How the 36" Rifle Grew 4 inches

[Gil Jesus]

One of the major questions regarding the 40" rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository is how "A.Hidell" could have ordered a 36" rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago, been shipped a 36" rifle serial number C2766, but received a 40" rifle with the same serial number.

The truth of the matter is: the paperwork is fake. How do I know this ? Because the foundation of this rifle's connection to Oswald begins with the February 1963 issue of American Rifleman magazine. In it's ad, Klein's advertised a 36" Italian Carbine for $12.88.
 

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/kleins-ad-36.jpg

The FBI was given and used the information off of it to fake the Klein's shipping records to "A.Hidell". They used the C20-T750 catalog number on the paperwork and police had knowledge of its 36" length in order to make the 38" "paper gunsack" on the afternoon of the assassination.

The FBI hand wrote the serial number C2766 from the 40" rifle onto the paperwork. Hence, you have paperwork showing a 36" rifle serial number C2766 and a 40" rifle with the same serial number.

 

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/WH_Vol21_703-kleins-BOL.jpg

 

They made this error because they never took the initiative to measure the 40" rifle. They had no idea there was a difference in length between the rifle in the February ad and the rifle that was ordered later that year.

When the FBI faked the Klein's documents, they destroyed the original records on the sale of the 40" rifle C2766 to hide the identity of who really ordered that rifle.

On the afternoon of the assassination, the "paper gunsack" was made by the Dallas Police using the paper and tape that was on the shipping table on the 1st floor of the TSBD. Then they took a sample of the same roll of paper and tape.

What they were trying to do was to connect the "gunsack" to the TSBD, but what they didn't realize they were doing was connecting the "gunsack" to the TSBD on the afternoon of the assassination.

That " gunsack" at 38 inches, was made for a 36" rifle.

The fact it was made for a 36" rifle tells me that the police knew how long they thought the rifle was, but didn't know that Klein's had shipped 40" rifles later in the year when the 36" rifles ran out.

The shipping paperwork and the length of the gunsack reflected information that could only come from the February 1963 Klein's ad in American Rifleman magazine.

They thought the C2766 40" rifle was 36 inches, so they created the fake paperwork and the fake "gunsack' to reflect that.


So in the end, the rifle never grew four inches, a physical impossibility. The FBI just faked the documentation and the Dallas Police faked the "gunsack" for the wrong sized rifle.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Ron Ege]

Gil, thank you/

Admittedly, I am not understanding all.

If the basis for LHO ordering the 36" rifle from the American Rifleman Feb. '63 issue was the coupon clipped for catalog number _20T751 (cannot make out the first letter/number on the attachment), why did the FBI construct the order using the C20T750 catalog number?

 

[Gil Jesus]

33 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Gil, thank you/

Admittedly, I am not understanding all.

If the basis for LHO ordering the 36" rifle from the American Rifleman Feb. '63 issue was the coupon clipped for catalog number _20T751 (cannot make out the first letter/number on the attachment), why did the FBI construct the order using the C20T750 catalog number?

 

According to the ad:

C20T751 was 108 rounds of ammo with a six-shot clip.

C20T750 was the rifle, which came with the clip.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/kleins-ad-36.jpg

[Tom Gram]

I think that the only way this hypothesis can work is if William Waldman was wittingly involved in a plot to frame Oswald. I’m not saying that’s impossible, but a lot of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the black hole that is the rifle investigation can be explained by incompetence and subsequent ass covering by the FBI. 

However, there is legitimate reason to be suspicious of Waldman. He lied under oath about finding a receiving record from Crescent Firearms for C2766 at Klein's on the night of the assassination (he found it hours later on Saturday afternoon after the FBI had left).

Another thing that’s interesting is that there is a still withheld-in-full file on Waldman from the Chicago Field Office, under court seal so exempt from the JFK Act, from 1953 when Guy Bannister was SAC. 

