Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Brian Smith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGmeAHvb_gM&eurl=

I hate to say this, but the two live news videos of the south tower hit, shown in this clip, seem to lend credence, if not definitive proof, to the claim that video fakery was used on live tv that day. The only explanation for why the plane is not visible in the channel 4 clip, is that it was blocked by the buildings to the right of the towers, due to the higher elevation of the channel 4 camera in relation to the WB 11 camera. That does not appear to be the case, as the explosion in the channel 4 video is considerably higher then the buildings to the right of the towers. I cannot understand why the plane is not visible. It is about as nutty as a conspiracy theory can get, but I am at a loss to explain the anomaly between the two videos.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Brian Smith

[Brian Smith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGmeAHvb_gM&eurl=

I hate to say this, but the two live news videos of the south tower hit, shown in this clip, seem to lend credence, if not definitive proof, to the claim that video fakery was used on live tv that day. The only explanation for why the plane is not visible in the channel 4 clip, is that it was blocked by the buildings to the right of the towers, due to the higher elevation of the channel 4 camera in relation to the WB 11 camera. That does not appear to be the case, as the explosion in the channel 4 video is considerably higher then the buildings to the right of the towers. I cannot understand why the plane is not visible. It is about as nutty as a conspiracy theory can get, but I am at a loss to explain the anomaly between the two videos.

Since I can't delete this thread, I guess I will have to debunk my own claim. After watching the clips several more times, I could see the plane emerge from the upper right corner of the channel 4 video. It is a little hard to see, but you can see it coming in a few seconds before the explosion. Sorry. My dumbness [sic] .

Edited February 13, 2007 by Brian Smith

[Brian Smith]

double post. sorry again.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Brian Smith

[Sid Walker]

A few recent additions to already available references about this intiguing story.

_______________________________

Chris Ketcham's latest article, finally published in Counterpunch:

Cheering Movers and Art Student Spies - What did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?

_______________________________

Was Israel Tracking the Hijackers Before the 9/11 Attacks? - a Democracy Now story and link to interview.

_______________________________

Gerald Shea's memorandum dated September 15th 2004 to the:

• NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES
  
• SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
  
• HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
  

With the title:

Israeli Surveillance of the Future Hijackers and FBI Suspects in the September 11 Attacks and Their Failure to Give Us Adequate Warning: The Need for a Public Inquiry

_____________________________________________________

Edited February 16, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Len Colby]

Shea as he points out himself is “an international corporate lawyer” thus he wouldn’t have any special inside information and presumably based his memorandum on news reports. Anyone in the world (except those in totalitarian countries) can submit a memo to anyone they want. It isn’t reasonable to expect any one to read its 166 pages, perhaps you can point out the parts you find especially compelling.

I didn’t see anything especially new in either Ketcham’s article or interview. These claims have already largely debunked on the 1st page of this thread (see posts # 1, 5 & 7).

Yawn!

Len

[Sid Walker]

Shea as he points out himself is “an international corporate lawyer” thus he wouldn’t have any special inside information and presumably based his memorandum on news reports. Anyone in the world (except those in totalitarian countries) can submit a memo to anyone they want. It isn’t reasonable to expect any one to read its 166 pages, perhaps you can point out the parts you find especially compelling.

I didn’t see anything especially new in either Ketcham’s article or interview. These claims have already largely debunked on the 1st page of this thread (see posts # 1, 5 & 7).

Yawn!

Len

I hadn't seen the following suggestion before, Len.

Perhaps I simply missed it.

It's on the middle page of Ketcham's Counterpunch article.

"What is perhaps most damning is that the Israelis' celebration on the New Jersey waterfront occured in the first 16 minutes after the initial crash, when no one was aware this was a terrorist attack.... from the time the first plane hit the north tower.... to the time the second plane hit the south tower... the overwhelming assumption... was that the plane's impact was simply a terrible accident.... Yet if the men were cheering for political reasons, as they reportedly told the FBI, they obviously believed they were witnessing a terrorist act, and not an accident."

Edited February 16, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Sid Walker]

There’s a recent update on goings on at Comverse in this recent article by Christopher Bollyn: Israeli 9/11 Crook Flees with $57 Million to Israel.

There's a rather unpleasant recent footnote to this story.

Chris Bollyn was arrested and beaten by police in Chigago, after he himself had called the police to report on suspicious and intimidating activities in his own suburb.

His post-release account is HERE.

Bollyn was working on a follow-up article to his American Free Press article on Comverse and its Israeli founder who has fled US justice. This article was mentioned in my previous post on this thread.

