Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Guest David Guyatt]

....As for the rest of your post, forget about it. It's yet another invitation to embark on a tiresome journey of nit-picking semantics---your favored style of debate. It's boring, and we've done it all before on other threads anyway.

Try someone else.

I’m not into getting involved in semantic battles.....

This is too funny in his desperation to find a foible on my part Hogan contrasts a statement I made with one Mark said about me in a sad attempt to show a contradiction. Presumably if he actually found an example of me employing “nitpicking semantics” he would have used that. Perhaps he can try and show where I’d done so.

Whoa Len, remember that old saw about being careful about what you dream for as it may come true...

David

[Guest David Guyatt]

Len has made reference to two separate issues -- Israeli intelligence prior to 9/11 and Israeli intelligence prior to the Yom Kippur War.

Israel's near-defeat at the hands of the Arabs in the Yom Kippur war was not a failure of intelligence. Israel had been on guard for months prior to the attack. Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan had been given intelligence about the Arabs preparing for attack. However, they didn't weigh it properly. Israel was comfortable with its new land, and believed in their destiny. They fell prey to hubris. The information given to them was not handled properly. This is discussed in the Agranat Commission report:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agranat_Commission

In the 80's, Israel became involved in a highly sophisticated plot involving Inslaw and its amazing software, called Promis. Here is a link to information about it:

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bugs.html

If Mossad was capable of this level of deception in the 80's, what level of information could we anticipate their having prior to 9/11?

Pamela, I remember the Inslaw PROMIS story very well and indeed, was in periodic contact with Inslaw's Bill Hamilton over the story. It was a formidable "data mining" programme. The sense I have is that it came to be in Israeli hands thanks to members of the Reagan Administration. I also suspect that it has been extensively engineered and improved since the 1980's when it was stolen from Inslaw by Reaganites and then placed into various hands.

I shouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the most recent (probably by now unrecognisable) version was in use by the ABLE DANGER team as well as the Israeli's.

David

[Mark Stapleton]

Len has made reference to two separate issues -- Israeli intelligence prior to 9/11 and Israeli intelligence prior to the Yom Kippur War.

Israel's near-defeat at the hands of the Arabs in the Yom Kippur war was not a failure of intelligence. Israel had been on guard for months prior to the attack. Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan had been given intelligence about the Arabs preparing for attack. However, they didn't weigh it properly. Israel was comfortable with its new land, and believed in their destiny. They fell prey to hubris. The information given to them was not handled properly. This is discussed in the Agranat Commission report:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agranat_Commission

In the 80's, Israel became involved in a highly sophisticated plot involving Inslaw and its amazing software, called Promis. Here is a link to information about it:

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bugs.html

If Mossad was capable of this level of deception in the 80's, what level of information could we anticipate their having prior to 9/11?

I would go so far as to suggest they must have known, Pamela.

Interesting link to Profits of War. Do you know if Ben-Menashe is still around?

p.s. Maxwell's links to Shamir in the early 60's are interesting. I wonder if the book expands on this. Shamir is high on MCP's list for JFK.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Mark, Ben-Menashe is now living in Canada, I believe. The English newspaper Baron Robert Maxwell, died shortly after Ben-Menache publicly stated that he [Maxwell] was working for Mossad.

Maxwell was almost certainly working for SIS, Mossad and the CIA -- at one time or another.

David

[Pamela Brown]

'Ron Ecker' date Nov 8 2007, 05:13 PM said:

Several years ago, when Arafat was still alive and robbing the Palestinians blind, didn't Israel agree to almost everything the Palestinians wanted, and peace seemed about to break out with a Palestinian state, and Arafat said no and killed the deal?

Yes, to some extent that is so. But the Israeli's wanted to keep Jerusalem. In addition, Arafat was put under pressure to agree to the proposal. He remained stubborn because of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is still the hottest of issues. There are demonstrations in Israel now because of the possibility the Annapolis Summit will recommend a partition of Jerusalem in preparation for the establishment of a Palestinian state.

[Pamela Brown]

I would go so far as to suggest they must have known, Pamela.

Interesting link to Profits of War. Do you know if Ben-Menashe is still around?

p.s. Maxwell's links to Shamir in the early 60's are interesting. I wonder if the book expands on this. Shamir is high on MCP's list for JFK.

It's my understanding that Ben Menashe has changed his name as part of some sort of a protection program. POW is a fascinating book. Shamir is presented as a complex and menacing figure. I didn't see any direct links into FJ, but he certainly was powerful and a trouble maker.

I became uncomfortable at ABM's characterization of Mordechai Vanunu. He claims that Vanunu tried to show the Soviets his photos, but they were not interested. Since the photos were not developed until later, I don't know if I buy that. He presents Vanunu as an immature whiner. I see more than that going on, though he was easily lured into the Mossad trap by the female agent.