I’ve been working on chronology of all the FBI cable traffic about the rifle from the 22nd through the 24th - and just got a bunch of stuff from NARA that isn’t online. It’s the ultimate clusterf***, and reflects either massive incompetence or, well, a massive cover up. I’m currently leaning heavily towards incompetence, but the evidence is so inconclusive and such a nightmare to interpret that it could really go either way. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Tony Rose]

How does the "dead-letter box" paper bag fit into all this?

[Gil Jesus]

5 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I think that the only way this hypothesis can work is if William Waldman was wittingly involved in a plot to frame Oswald. I’m not saying that’s impossible, but a lot of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the black hole that is the rifle investigation can be explained by incompetence and subsequent ass covering by the FBI. 

However, there is legitimate reason to be suspicious of Waldman. He lied under oath about finding a receiving record from Crescent Firearms for C2766 at Klein's on the night of the assassination (he found it hours later on Saturday afternoon after the FBI had left).

Another thing that’s interesting is that there is a still withheld-in-full file on Waldman from the Chicago Field Office, under court seal so exempt from the JFK Act, from 1953 when Guy Bannister was SAC. 

I’ve been working on chronology of all the FBI cable traffic about the rifle from the 22nd through the 24th - and just got a bunch of stuff from NARA that isn’t online. It’s the ultimate clusterf***, and reflects either massive incompetence or, well, a massive cover up. I’m currently leaning heavily towards incompetence, but the evidence is so inconclusive and such a nightmare to interpret that it could really go either way. 

Tom, from  Waldman's testimony beginning in 7 H 360:

 

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us. ( 7 H 364-365 )

He didn't say "we" had the record, he said they ( the FBI ) had the record of when it was shipped. This was the only time in this answer he used the pronoun "they". When he was talking about Klein's, he used "we".

So how did the FBI know when the rifle was shipped ?

Also, Waldman was never asked to identify Waldman Exhibit 7 as a document he viewed on the morning of the 23rd. This omission casts some doubt on whether or not he actually saw the document. He identifies the carton that contained the microfilm, FBI # D-77 ( Klein's number 270502 ) by saying he initialled it.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0363b.htm

He offers no testimony to prove that the microfilm was not tampered with after he turned it over to the FBI.

Then we have an FBI report dated 12/9/63 from the Chicago office saying that the FBI wasn't notified by Klein's of the sale of the rifle to "A.Hidell" until December 7, 1963. ( CD 149, pg.3 )

This document never made it into the 26 volumes.

My guess is that the FBI asked them for the microfilm records prior to 4/10/63 ( the date of the Walker shooting ), they found the microfilm and turned it over to the FBI, who then destroyed the record of the real purchaser, edited the "Hidell" transaction into the microfilm ( yes, the FBI had their own microfilm machine ) and copied it to hide the editing.

Hence, the FBI finished forgery was done on 12/7/63 and it was shown to and verified by Klein's manager Mitchell Scibor. From that point on, it was an official record.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

1 hour ago, Tony Rose said:

How does the "dead-letter box" paper bag fit into all this?

I wish I knew.

[Tom Gram]

49 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Tom, from  Waldman's testimony beginning in 7 H 360:

 

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us. ( 7 H 364-365 )

He didn't say "we" had the record, he said they ( the FBI ) had the record of when it was shipped. This was the only time in this answer he used the pronoun "they". When he was talking about Klein's, he used "we".

So how did the FBI know when the rifle was shipped ?

Also, Waldman was never asked to identify Waldman Exhibit 7 as a document he viewed on the morning of the 23rd. This omission casts some doubt on whether or not he actually saw the document. He identifies the carton that contained the microfilm, FBI # D-77 ( Klein's number 270502 ) by saying he initialled it.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0363b.htm

He offers no testimony to prove that the microfilm was not tampered with after he turned it over to the FBI.