There's an even more unpleasant second footnote to this story.

It involves an allegation I believe to be correct about Christopher Bollyn and his collaborator Eric Huffsmidt.

Both these gentlemen, up to some six months ago, appeared to be playing significant, creative and genuinely independent roles in the so called '9-11 Truth Movemnet'

They have since turned out to be something entirely different. It's a long story and a story i do not propsoe, in this post, to tell. However, I have no doubt this is correct.

It's sad, but not the first time this kind of thing has occured, as anyone familiar with the JFK assassination saga is aware.

I don't usually get into such accusations. They are unpleasant and often add to the high level level of general confusion - much of which, I have little doubt, is deliberately formented by disinformation agents.

However, in this particular case, on re-reading this thread, I notice that I earlier gave apparent endorsement to Bollyn's work. I now withdraw it, for the record.

No doubt some of Bollyn's articles about 9-11 contain some correct and important information.

But I now feel quite confident they also contain deliberate disinformation, skillfully blended into the mix.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Len Colby]

Shea as he points out himself is “an international corporate lawyer” thus he wouldn’t have any special inside information and presumably based his memorandum on news reports. Anyone in the world (except those in totalitarian countries) can submit a memo to anyone they want. It isn’t reasonable to expect any one to read its 166 pages, perhaps you can point out the parts you find especially compelling.

I didn’t see anything especially new in either Ketcham’s article or interview. These claims have already largely debunked on the 1st page of this thread (see posts # 1, 5 & 7).

Yawn!

Len

I hadn't seen the following suggestion before, Len.

Perhaps I simply missed it.

It's on the middle page of Ketcham's Counterpunch article.

"What is perhaps most damning is that the Israelis' celebration on the New Jersey waterfront occured in the first 16 minutes after the initial crash, when no one was aware this was a terrorist attack.... from the time the first plane hit the north tower.... to the time the second plane hit the south tower... the overwhelming assumption... was that the plane's impact was simply a terrible accident.... Yet if the men were cheering for political reasons, as they reportedly told the FBI, they obviously believed they were witnessing a terrorist act, and not an accident."

It’s not entirely clear when they were filming.

Many people started filming the towers before the 2nd crash.

If they really were Mossad agents in on the biggest attack on the US in 60 years why would they have acted in such an obvious attention drawing way next to their conspicuous company van?

I'd luv to hear you theory about Bollyn and Hufxxxx do you think they are "Zionist agents"? LOL

[Sid Walker]

Shea as he points out himself is “an international corporate lawyer” thus he wouldn’t have any special inside information and presumably based his memorandum on news reports. Anyone in the world (except those in totalitarian countries) can submit a memo to anyone they want. It isn’t reasonable to expect any one to read its 166 pages, perhaps you can point out the parts you find especially compelling.

I didn’t see anything especially new in either Ketcham’s article or interview. These claims have already largely debunked on the 1st page of this thread (see posts # 1, 5 & 7).

Yawn!

Len

I hadn't seen the following suggestion before, Len.

Perhaps I simply missed it.

It's on the middle page of Ketcham's Counterpunch article.

"What is perhaps most damning is that the Israelis' celebration on the New Jersey waterfront occured in the first 16 minutes after the initial crash, when no one was aware this was a terrorist attack.... from the time the first plane hit the north tower.... to the time the second plane hit the south tower... the overwhelming assumption... was that the plane's impact was simply a terrible accident.... Yet if the men were cheering for political reasons, as they reportedly told the FBI, they obviously believed they were witnessing a terrorist act, and not an accident."

It’s not entirely clear when they were filming.

Many people started filming the towers before the 2nd crash.

If they really were Mossad agents in on the biggest attack on the US in 60 years why would they have acted in such an obvious attention drawing way next to their conspicuous company van?

I'd luv to hear you theory about Bollyn and Hufxxxx do you think they are "Zionist agents"? LOL

Eye witness reports claimed these young Israelis were not just filming (you're right, Len, many folk in NYC had their cameras out by that time).

These guys were celebrating.

When later asked why, they claimed it had something to do with Israeli solidarity with the USA.

That's a far-fetched explanation for celebrating after the second strike on the towers. It's clearly a nonsensical explanation for why they'd have been celbrating before the second strike... at which time, most people in NYC assumed it was merely an accident.

The speed at which these guys 'realized' the whole show was an attack by Arab terrorist also boggles the mind. They probably beat CNN to the punch on that.

As to why they chose to celebrate so openly, Len... your guess is as good as mine. I imagine they were asked that question by their superiors when undergoing debriefing back in the Promised Land.