POW discusses the involvement of Bush 41 with Iran-Contra in such a manner as to be devastating. The "October Surprise' is presented with much first-hand detail.

[Guest David Guyatt]

It's my understanding that Ben Menashe has changed his name as part of some sort of a protection program. POW is a fascinating book. Shamir is presented as a complex and menacing figure. I didn't see any direct links into FJ, but he certainly was powerful and a trouble maker.

If he has changed his name it is only in recent months. He is fairly well known in the Montreal Commodities Market for being the joint-owner of Albury Grain Sales Inc and was named as a defendant in a lawsuit as of 2 years ago.

I, likewise, have doubts about him which relate to his curious role in revealing that Robert Maxwell was Mossad. In view of what befell Maxwell and the drubbing both his sons received in the British press and by the security Establishment, it seems evident that something very unpleasant had taken place and that Ben-Menashe's revelations were the vehicle for bringing this to the surface. That's my guess, anyway.

David

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark, Ben-Menashe is now living in Canada, I believe. The English newspaper Baron Robert Maxwell, died shortly after Ben-Menache publicly stated that he [Maxwell] was working for Mossad.

Maxwell was almost certainly working for SIS, Mossad and the CIA -- at one time or another.

David

Thanks for that, David.

If he joined the Forum he might start threads which could be quite interesting. But no, I don't think it's likely.

[Mark Stapleton]

The connection between the outing of Maxwell as Mossad and his sudden death I can't fathom . Looks like another dreaded coincidence or he was murdered.

Ben-Menashe seems like he's telling the truth. I think he's right about Vannunu. I've only seen Vannunu once, a couple of years ago, on TV and he seemed hyperactive and a bit crazy. Of course, Vannunu had been in the jug for a long time.

[Guest David Guyatt]

The connection between the outing of Maxwell as Mossad and his sudden death I can't fathom . Looks like another dreaded coincidence or he was murdered.

Ben-Menashe seems like he's telling the truth. I think he's right about Vannunu. I've only seen Vannunu once, a couple of years ago, on TV and he seemed hyperactive and a bit crazy. Of course, Vannunu had been in the jug for a long time.

Mark, the general concensus among knowledgeable insiders is that Maxwell was done away with. This is covered, in part, by Thomas & Dillon's book THE ASSASSINATION OF ROBERT MAXWELL. I also am still in contact with an old family friend who worked very closely with Maxwell (one of the great old school journalists - a fabulous old gentleman) who also investigated his death, and who is certain that it was the intelligence community who had him killed. His view is that after Maxwell's empire began to collapse and reached the point where his arrest and criminal trial was impossible to forestall, it became expedient to terminate him to stop all the secrets Maxwell was privy to tumbling out in some sort of plea bargaining deal.

David

[Peter McKenna]

They [Mossad] must of had knowledge of what was happening.

Why ask that as though it is such an unusual question? Mossad is sophisticated and tough. They move faster than we do. They don't discount information as we do. They also are comfortable using unorthodox means to acquire information, such as the back door in Promis. Why underestimate them and pretend they did not?

From several books I had read many years ago (sorry for the lack of citing, but it would take me at least a week of rereading to find the pertinent sections) the Israelis have it all over the US with respect to Human Intelligence. We had pretty well abandoned Human intel in favor of Communications and Electronics Intelligence back in the 1960s. By comparison, Mossad had built up their human intelligence resources to one of the world’s best (maybe the world’s best; read of the six day war, or the capture of Eichmann). The only rival human intelligence during the cold war was the Soviets who had well over a million illegals. A few books I had read were about Russian defections to Israel, and subsequent debriefings where great intelligence was garnered, better than the US would get from the same sources (sometimes debriefings would follow political agendas rather than logical ones).

A lot of human intelligence isn’t black or white (not absolute), and much if it can be uncorroborated (“Curveball”, the German source on the Iraq WMD would be an example, as his intelligence statements wasn’t corroborated, and shouldn’t have been accepted, but since they supported a political agenda, were cherry picked).

My recollection is that the Israelis have pretty much always shared intelligence with the US. Reports of debriefings by Mossad included complaints of information overload, just too much raw information that would require vetting by the receiving agency, and which could be extremely time consuming considering the loss of expertise in Hum-Intel. Much of the intelligence may have been ignored as a result.

I would tend to agree with Pamela. The Israelis had (and still have) a tremendous amount of very good human intelligence (e.g. sources), and likely would have known something was afoot, even if the precise details weren’t known. I remember reading more than one complaint of the US intelligence suffering from “information overload” (just too much data) when debriefing Mossad counterparts, and turning a deaf ear to the Mossad, in lieu of receiving important intelligence. I apologize for the lack of cites. If Bill Kelly reads this he might lend some insight.