Then we have an FBI report dated 12/9/63 from the Chicago office saying that the FBI wasn't notified by Klein's of the sale of the rifle to "A.Hidell" until December 7, 1963. ( CD 149, pg.3 )

This document never made it into the 26 volumes.

My guess is that the FBI asked them for the microfilm records prior to 4/10/63 ( the date of the Walker shooting ), they found the microfilm and turned it over to the FBI, who then destroyed the record of the real purchaser, edited the "Hidell" transaction into the microfilm ( yes, the FBI had their own microfilm machine ) and copied it to hide the editing.

Hence, the FBI finished forgery was done on 12/7/63 and it was shown to and verified by Klein's manager Mitchell Scibor. From that point on, it was an official record.

 

 

 

The part I was referring to was about the receiving record:

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us. ( 7 H 364-365 )

This was a lie. Waldman didn't find those records until Saturday afternoon, hours after the FBI had left Klein's. The part you highlighted is also false, since the FBI didn't find the Crescent Firearms shipping records until early Sunday morning, but it is possible, and I think even likely that the FBI contacted Klein's under pretext and told Waldman and Scibor that they did have a shipping record from Crescent that night - which may be the source of a lot of subsequent dissembling. The following was the official story on Crescent Firearms until around 3:00 a.m. on Sunday:

 

 

As for the microfilm, the details of the Hidell sales record were reported via teletype to the entire FBI at 8:00 a.m. Saturday morning, but the evidence suggests - to a pretty solid level of certainty IMO - that the FBI did not immediately take the microfilm from Klein's when they left around 6:00 a.m. They sent Robert Dolan back to grab it a couple hours later, which I believe is the source of the duplicate FD-302 reports, one stating that Waldman put the microfilm in the safe, the other stating it was taken by Dolan. What's interesting though is that the Dolan, Toedt, Mahan report states that the film was placed in the safe in a sealed envelope. Dolan's solo report states that the film was in a cardboard box when retrieved from the safe, with no mention of an envelope. 

CD149 is an FBI re-interview with Mitchell Scibor based on an FBI request to determine whether or not the rifle came with the scope mounted - and there is cable traffic supporting that request. They asked Waldman the same thing. It is definitely not the first time the FBI found out about the order - Scibor was just reiterating what was already known. The microfilm had been in FBI custody since Nov. 23 when Robert Dolan obtained it from Waldman, and it was examined in the FBI Lab the same day.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62255

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62265

That said, as previously stated, there is a gap and possible break in the chain of custody of the microfilm for a couple hours on Saturday morning involving the sealed envelope. Dolan may have just failed to mention the envelope in his 302 report, or the microfilm could have been tampered with. Unfortunately there's no real way to know for sure, and it's the same deal with a lot of the rifle investigation. The evidence certainly, and at times suspiciously, allows for the possibility of forgery - but incompetence and subsequent ass covering may be a more likely explanation for a lot of the inconsistencies in the record, IMO. 

[Gil Jesus]

13 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

The part I was referring to was about the receiving record:

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us. ( 7 H 364-365 )

This was a lie. Waldman didn't find those records until Saturday afternoon, hours after the FBI had left Klein's. The part you highlighted is also false, since the FBI didn't find the Crescent Firearms shipping records until early Sunday morning, but it is possible, and I think even likely that the FBI contacted Klein's under pretext and told Waldman and Scibor that they did have a shipping record from Crescent that night - which may be the source of a lot of subsequent dissembling. The following was the official story on Crescent Firearms until around 3:00 a.m. on Sunday:

 

 

As for the microfilm, the details of the Hidell sales record were reported via teletype to the entire FBI at 8:00 a.m. Saturday morning, but the evidence suggests - to a pretty solid level of certainty IMO - that the FBI did not immediately take the microfilm from Klein's when they left around 6:00 a.m. They sent Robert Dolan back to grab it a couple hours later, which I believe is the source of the duplicate FD-302 reports, one stating that Waldman put the microfilm in the safe, the other stating it was taken by Dolan. What's interesting though is that the Dolan, Toedt, Mahan report states that the film was placed in the safe in a sealed envelope. Dolan's solo report states that the film was in a cardboard box when retrieved from the safe, with no mention of an envelope. 

