What was David Lifton's point (a partial response to Pat Speer's musing)?

[Roger Odisio]

David Lifton was trying to answer this question:  what was the perps original plan to murder Kennedy and pin it on Oswald?  He knew the closer he got to the answer, the clearer would become the picture of who did it (the ultimate question).  Who had the power and ability to develop a plan of this magnitude and complexity, execute it, and cover it up?  We won't know how close he came to answering his question until his research becomes more available, whether in the form of Final Charade or some other way. 

 

He organized his search around an indisputable fact:  whoever did it had to be able to control the "best evidence", JFK's body and its wounds, to fit the story they were concocting that Oswald did it from the 6th floor window.

 

For me at least, we now know enough to conclude from Lipton and others, who it *wasn't*:  the mob, some rogue CIA, Castro, other Cubans, the Soviet Union.  The focus has to be on what Salandria termed the "upper echelons of the government".  Or what Ray McGovern (former CIA) now calls the MICIMATT (Military-Industrial-Congressional-Intelligence-Media-Academia-Think-Tank complex) that the perps have grown into once they completed their destruction of the American Left, starting with JFK in the 1960s and moved on to ruling the world.. 

 

Pieced together from Lipton's interview snippets, we know at least this much.  The original plan had to include time and place to surgically change the original wounds to fit their story, before an autopsy was performed.  From this, Lipton surmised the following part of the plan:

 

(1) Rush the body to Parkland where things had been set up, despite the fact there was a closer hospital.

 

(2) Send the body to the 6th floor operating room with the story they were trying to save JFK's life, and delay the announcement of the death (even tho JFK died instantly from his wounds as testified by some at the scene) to give them the time to prepare the body for an autopsy that would show what they wanted it to. This is verified by the story the next day in Dallas Morning News which read:  "The President died in a sixth-floor surgery room at Parkland Hospital about 1 p.m., though doctors said there was no chance for him to live when he reached the hospital"  They were reporting what the planners originally told them and no one at the time, or even until now, thought to rewrite it.  Lipton was especially proud of his discovery of the newspaper story.

 

(3) The pre-autopsy work was necessary because, for example, Kennedy was dead on the spot and his brain was completely blown away.  This was verified by the guy who first opened the shipping box (not the casket we all saw being unloaded at the airport in Washington) and saw the body.  At one point he said to Lifton that it was clear that no tracheotomy was performed at Parkland because why would you do that to a person with his brain missing and so obviously already dead?  Possible answer:  except as part of a cover story since it turned out the Zapruder film showed Kennedy grabbing his throat early on in the shooting.  And part of the reason for the delay in announcing the death was that they were still trying to save his life.

 

(4) The local coroner had jurisdiction over the autopsy (there was no federal law against murder at the time) so he verifies that JFK was shot from behind and off they go to the the WC to sell it to the public.

 

Right away things didn't go as planned.  The planners wanted to get the body away from Jackie, O'Donnell, and other Kennedy entourage to do their dirty work, but they couldn't.  Whether Jackie knew he was already dead or just seriously wounded isn't clear, but she stayed close by the body.  So they muscled the body away from Parkland to Bethesda where they could run a fake autopsy they could control.

 

Their ability to change the plan on the fly is another indication of the power of the perps.

 

Then comes Lipton's harrowing account of the two containers loaded on the flight back to Washington.  The body in a shipping box and the empty casket close to Jackie.  So far Lipton's story is plausible and the fake autopsy was easily set up by the perps later to reveal nothing about what happened.  So maybe Lifton's tale about the two container flight to Washington isn't really necessary.  But it leaves some loose ends.  What about the brain, for example.  How did the fake brain now at NARA get inserted?  If you don't like this part of Lifton's story it's time to get to work on a better version.   

 

Some who ridicule parts of Lifton's discussion of the plan still credit him as an original thinker.  What do you think an original thinker does?  He goes where no one else has and tries to explain to others what they don't know or haven't thought about.  He's out on a limb.  Initially at least, his story is likely to lack clear corroboration.  It's new after all.  It's easy to ridicule.  That's no excuse for doing so without first considering the context of his remarks and what he was trying to accomplish.