Why, for that matter, did numerous people in the know place punts on the stock market, just prior to 9-11, to make a few millions out of the predictable consequences of the disaster?

Perhaps they just couldn't help themselves?

Like the Urban Moving Systems crew, these profiteers probably felt very confident there would be no serious investigation of anyleads that pointed back to Israel and its supporters. If so, they were right.

As for Bollyn & co, I won't bite, thanks.

How should I know if and by whom these pathetic individuals are paid for spreading disinformation and formenting confusion.

Huffsmidt acknowledged long ago that his half-sister, from whom he claims to be long-estranged, just happened to marry one of Rupert Murdoch's boys. Huffsmidt's radio chum, Mr Bradford Smith, spent months trying to get his fans to sign up personal accounts with MySpace.

Go figure.

It is obvious that these 'chips' were cashed in in a rather dismal attempt to discredit Michael Collins Piper and two organisations he works with closely: American Free Press and the Republican Broadcasting Network.

The silly Bollyn/Huffsmidt/Bradford Smith mindgames, late last year, may have fooled a few thousands of people for a few months. I doubt they did better than that.

It was a waste of good agents, really.

Still, plenty more where they came from?

Edited February 17, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Sid Walker]

Over the years, I have enjoyed reading many of George Monbiot's articles immensely.

I am not, therefore, inclined to be hostile to this esteemed member of the Forum.

However, I think if George chooses to post articles in the forum - articles that already enjoy wide audience reach - it woiuld be a very nice courtesy if he is also willing to participate in some dialogue.

Having just read his article about 9-11 sceptics, I would like that very much.

I'll limit myself to one sub-topic for starters, as I know George must be busy.

George: What is your explanation for the Israeli spy ring operating in the USA in 2000/2001?

It is discussed on another thread in this forum, kindly started by an active participant from South America, Len Colby.

In particular, what is your theory about the Israelis arrested in NYC on Spetember 11th 2001, described in Christopher Ketcham's recent article in Counterpunch? What were they up to, George?

As you are clearly au fait with the subject of 9-11 in some detail (sufficient to have written a damning rebuttal of the doubters' case, a rebuttal published in a major British newspaper and worldwide via the web) - you will surely have already heard of this odd affair.

How do you explain the remarkable co-location of the 'hijackers' and these energetic folk from Israel?

How do you explain the evident failure of the US justice system to pursue this case of some 200 foreign (Israeli) spies operating in the USA - with quite remarkable apparent connections to the 9-11 disasters? It was, after all, the largest spy network ever to be busted in the USA.

How could the US Government behave so irresponsbily as to release these spies so they could return to Israel, leaving behind so many unanswered questions relating to 9-11?

(Recall that the Israelis were released within weeks of September 11th - in stark contrast to the fate of my countryman David Hicks, picked up in Afghanistan around the same time the Israelis were going home - and incarcerated ever since at Camp X-ray for alleged links with 'Al Qaida').

You seem to claim, George, that doubting the official version of 9-11 is akin to madness - and that there's nothing wiorth knowing about 9-11 that the experts haven't already answered.

How come - when this issue alone represents a huge an uninvestigated Loose End?

Edited February 17, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Len Colby]

Sid I asked you for evidence they were seen celebrating before the 2nd crash*. Even if they were it doesn’t prove much people are @$$holes. When TV crews show up to film where some poor soul got murdered here (normally with a sheet tossed over them) people make a point of being behind the reporter waving their arms and/or jumping up and down for attention. Israelis like Palestinians and Brazilians have been largely desensitized to violence.

The futures trading analogy just won’t cut it for a few reasons 1) if true an obvious profit motive was involved 2) if true OBL or people linked to him could have been involved 3) it’s probably not true http://911myths.com/html/put_options.html

According to your theory these guys were Mossad black ops guys, if you’re ridht they sound more like Keystone cops, can you cite any other examples of Mossad agents or even agents of another major intel service acting in such an obvious manner

*Yes I know about what the woman who called the cops was indirectly quoted as saying, I just think it's inconclusive.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Len Colby

[Sid Walker]

Sid I asked you for evidence they were seen celebrating before the 2nd crash*. Even if they were it doesn’t prove much people are @$$holes. When TV crews show up to film where some poor soul got murdered here (normally with a sheet tossed over them) people make a point of being behind the reporter waving their arms and/or jumping up and down for attention. Israelis like Palestinians and Brazilians have been largely desensitized to violence.