CD149 is an FBI re-interview with Mitchell Scibor based on an FBI request to determine whether or not the rifle came with the scope mounted - and there is cable traffic supporting that request. They asked Waldman the same thing. It is definitely not the first time the FBI found out about the order - Scibor was just reiterating what was already known. The microfilm had been in FBI custody since Nov. 23 when Robert Dolan obtained it from Waldman, and it was examined in the FBI Lab the same day.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62255

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62265

That said, as previously stated, there is a gap and possible break in the chain of custody of the microfilm for a couple hours on Saturday morning involving the sealed envelope. Dolan may have just failed to mention the envelope in his 302 report, or the microfilm could have been tampered with. Unfortunately there's no real way to know for sure, and it's the same deal with a lot of the rifle investigation. The evidence certainly, and at times suspiciously, allows for the possibility of forgery - but incompetence and subsequent ass covering may be a more likely explanation for a lot of the inconsistencies in the record, IMO. 

This document you posted proves my point that something was going on here. As of 1:45 am on Saturday, the FBI could find no record of the sale of C2766 by Crescent Firearms, But Crescent's President, Louis Feldsott, swore in an affidavit that they DID find the record on the evening of Friday and he gave that record to the FBI.

And that record indicated that the sale of C2766 was on June 18, 1962.

So what's the FBI's game here ? 

Mitchell Scibor testified that:

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?
Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed. ( 7 H 370 )

The official record has the FBI tracing the rifle first through Crescent Firearms and then to Klein's.  So how did the Chicago FBI know to go to Klein's BEFORE the NY office had found any record of the rifle at Crescent Firearms ?

And why did it take 2 men searching the records of Klein's on two microfilm machines 5-6 hours to find the shipping records ? That's 10-12 man-hours. Why so long if the FBI provided them with the date of receipt and date of sale ?

And how did Klein's records end up showing the purchase from Crescent was made on February 7, 1963 and not June 18, 1962 ?

There's something going on with these documents and the version of their discovery. Something's not right.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Tom Gram]

6 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

This document you posted proves my point that something was going on here. As of 1:45 am on Saturday, the FBI could find no record of the sale of C2766 by Crescent Firearms, But Crescent's President, Louis Feldsott, swore in an affidavit that they DID find the record on the evening of Friday and he gave that record to the FBI.

And that record indicated that the sale of C2766 was on June 18, 1962.

So what's the FBI's game here ? 

Mitchell Scibor testified that:

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?
Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed. ( 7 H 370 )

The official record has the FBI tracing the rifle first through Crescent Firearms and then to Klein's.  So how did the Chicago FBI know to go to Klein's BEFORE the NY office had found any record of the rifle at Crescent Firearms ?

And why did it take 2 men searching the records of Klein's on two microfilm machines 5-6 hours to find the shipping records ? That's 10-12 man-hours. Why so long if the FBI provided them with the date of receipt and date of sale ?

And how did Klein's records end up showing the purchase from Crescent was made on February 7, 1963 and not June 18, 1962 ?

There's something going on with these documents and the version of their discovery. Something's not right.