 

[Richard Price]

Roger, nice post.  I do have to say though, you need to go back and make a number of corrections of DSL's name.  His name is given as Lipton quite a few times.  Sorry, it's in my genes, I proofread/spellcheck constantly (a little OCD, I think).

[Denny Zartman]

But we can't really consider the context of his remarks until we see his manuscript and the evidence on which he based his (assumed) conclusions.

And, as as someone who was once chewed out by Lifton for misspelling someone's name, I got a Sensible Chuckle from this post.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

David Lifton was trying to answer this question:  what was the perps original plan to murder Kennedy and pin it on Oswald?  He knew the closer he got to the answer, the clearer would become the picture of who did it (the ultimate question).  Who had the power and ability to develop a plan of this magnitude and complexity, execute it, and cover it up?  We won't know how close he came to answering his question until his research becomes more available, whether in the form of Final Charade or some other way. 

 

He organized his search around an indisputable fact:  whoever did it had to be able to control the "best evidence", JFK's body and its wounds, to fit the story they were concocting that Oswald did it from the 6th floor window.

 

For me at least, we now know enough to conclude from Lipton and others, who it *wasn't*:  the mob, some rogue CIA, Castro, other Cubans, the Soviet Union.  The focus has to be on what Salandria termed the "upper echelons of the government".  Or what Ray McGovern (former CIA) now calls the MICIMATT (Military-Industrial-Congressional-Intelligence-Media-Academia-Think-Tank complex) that the perps have grown into once they completed their destruction of the American Left, starting with JFK in the 1960s and moved on to ruling the world.. 

 

Pieced together from Lipton's interview snippets, we know at least this much.  The original plan had to include time and place to surgically change the original wounds to fit their story, before an autopsy was performed.  From this, Lipton surmised the following part of the plan:

 

(1) Rush the body to Parkland where things had been set up, despite the fact there was a closer hospital.

 

(2) Send the body to the 6th floor operating room with the story they were trying to save JFK's life, and delay the announcement of the death (even tho JFK died instantly from his wounds as testified by some at the scene) to give them the time to prepare the body for an autopsy that would show what they wanted it to. This is verified by the story the next day in Dallas Morning News which read:  "The President died in a sixth-floor surgery room at Parkland Hospital about 1 p.m., though doctors said there was no chance for him to live when he reached the hospital"  They were reporting what the planners originally told them and no one at the time, or even until now, thought to rewrite it.  Lipton was especially proud of his discovery of the newspaper story.

 

(3) The pre-autopsy work was necessary because, for example, Kennedy was dead on the spot and his brain was completely blown away.  This was verified by the guy who first opened the shipping box (not the casket we all saw being unloaded at the airport in Washington) and saw the body.  At one point he said to Lifton that it was clear that no tracheotomy was performed at Parkland because why would you do that to a person with his brain missing and so obviously already dead?  Possible answer:  except as part of a cover story since it turned out the Zapruder film showed Kennedy grabbing his throat early on in the shooting.  And part of the reason for the delay in announcing the death was that they were still trying to save his life.

 

(4) The local coroner had jurisdiction over the autopsy (there was no federal law against murder at the time) so he verifies that JFK was shot from behind and off they go to the the WC to sell it to the public.

 

Right away things didn't go as planned.  The planners wanted to get the body away from Jackie, O'Donnell, and other Kennedy entourage to do their dirty work, but they couldn't.  Whether Jackie knew he was already dead or just seriously wounded isn't clear, but she stayed close by the body.  So they muscled the body away from Parkland to Bethesda where they could run a fake autopsy they could control.

 

Their ability to change the plan on the fly is another indication of the power of the perps.