The futures trading analogy just won’t cut it for a few reasons 1) if true an obvious profit motive was involved 2) if true OBL or people linked to him could have been involved 3) it’s probably not true http://911myths.com/html/put_options.html

According to your theory these guys were Mossad black ops guys, if you’re ridht they sound more like Keystone cops, can you cite any other examples of Mossad agents or even agents of another major intel service acting in such an obvious manner

*Yes I know about what the woman who called the cops was indirectly quoted as saying, I just think it's inconclusive.

I guess we get to meet the ones who screw up, Len.

The small team of Mossad agents that was arrested after behaving very suspiciously in NYC, was not, it seems, top of its class for 2000/1

Nearly 200 Mossad agents were arrested in the USA between 2000 and 2001. But the total number operating in the USA at the time is unknown. It may have been significantly higher than the number arrested.

Clearly, a big operation was underway at that time.

The general public to see the show that was put on - and occasionally, when operatives mess up and the curtain gets stuck, the public catches glimpses of behind-the-scenes action.

Actually, it's rather a joke that Israeli agents still operate undergound in the USA.

After all, so many of Israeli operatives have held and/or continue to hold key positions of power in the Administration or on Capitol Hill - and operate in plain sight.

I suspect Israelis such as the Urban Movers are used to co-ordinate blatantly 'anti-American' actions - activities that couldn't be safely entrusted to the CIA or any of the many American spook agencies, because they involve flagrant violence against Americans and their interests.

For these operatives, security must be "tighter than tight" - and a bolthole in the Holy Land comes in handy.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Sid Walker

[Len Colby]

I’ve seen no evidence they (the 200) were Mossad agents. About 1200 foreigners were arrested after 9/11* including lots of Brazilians are we to assume following your “logic” that they were all spys working for their governments? Only 61 were still held in Sept 2002* Might we suspect Brazilian, Irish and Bangladeshi involvement too?

http://citypages.com/databank/24/1182/article11417.asp see lie 24)

Can you cite any examples where people proven to be (not merely suspected by CT of being) Mossad agents acting in such a conspicuous manner. What about black ops folk for other intel services?

Can you name any of the “many of Israeli operatives have held and/or continue to hold key positions of power in the Administration or on Capitol Hill”? Any evidence they are indeed “Israeli operatives” or does merely being Jewish and a supporter of Israel suffice?

I’ve twice asked to provide evidence the Israeli movers were “celebrating” before the 2nd crash and you have yet to oblige me, should we all take that as a tacit admission on your part you don’t have any?

[Len Colby]

George: What is your explanation for the Israeli spy ring operating in the USA in 2000/2001?

It is discussed on another thread in this forum, kindly started by an active participant from South America, Len Colby.

In particular, what is your theory about the Israelis arrested in NYC on Spetember 11th 2001, described in Christopher Ketcham's recent article in Counterpunch? What were they up to, George?

There is no real evidence of such a “spy ring” in general or that the movers in particular were Mossad agents. Even if they were Mossad agents there is no evidence they had foreknowledge of the attacks

How do you explain the remarkable co-location of the 'hijackers' and these energetic folk from Israel?

This was debunked in the first post of the linked thread, please try and stay current.

How do you explain the evident failure of the US justice system to pursue this case of some 200 foreign (Israeli) spies operating in the USA - with quite remarkable apparent connections to the 9-11 disasters? It was, after all, the largest spy network ever to be busted in the USA.

How could the US Government behave so irresponsbily as to release these spies so they could return to Israel, leaving behind so many unanswered questions relating to 9-11?

As pointed out in the other thread (yes after you made the post above) 1200 foreigners were arrested after 9/11, mostly for immigration violations, only 61 remained detained a year later.

Once again no evidence that they were spys or that if they were had any foreknowledge of the attacks.

(Recall that the Israelis were released within weeks of September 11th - in stark contrast to the fate of my countryman David Hicks, picked up in Afghanistan around the same time the Israelis were going home - and incarcerated ever since at Camp X-ray for alleged links with 'Al Qaida').

Yes like most of the other foreigners arrested for overstaying their visas they were relesed after paying their fines. Hicks was “captured fighting alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan”

http://www.themonthly.com.au/excerpts/issu...xcerpt_001.html

How come - when this issue alone represents a huge an uninvestigated Loose End?

It is only a loose end in the minds of those whoses pre-existing biases lead them to believe it is.