Oh I totally agree. Feldsott's affidavit is the enduring unsolved mystery of the rifle investigation, and it makes absolutely ZERO sense compared to the rest of the evidentiary record. The only thing reported on the night of the assassination was that Feldsott found a record for a rifle with SN N2766 that was shipped on 6/18/62 - and that teletype actually answers your question about why the FBI went to Klein's:

 

However, Chicago failed to comply with the order to "check disposition of rifles SN N2766 and C2746 in view of possibility of error in recording numbers". According to the 8:01 a.m. teletype I linked in my last comment, Chicago abandoned the search for records of N2766 and C2746 after they found the Hidell sales order, which kicked off the whole fiasco with SA Joseph Chapman from New York requesting Chicago to go back to Klein's to find out who shipped them the rifle:

 

 

 

According to a Secret Service report, Waldman finally located the initial receiving record (Waldman Exhibit 4) around 3:00 p.m. while the SS was at Klein's. Waldman supposedly found the rest of the receiving documents after the SS left Klein's at 3:15 p.m., and called SA Sidney Neel of the FBI to report his discovery - which was subsequently disseminated via teletype at 5:39 p.m.. This information was first reported to Chapman in New York at 3:45 p.m. via phone call (all times I'm referencing are CST):

Here's where it gets interesting IMO, Chapman then got ahold of SA Martin Greely, the agent assigned to Crescent, and told him to track down the corresponding Crescent shipping records:

The FBI first got to Crescent Firearms around 5:30 p.m. on FRIDAY. Here we are almost 24 hours later and the FBI STILL doesn't have a record of Crescent shipping the rifle. You mentioned that you thought the length of the Klein's search seemed overly long - how about this? Greely didn't (allegedly) find the shipping records for about another TEN HOURS after getting the invoice number from Chapman:

 

 

I hesitate to allege that the shipping records were forged due to the complexity involved (to falsely insert C2766 into carton 3376 requires forgery of Waldman Exhibit 4, two different sets of shipping slips, and the Italian ship inventory record); BUT, there was enough time to make it happen. Could there be another explanation for why it took so ridiculously long to find the Crescent records? Maybe.

The only thing Greely, Feldsott and Co. would have had to go on is the shipping slips. On the Crescent sales order you posted, I've had the thought that the check marks were made during the initial records search - like Greely, Feldsott, etc. were checking off cartons as they read the serial numbers off the attached slips, and that's why 3376 doesn't have a check mark. On the Crescent copy of the shipping slip for carton 3376, the serial number C2766 is completely illegible (note it says "office copy" vs. the Klein's version "customers invoice"):

 

Maybe it's just a shitty scan, but it's one possible explanation for why the FBI and Feldsott initially couldn't find a record for C2766. It doesn't explain why it took so long for Greely to report the discovery after he had the invoice number however. As for Feldsott's mind-boggling affidavit, I have a couple theories on that, and would love to discuss it further, but I'll leave it at this for now before I get too carried away. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Gil Jesus]

18 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Oh I totally agree. Feldsott's affidavit is the enduring unsolved mystery of the rifle investigation, and it makes absolutely ZERO sense compared to the rest of the evidentiary record. The only thing reported on the night of the assassination was that Feldsott found a record for a rifle with SN N2766 that was shipped on 6/18/62 - and that teletype actually answers your question about why the FBI went to Klein's:

 

However, Chicago failed to comply with the order to "check disposition of rifles SN N2766 and C2746 in view of possibility of error in recording numbers". According to the 8:01 a.m. teletype I linked in my last comment, Chicago abandoned the search for records of N2766 and C2746 after they found the Hidell sales order, which kicked off the whole fiasco with SA Joseph Chapman from New York requesting Chicago to go back to Klein's to find out who shipped them the rifle:

 

 

 

According to a Secret Service report, Waldman finally located the initial receiving record (Waldman Exhibit 4) around 3:00 p.m. while the SS was at Klein's. Waldman supposedly found the rest of the receiving documents after the SS left Klein's at 3:15 p.m., and called SA Sidney Neel of the FBI to report his discovery - which was subsequently disseminated via teletype at 5:39 p.m.. This information was first reported to Chapman in New York at 3:45 p.m. via phone call (all times I'm referencing are CST):

Here's where it gets interesting IMO, Chapman then got ahold of SA Martin Greely, the agent assigned to Crescent, and told him to track down the corresponding Crescent shipping records:

The FBI first got to Crescent Firearms around 5:30 p.m. on FRIDAY. Here we are almost 24 hours later and the FBI STILL doesn't have a record of Crescent shipping the rifle. You mentioned that you thought the length of the Klein's search seemed overly long - how about this? Greely didn't (allegedly) find the shipping records for about another TEN HOURS after getting the invoice number from Chapman:

 

 

I hesitate to allege that the shipping records were forged due to the complexity involved (to falsely insert C2766 into carton 3376 requires forgery of Waldman Exhibit 4, two different sets of shipping slips, and the Italian ship inventory record); BUT, there was enough time to make it happen. Could there be another explanation for why it took so ridiculously long to find the Crescent records? Maybe.

The only thing Greely, Feldsott and Co. would have had to go on is the shipping slips. On the Crescent sales order you posted, I've had the thought that the check marks were made during the initial records search - like Greely, Feldsott, etc. were checking off cartons as they read the serial numbers off the attached slips, and that's why 3376 doesn't have a check mark. On the Crescent copy of the shipping slip for carton 3376, the serial number C2766 is completely illegible (note it says "office copy" vs. the Klein's version "customers invoice"):

 

Maybe it's just a shitty scan, but it's one possible explanation for why the FBI and Feldsott initially couldn't find a record for C2766. It doesn't explain why it took so long for Greely to report the discovery after he had the invoice number however. As for Feldsott's mind-boggling affidavit, I have a couple theories on that, and would love to discuss it further, but I'll leave it at this for now before I get too carried away. 

Where can I find the source of these FBI teletypes ? I'd like to examine them.

[Tom Gram]

5 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Where can I find the source of these FBI teletypes ? I'd like to examine them.

Here are the initial teletypes I could find to and from New York on the rifle - plus some other good stuff.  Times are in CST, * indicates online for the very first time. 

11/22/63

4:50 P.M. Dallas to New York https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IHfTforHbIuIGBj9vbI5X1AgqXlyWYty/view?usp=sharing

6:40 P.M. New York to Dallas and Richmond* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nhOdC4lsfPyN7tyeF1olD0bjMwvR04ZW/view?usp=sharing

9:00 P.M. Dallas to New York and Richmond* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UBSBXInY9IxNVA_HCVcQl6YBRP2H3Vgb/view?usp=sharing

9:41 P.M. New York to Dallas and Chicago https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fLVvyUuUx2Dvrf8HOasY3CbxZLZpp1NN/view?usp=sharing

11:32 P.M. New York to Dallas http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI Records/089-43/89-43 Volume 01/89-43v01c.tif

11/23/63

12:45 A.M. New York to Director, Dallas and Richmond https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62264#relPageId=68 (Crescent records fail)

2:15 A.M. Richmond to Director, Dallas, New York and Albany* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jL--pxWoVXGikzGsO7ZmXo6NKHNZO5Dq/view?usp=sharing

8:01 A.M. Chicago to Director, New York and Dallas https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62266#relPageId=33

SA Joseph Chapman Memos: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Nda3dUbZCie1ixvP3Pk0Bl1i-fUcQ5Y/view?usp=sharing

5:39 P.M. Chicago to Director, Dallas and New York: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62259#relPageId=64

11/24/63

2:25 A.M. New York to Director, Chicago and Dallas https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62266#relPageId=142

5:40 P.M. New York to Director, Chicago, Dallas and Philadelphia https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62269#relPageId=113

I am missing one teletype from New York to Dallas on the 22nd. However, I ordered every teletype from New York to Dallas on that date from NARA from both field office files so I'm not sure what the deal is. It was sent at 7:57 P.M. CST by the same guy who sent all the other ones on the 22nd, SA Paul Brana  - so I think it was likely about the rifle. It may have corroborated Feldsott's affidavit (since Robert Gemberling wrote in his 11/30 report that New York advised on the 22nd that Crescent shipped C2766 to Klein's on 6/18/62) and was subsequently corrected to N2766 at 9:41 P.M., but I kind of doubt it since there is no correction mentioned, and the 9:41 P.M. teletype seems pretty clearly like the first communication to Chicago. Either way, it's something that'd be worth trying to track down:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62258#relPageId=15

Edited August 10, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Here are the initial teletypes I could find to and from New York on the rifle - plus some other good stuff.  Times are in CST, * indicates online for the very first time. 