[Len Colby]

For sure many of the stranger theories on 911, just as many of the crazy ones on Dallas were put 'out' by the VERY PERSONS who did the original crimes. I don't think OBL and his dead martyrs put out the death ray from a satellite gambit [not outer space...as you add to add the old CIA Mockingbird ploy of 'ufo'. 

I meant to comment on this earlier

1) I wonder just where Peter thinks satellites are.

2) His incessant implying/insinuating/accusing other members of this forum* of acting under ulterior motives is rather distasteful.

3) "The death ray from a satellite [in outer space] gambit" seems to have originated with Dr Wood once quite well respected in the truth movement. It's other major backers seem to be Morgan Reynolds and our own Jim Fetzer. It has been pushed here (i.e. the Ed. Forum) by Jack White. Much as it's tempting to think these guys are "disinfo agents" they seem to sincerely believe this theory.

Len

PS - Who's the guy with the cat?

EDIT

* He does this constanly with me and done it with Evan and Matthew among others, it is unclear if his remarks in this case were directed at me or David Greer

Edited November 12, 2007 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Please all, if you  have not yet noticed, take notice how a certain person, who shall be nameless [but not blameless] has derailed this thread. It is his game on every thread [disguised as steering it closer to thine false god].

Quite ironic coming from the person who spams every (or just about every) 9/11 thread with lengthy posts that have nothing at all to do with its specific topic.

[William Kelly]

They [Mossad] must of had knowledge of what was happening.

Why ask that as though it is such an unusual question? Mossad is sophisticated and tough. They move faster than we do. They don't discount information as we do. They also are comfortable using unorthodox means to acquire information, such as the back door in Promis. Why underestimate them and pretend they did not?

From several books I had read many years ago (sorry for the lack of citing, but it would take me at least a week of rereading to find the pertinent sections) the Israelis have it all over the US with respect to Human Intelligence. We had pretty well abandoned Human intel in favor of Communications and Electronics Intelligence back in the 1960s. By comparison, Mossad had built up their human intelligence resources to one of the world's best (maybe the world's best; read of the six day war, or the capture of Eichmann). The only rival human intelligence during the cold war was the Soviets who had well over a million illegals. A few books I had read were about Russian defections to Israel, and subsequent debriefings where great intelligence was garnered, better than the US would get from the same sources (sometimes debriefings would follow political agendas rather than logical ones).

A lot of human intelligence isn't black or white (not absolute), and much if it can be uncorroborated ("Curveball", the German source on the Iraq WMD would be an example, as his intelligence statements wasn't corroborated, and shouldn't have been accepted, but since they supported a political agenda, were cherry picked).

My recollection is that the Israelis have pretty much always shared intelligence with the US. Reports of debriefings by Mossad included complaints of information overload, just too much raw information that would require vetting by the receiving agency, and which could be extremely time consuming considering the loss of expertise in Hum-Intel. Much of the intelligence may have been ignored as a result.

I would tend to agree with Pamela. The Israelis had (and still have) a tremendous amount of very good human intelligence (e.g. sources), and likely would have known something was afoot, even if the precise details weren't known. I remember reading more than one complaint of the US intelligence suffering from "information overload" (just too much data) when debriefing Mossad counterparts, and turning a deaf ear to the Mossad, in lieu of receiving important intelligence. I apologize for the lack of cites. If Bill Kelly reads this he might lend some insight.

I don't know if I have any further insight than anybody else on the Israelis.

My former governor McGrevey (New Jersey) resigned office after acknowledging he was gay and had an affair with the guy he appoined head of state Homeland Security, an Israeli citizen and former Israeli soldier.

As for 9/11, one of the hijacked planes included an Israeli who was killed by the hijackers, and it appeared that he was either stalking them or firgured out what they were up to and was killed for trying to intervene.

I know the bar on Capitol Hill where Michael Collins Piper hangs out - Thai Roma - a Thai/Italian joint where Spotlight writers and editors meet, and I've tried to catch him there at various times to set him straight about this Israeli business and JFK.

And if German Intelligence says that Israelis are behind 9/11, then whose behind the German Intelligence?

BK

Edited November 16, 2007 by William Kelly

[Pamela Brown]

Bill said:

As for 9/11, one of the hijacked planes included an Israeli who was killed by the hijackers, and it appeared that he was either stalking them or firgured out what they were up to and was killed for trying to intervene.

What is this guy's name? What is your source for his being involved in any way with what was happening? How do you know he just wasn't on the plane by chance?