[Len Colby]

Letters in response to George Monbiot's article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,2007936,00.html

George Monbiot treats me as a "gibbering idiot" in his article on the so-called "9/11 conspiracy virus" (Comment, February 6). I confess to being one of those who has been "infected by a virus" - the virus of scepticism towards the official fairytale on 9/11. This virus, according to Mr Monbiot, has "sucked my brains through my eyes" and made my "lips foam" and my "eyes roll". But I think even presumed patients like me deserve a right to respond to Mr Monbiot's hallucinations.

First of all, most veterans sceptics on 9/11, such as myself, have not been infected by the film Loose Change which the author considers as the origin of the "virus". We had studied the events of 9/11 long before the film was even conceived. Using our common sense and critical faculties, we have discovered numerous anomalies, contradictions and misrepresentations in the official account of the events of September 11 2001. So many, in fact, that they fill volumes. I refer readers to Paul Thompson's excellent timeline on 9/11, posted on www.cooperativeresearch.org and the books on 9/11 by Professor David Ray Griffin, whose academic credentials are beyond dispute, but is referred demeaningly by Mr Monbiot as a "high priest" of 9/11 conspiracists (sic).

As Mr Monbiot is so confident that the official tale on 9/11 is true and that he can safely dismiss sceptics as "gibbering idiots", I hereby offer to him a prize of £1,500 if he can send to me or have published within the next two weeks any verifiable evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that the 19 individuals named by the FBI as the hijackers of 9/11 actually boarded the aircraft which crashed on 9/11. Without such proof, it is simply indecent to accuse these individuals of mass murder, let alone commit the crime of aggression against Afghanistan, start an indefinite "war on terror" and lie to the world.

Elias Davidsson

Reykjavik

Iceland

By using Loose Change as the basis for his argument, Monbiot does the 9/11 truth movement a disservice, implying that there is no thoughtful, rational and scientific research being undertaken. As a starting point, the two books on the subject by the "high priest" Professor David Ray Griffin are the complete antithesis of the intellectually sloppy approach that Monbiot decries.

Owen Bellamy

Royston

Hertfordshire

Griffin’s credentials in his field of expertise are quite impressive. His work on 9/11 has been quite sloppy citing sources like video game manuals or sources that don’t document their claims, his understanding of fire engineering is embarrassingly poor and he seems not to have read the NIST report because he seems unaware that several of his objections were addressed in it.

[Order of letters changed for clarity]

George Monbiot is as sweeping in his dismissal of the 9/11 doubters as some of the claims of their conspiracy theories (February 7).

The engineer Professor Steven Jones at Brigham Young University has questioned the thermal powers of kerosene fuel from the planes to affect supporting steelwork sufficiently for it to buckle and become semi-molten. In a completely unrelated investigation, physicist Dr Judy Wood has shown that the official verdict of cascading masonry successively demolishing lower floors could not have been achieved within the time range of the seismic record.

In his haste to rubbish the neocon conspiracy advocates for distracting attention from the real abuses of power by Bush et al, Monbiot is in danger of glossing over equally valid, scientifically based concerns of disturbing inadequacies in the official explanation.

Bryn Jones

Bath

Bryn Jones is confused/misinformed Steve Jones was a Physics professor at BYU his areas of specialty are particle physics and fusion. He thinks Wood is crazy. No one says that jet fuel was the primary fuel source in the towers. Numerous fire engineers, structural engineers, metallurgists and controlled demo experts agree that the building contents could have and did burn hot and long enough to initiate collapse..

Wood was a professor of mechanical engineering specializing in dental fillings she recently released a “paper” comparing the structure of the Twin Towers, which were about 90% air, to trees. She believes that:

1) Jones is a xxxx and his theories nonsense

2) The towers were destroyed by a Star Wars beam

3) The collapses should have come to a complete halt at regular intervals.

What if the "official" account of what happened on 9/11 is false? What if, in fact, it's a lie, and a big one at that, complete with corporate/media/propaganda cover-up?

What if my name really is Dorothy Gale and I was blown along with my dog Toto to Oz?

Since when do steel buildings freefall to the ground, like the World Trade Centre?

On what other occasions have jetliners fuel for transcontinental flights flown high speed into center core steel buildings and not collapsed?

The buildings didn’t collapse at free fall speed as free falling debris outpacing the collapse wave plainly shows.

Ever watched the video of it coming down? They didn't play it much on CNN or NBC. Ever wonder why? Because it's the smoking gun of the whole thing. It's proof because it's an obvious controlled demolition, which we all know takes weeks of planning, hence, foreknowledge of the attack, which means, an inside job.

Chris Noth

Davenport

Iowa

Actually the collapses were shown repeatedly on all American and most (if not all) foreign networks. The top down collapses didn’t really resemble bottoms up CD collapses.