Douglas Caddy Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 RFKOH-MDT-01-TR.pdf (jfklibrary.org) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 (edited) Wow! interesting stuff Doug! You get the impression from Taylor that neither Mongoose or Lansdale really got off the ground! Re: Mongoose HACKMAN: Can you remember any dissatisfaction on RobertKennedy's part in terms of the Mongoose Com-mittee with the kinds of things that were beingsuggested either by Lansdale or by the CIA people who wereworking with Lansdale?TAYLOR: Well, yes, I would. I think we all were criticalin a sense. Many times it didn't seem to makemuch sense to try something in Cuba which ~ouldendanger the lives of some of the Cubans who were involved inthe thi~g. I think ±hat that sense of responsibility he [RFK]had very, very deeply. "Why lose lives if the return isn'tclearly clearly worth it?" he would ask. And so many ofthese little tasks were just annoyances to Castro and ofvery questionable v.alue. RE:Lansdale: HACKMAN:TAYLOR:HACKMAN:~l5-Do you know why at some point fira.lly theLansdale thing on Cuba, the Mongoose operation,was sort of shifted to State? Is this justbecause he runs out of things to do?I didn't know that it had •.so, I'd forgotten.Finally, yes , it was.. it was. IfTAYLOR: See, Lansdale was really chosen on the groundsof being a reputed Cold Warrior who had wonhis spurs in various places in the Far East.So it was really his personal background that got him hisjob rather than what he happened to be--a general in theAir Force.HACKMAN: Had his appointment on that been primarilyatRobert Kennedy's suggestion, or was it yoursuggestion, or can you remember how that wasmade?TAYLOR: I can't recall. I can't recall how it becameLansdale. I would say that the general feelingwas that he disappointed us because he didn'tcome up with programs which, even if successful, would bevery . effective. And there always seemed to be a wordinessabout his proposals; they were not concise effective planswhich offered some hope of progress ****** TAYLOR: Well, since the Bay of Pigs , we really hadthe choice of ejecting Castro by militarymeans, which nobody proposed after the Bayof Pigs, of simply doing nothing and taking a philosophicalpoint of view, "Well, time will take care of Castro," ordoing something in between which would make his life gsunpleasant as possible, · make it just as hard as possible, andso to facilitate time, to be a helper to time . Well, thelatter was really what we were doing, but little by littlewe saw that Castro was not getting weaker. If anything, ·hewas getting stronger. And as I recall, the Mongoose effortjust gradually died down. I don't ever recall it beingcalled off. Now I've never consulted the record. As amatter of fact , you see, in October '52 I went over, and Ibecame Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and gave up the Chair-man of the Mongoose Committee ***** I always like insights like these. Re: RFK TAYLOR: I don't think that he did, although I would sayit seemed to me that Bob had a sense fororganization as a device, as a useful tool ofgovernment, beyond what the President had. Duri?g the Bayof Pigs we had a lot of discussions on what kind of adjust-ments of the federal relationshii:swould be necessary topermit the kind of .focusing of inter-departmental power thatwe thought was necessary. And it seemed to me that he under-stood organization and was for it, whereas I never felt that 'President Kennedy ever eared about it--he talked in terms ofpeople. When I started to work for him, one of the thingsBob told me was, "Now, you'll have to remember my brotherdoesn't think the way you do," referring to my old militarypast, which he was always throwing up to me. "He thinks<bout issues and people, and he likes to talk things out."And I soon found that the most carefully prepared fact sheetwould rarely get read. Bob had been a great help to me inpointing out the P~esident's foibles, but it always seemed tome Bobby talked my language to a very great degree and sensedthe need for order around the President, which he realizedwas not present in that first year, a very disorderly year. ****** Re: RFK HACKMAN: Did he ever have any problems in understandingany of either the written materials that yougave him or the discussion that was going on?TAYLOR: No. We had many military debates during t h eBay of Pigs, and, of course, I'd accuse him ofbecoming a field marshal after the first week.But we'd get on and argue the tactics of the 1anding andwhat was reasonable and what was unreasonable . And ever ynow and then in later years he'd say whenever I would :..;26-criticize his position on Viet Nam, "Well, you're the manresponsible. You taught me all these things about nottaking armies into Asia." Of course, he was a very quickintellect, and he was very perceptive, also he was a goodlistener during a period of time that he wasn't sure of him-self. Then after when he knew what he was talking about,he didn't hesitate to make his views known.He also had a good sense of humor and an ability tolaugh about himself which I've never heard commented on.He could kid himself in an awfully nice way--a very, veryappealing way. Edited September 27, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 (edited) Reading this Taylor interview transcript brings something to mind for me. I'm currently reading Stephen Kinzer's book, The Brothers, about Allen and John Foster Dulles, and I recently read Kinzer's account of the successful CIA op to oust Jacob Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954. What caught my eye was the report that the CIA op in Guatemala was actually failing until Eisenhower agreed at the last minute to send in additional bombers. And, needless to say, Eisenhower was quite pleased with