never been members of especially anti-Israeli groups whose group had never attacked Israel?

In your pursuit of Pamela, you make it sound like Mossad foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks is as remote a possibility as me scoring a hat trick of goals in a World Cup final---'distant country', 'far from Israel' etc etc.

Ok I’m a bit dyslexic but you should have been able to figure out that by “I’m not saying there is know way the Mossad could have known but rather contesting your claim they “must” have known.” I meant “I’m not saying there is NO way the Mossad could have known”. In that case what part of that did you fail to understand

However, the link you yourself provided in post #7 stated:

"There have been suggestions that some of the Israeli spies lived close to some of the 9/11 hijackers. For instance, a US Drug Enforcement Administration report from before 9/11 noted that Israeli spies were living in the retirement community of Hollywood, Florida at 4220 Sheridan Street, which turned out to be only a few hundred feet from from lead hijacker Mohamed Atta's residence at 3889 Sheridan Street (see DEA report 6/01).

Israeli spies appear to have been close to at least ten of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers (Salon 5/7/02). In fact, FORWARD, the most widely circulated publication in the US targeting the Jewish audience has admitted that the spy ring existed, and that its purpose was to track Muslim terrorists operating in the US (FORWARD 3/15/02)"

Yes and I contested the credibility of the article. Just because a website says something doesn’t mean its true especially if it was written by an obviously anti-Semitic author talking about Israel. Would you quote a page written by someone with obvious animosity to balack people about sub-Sahara Africa?

As for the supposed proximity of the Israeli art student scam artists to the hijackers that has largelt been debunked by the blogger whose series of entries are hosted on 911myths. Apperently proximity included some of the students andsome of the hijackers living in the same city but miles apart and at different times. The DEA report never suggested the Israelis were Mossad agents or were shadowing the hijackers (see 2nd link) Cameron seems to have have that stuff up

http://911myths.com/Israeli_Art_Students.pdf

DEA report http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm

Not really as difficult for Mossad as your 'distant country', 'far from Israel' rhetoric would suggest, Len.

A strawman, your favorite style of argument, I never said they couldn’t have known only that we can’t assume they would have based on their reputation;

As for the statement that Mossad 'must have known', well that's a value judgement isn't it. I would tend to agree with it, given the evidence cited here and elsewhere. Mossad must have known, imo.

Oh yeah and they killed JFK too, is there an assassination or terrorist attack etc that occurred in the last 60 years or so you don’t think they were involved in? I think they killed Mama Cass.

[Mark Stapleton]

Ok I’m a bit dyslexic but you should have been able to figure out that by “I’m not saying there is know way the Mossad could have known but rather contesting your claim they “must” have known.” I meant “I’m not saying there is NO way the Mossad could have known”. In that case what part of that did you fail to understand

I don't know what you're talking about. I fully understood the meaning of your post and didn't mention your spelling error at all.

As for the rest of your post, forget about it. It's yet another invitation to embark on a tiresome journey of nit-picking semantics---your favored style of debate. It's boring, and we've done it all before on other threads anyway.

Try someone else.

[Michael Hogan]

....As for the rest of your post, forget about it. It's yet another invitation to embark on a tiresome journey of nit-picking semantics---your favored style of debate. It's boring, and we've done it all before on other threads anyway.

Try someone else.

I’m not into getting involved in semantic battles.....

[Guest David Guyatt]

As they appear to have known about the London 7/7 bombings in advance.

There's also a leading U.S. presidential candidate that I wonder about. In New York as mayor on 9/11, Rudy Giuliani, in his own words, was "told" (by whom?) after the planes hit that "the World Trade Center was gonna collapse," and so got out of the area. (He was also subsequently instrumental in destroying evidence from Ground Zero.) Then he happened to be in London only about a block away when one of the 7/7 bombs went off.

Giuliani is the Jim Braden of terrorist attacks. (Braden was the Mob-connected fellow who was in the area of both the JFK and RFK assassinations.)

I hate coincidences.

Guiliani was staying at the same hotel that Netanyahu was staying, the Great Eastern hotel above Liverpool Street station.

"Giuliani established a security outfit: Giuliani Security and Safety. The latter is a subsidary of Giuliani Partners LLC. headed by former New York head of the FBI, Pasquale D’Amuro."

"After 9/11, D’Amuro was appointed Inspector in Charge of the FBI’s investigation of 9/11."

"It is worth noting that Visor Consultants and Giuliani Security and Safety LLC specialize in similar “mock terror drills” and “emergency preparedness” procedures. Both Giuliani and Power were in London at the same time within a short distance of one of the bombing sites. While there is no evidence that Giuliani and Power met in London, the two companies have had prior business contacts in the area of emergency preparedness. Peter Power served on the Advisory Board to the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness (CCEP), together with Richard Sheirer, Senior Vice President of Giuliani and Partners. who was previously Commissioner at the NYC Office of Emergency Management, and Director of New York City Homeland Security."

The foregoing extracts are from the below linked article by Michel Chossudovsky, Global Research, 2005:

http://www.prismwebcastnews.com/pwn/?p=969

Coincidences, coincidences, coincidences.

Speaking of which, don't get me started on the Mardid 3/11 train bombing either. Some of the terror suspects were police informers and another seems to have had contact with the head of Spain's bomb squad. This seems significant when we recall what the French Foreign Minister indicated that the Brits had one of the 7/7 bombers working for them - plus the report of ABLE DANGER commander Colonel Shaffer, that Mohamed Atta was being "protected" by the Pentagon. Sounds mighty suspicious to this old codger that there may well have been pre-warning of all three events.

The words "Pearl Harbour" do spring to mind.

David

David

***

[Len Colby]

....As for the rest of your post, forget about it. It's yet another invitation to embark on a tiresome journey of nit-picking semantics---your favored style of debate. It's boring, and we've done it all before on other threads anyway.

Try someone else.

I’m not into getting involved in semantic battles.....

This is too funny in his desperation to find a foible on my part Hogan contrasts a statement I made with one Mark said about me in a sad attempt to show a contradiction. Presumably if he actually found an example of me employing “nitpicking semantics” he would have used that. Perhaps he can try and show where I’d done so.

[Pamela Brown]

Len has made reference to two separate issues -- Israeli intelligence prior to 9/11 and Israeli intelligence prior to the Yom Kippur War.

Israel's near-defeat at the hands of the Arabs in the Yom Kippur war was not a failure of intelligence. Israel had been on guard for months prior to the attack. Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan had been given intelligence about the Arabs preparing for attack. However, they didn't weigh it properly. Israel was comfortable with its new land, and believed in their destiny. They fell prey to hubris. The information given to them was not handled properly. This is discussed in the Agranat Commission report:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agranat_Commission

In the 80's, Israel became involved in a highly sophisticated plot involving Inslaw and its amazing software, called Promis. Here is a link to information about it:

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bugs.html

If Mossad was capable of this level of deception in the 80's, what level of information could we anticipate their having prior to 9/11?