11/22/63

4:50 P.M. Dallas to New York https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IHfTforHbIuIGBj9vbI5X1AgqXlyWYty/view?usp=sharing

6:40 P.M. New York to Dallas and Richmond* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nhOdC4lsfPyN7tyeF1olD0bjMwvR04ZW/view?usp=sharing

9:00 P.M. Dallas to New York and Richmond* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UBSBXInY9IxNVA_HCVcQl6YBRP2H3Vgb/view?usp=sharing

9:41 P.M. New York to Dallas and Chicago https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fLVvyUuUx2Dvrf8HOasY3CbxZLZpp1NN/view?usp=sharing

11:32 P.M. New York to Dallas http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI Records/089-43/89-43 Volume 01/89-43v01c.tif

11/23/63

12:45 A.M. New York to Director, Dallas and Richmond https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62264#relPageId=68 (Crescent records fail)

2:15 A.M. Richmond to Director, Dallas, New York and Albany* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jL--pxWoVXGikzGsO7ZmXo6NKHNZO5Dq/view?usp=sharing

8:01 A.M. Chicago to Director, New York and Dallas https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62266#relPageId=33

SA Joseph Chapman Memos: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Nda3dUbZCie1ixvP3Pk0Bl1i-fUcQ5Y/view?usp=sharing

5:39 P.M. Chicago to Director, Dallas and New York: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62259#relPageId=64

11/24/63

2:25 A.M. New York to Director, Chicago and Dallas https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62266#relPageId=142

5:40 P.M. New York to Director, Chicago, Dallas and Philadelphia https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62269#relPageId=113

I am missing one teletype from New York to Dallas on the 22nd. However, I ordered every teletype from New York to Dallas on that date from NARA from both field office files so I'm not sure what the deal is. It was sent at 7:57 P.M. CST by the same guy who sent all the other ones on the 22nd, SA Paul Brana  - so I think it was likely about the rifle. It may have corroborated Feldsott's affidavit (since Robert Gemberling wrote in his 11/30 report that New York advised on the 22nd that Crescent shipped C2766 to Klein's on 6/18/62) and was subsequently corrected to N2766 at 9:41 P.M., but I kind of doubt it since there is no correction mentioned, and the 9:41 P.M. teletype seems pretty clearly like the first communication to Chicago. Either way, it's something that'd be worth trying to track down:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62258#relPageId=15

Sorry to have you list all of that, but I'm really interested in this, Thank you.

[Tom Gram]

54 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Sorry to have you list all of that, but I'm really interested in this, Thank you.

Oh no problem at all. The rifle trace investigation is an important topic that needs more people looking into it. It’s not as exciting as other topics, and the evidence is dense, archaic and contradictory as hell, but the WC did not provide anything even remotely close to an accurate account of what really happened so digging through this stuff is necessary to get a complete history of the assassination. 

[David Josephs]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:40 AM, Gil Jesus said:

According to the ad:

C20T751 was 108 rounds of ammo with a six-shot clip.

C20T750 was the rifle, which came with the clip.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/kleins-ad-36.jpg

Again Gil...  hate to disagree yet the C20-T750

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/kleins-ad-36.jpg 36" carbine with 4x scope did NOT include a clip which was why there being one created such a problem as to its origin, the jamming or not in the rifle and even its existence on the 6th floor, like the bag, never photographed where found.

And considering this rifle was supposedly unassembled, we have him loading a 6-shot clip with only 4 bullets while not leaving a single fingerprint on brass... good trick!