the success of Allen Dulles's low-budget covert ops to oust Mossadegh in Iran and Arbenz in Guatemala. Dulles must have expected the same thing to happen at the Bay of Pigs invasion that had salvaged his op in Guatemala-- supplemental bombing. But JFK didn't share Eisenhower's conviction that you have to win the thing if you intend to start shooting. Edited September 27, 2022 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 8 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said: Wow! interesting stuff Doug! You get the impression from Taylor that neither Mongoose or Lansdale really got off the ground! Re: Mongoose HACKMAN: Can you remember any dissatisfaction on RobertKennedy's part in terms of the Mongoose Com-mittee with the kinds of things that were beingsuggested either by Lansdale or by the CIA people who wereworking with Lansdale?TAYLOR: Well, yes, I would. I think we all were criticalin a sense. Many times it didn't seem to makemuch sense to try something in Cuba which ~ouldendanger the lives of some of the Cubans who were involved inthe thi~g. I think ±hat that sense of responsibility he [RFK]had very, very deeply. "Why lose lives if the return isn'tclearly clearly worth it?" he would ask. And so many ofthese little tasks were just annoyances to Castro and ofvery questionable v.alue. RE:Lansdale: HACKMAN:TAYLOR:HACKMAN:~l5-Do you know why at some point fira.lly theLansdale thing on Cuba, the Mongoose operation,was sort of shifted to State? Is this justbecause he runs out of things to do?I didn't know that it had •.so, I'd forgotten.Finally, yes , it was.. it was. IfTAYLOR: See, Lansdale was really chosen on the groundsof being a reputed Cold Warrior who had wonhis spurs in various places in the Far East.So it was really his personal background that got him hisjob rather than what he happened to be--a general in theAir Force.HACKMAN: Had his appointment on that been primarilyatRobert Kennedy's suggestion, or was it yoursuggestion, or can you remember how that wasmade?TAYLOR: I can't recall. I can't recall how it becameLansdale. I would say that the general feelingwas that he disappointed us because he didn'tcome up with programs which, even if successful, would bevery . effective. And there always seemed to be a wordinessabout his proposals; they were not concise effective planswhich offered some hope of progress ****** TAYLOR: Well, since the Bay of Pigs , we really hadthe choice of ejecting Castro by militarymeans, which nobody proposed after the Bayof Pigs, of simply doing nothing and taking a philosophicalpoint of view, "Well, time will take care of Castro," ordoing something in between which would make his life gsunpleasant as possible, · make it just as hard as possible, andso to facilitate time, to be a helper to time . Well, thelatter was really what we were doing, but little by littlewe saw that Castro was not getting weaker. If anything, ·hewas getting stronger. And as I recall, the Mongoose effortjust gradually died down. I don't ever recall it beingcalled off. Now I've never consulted the record. As amatter of fact , you see, in October '52 I went over, and Ibecame Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and gave up the Chair-man of the Mongoose Committee ***** I always like insights like these. Re: RFK TAYLOR: I don't think that he did, although I would sayit seemed to me that Bob had a sense fororganization as a device, as a useful tool ofgovernment, beyond what the President had. Duri?g the Bayof Pigs we had a lot of discussions on what kind of adjust-ments of the federal relationshii:swould be necessary topermit the kind of .focusing of inter-departmental power thatwe thought was necessary. And it seemed to me that he under-stood organization and was for it, whereas I never felt that 'President Kennedy ever eared about it--he talked in terms ofpeople. When I started to work for him, one of the thingsBob told me was, "Now, you'll have to remember my brotherdoesn't think the way you do," referring to my old militarypast, which he was always throwing up to me. "He thinks<bout issues and people, and he likes to talk things out."And I soon found that the most carefully prepared fact sheetwould rarely get read. Bob had been a great help to me inpointing out the P~esident's foibles, but it always seemed tome Bobby talked my language to a very great degree and sensedthe need for order around the President, which he realizedwas not present in that first year, a very disorderly year. ****** Re: RFK HACKMAN: Did he ever have any problems in understandingany of either the written materials that yougave him or the discussion that was going on?TAYLOR: No. We had many military debates during t h eBay of Pigs, and, of course, I'd accuse him ofbecoming a field marshal after the first week.But we'd get on and argue the tactics of the 1anding andwhat was reasonable and what was unreasonable . And ever ynow and then in later years he'd say whenever I would :..;26-criticize his position on Viet Nam, "Well, you're the manresponsible. You taught me all these things about nottaking armies into Asia." Of course, he was a very quickintellect, and he was very perceptive, also he was a goodlistener during a period of time that he wasn't sure of him-self. Then after when he knew what he was talking about,he didn't hesitate to make his views known.He also had a good sense of humor and an ability tolaugh about himself which I've never heard commented on.He could kid himself in an awfully nice way--a very, veryappealing way. A fascinating transcript. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Did Northwoods never go into action because the plan was too complicated and wordy? Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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