 

Then comes Lipton's harrowing account of the two containers loaded on the flight back to Washington.  The body in a shipping box and the empty casket close to Jackie.  So far Lipton's story is plausible and the fake autopsy was easily set up by the perps later to reveal nothing about what happened.  So maybe Lifton's tale about the two container flight to Washington isn't really necessary.  But it leaves some loose ends.  What about the brain, for example.  How did the fake brain now at NARA get inserted?  If you don't like this part of Lifton's story it's time to get to work on a better version.   

 

Some who ridicule parts of Lifton's discussion of the plan still credit him as an original thinker.  What do you think an original thinker does?  He goes where no one else has and tries to explain to others what they don't know or haven't thought about.  He's out on a limb.  Initially at least, his story is likely to lack clear corroboration.  It's new after all.  It's easy to ridicule.  That's no excuse for doing so without first considering the context of his remarks and what he was trying to accomplish.

 

 

In my last conversation with David he argued strongly against Point 1 of your summary. He said the original plan was to dump JFK in an ambulance--so the body could be altered before its arrival at Parkland. He said this plan was itself dumped once Connally was shot, and needed immediate attention. 

Now what I can't quite remember is why he thought some of the Parkland doctors were in on it. I think he noticed that some of them were late in arriving and mused that they were in the ambulance in which JFK's corpse was supposed to be deposited. But I can't say for sure. 

So, like most everyone, I would like some clarification of his final thoughts.  

I think that's pretty much all that we can say--that David's latter-day thoughts on the case were confusing, and required clarification. 

[Matthew Koch]

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

 

In my last conversation with David he argued strongly against Point 1 of your summary. He said the original plan was to dump JFK in an ambulance--so the body could be altered before its arrival at Parkland. He said this plan was itself dumped once Connally was shot, and needed immediate attention. 

Now what I can't quite remember is why he thought some of the Parkland doctors were in on it. I think he noticed that some of them were late in arriving and mused that they were in the ambulance in which JFK's corpse was supposed to be deposited. But I can't say for sure. 

So, like most everyone, I would like some clarification of his final thoughts.  

I think that's pretty much all that we can say--that David's latter-day thoughts on the case were confusing, and required clarification. 

Maybe watch the 3hr video because DSL mentions point 1 in the video (the video is from Bismark lecture he did awhile ago) Lifton also in the interview talks about the ambulance.  The doctors were in on it mentioned by Lifton is because there was air bubbles in Oswald's blood. He mentions Paul Peters but it is bleeped out. 

[Roger Odisio]

4 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

 

In my last conversation with David he argued strongly against Point 1 of your summary. He said the original plan was to dump JFK in an ambulance--so the body could be altered before its arrival at Parkland. He said this plan was itself dumped once Connally was shot, and needed immediate attention. 

Now what I can't quite remember is why he thought some of the Parkland doctors were in on it. I think he noticed that some of them were late in arriving and mused that they were in the ambulance in which JFK's corpse was supposed to be deposited. But I can't say for sure. 

So, like most everyone, I would like some clarification of his final thoughts.  

I think that's pretty much all that we can say--that David's latter-day thoughts on the case were confusing, and required clarification. 

I understand your first point, but I skipped over it because it's relatively minor.  The idea was to get JFK to Parkland where things were set up.  The point about transferring the body to an ambulance for the trip was mainly to get the body away from Jackie and the rest of Kennedy's people so the could work on the body once there.  That failed but I can imagine they were still trying to convince Jackie at Parkland that she would be more comfortable tucked away in a waiting room while they worked their magic.  That failed too.  The ambulance was included because Lifton heard references to it on tapes, but it's entirely separable from his main points.

As to the involvement of the Parkland doctors,  I suspect that was one of the things Lifton was still trying work out.  That would have been an incendiary claim that could blow up in his face were he not careful.  But I think the bones of an explanation, or at least further inquiry, are there.  If Lifton is right that JFK was already clearly dead when he got to Parkland, particularly if his brain was missing, how could the Parkland doctors have not seen that?   Why the tracheotomy, the chest tubes, etc.?   Who decided to delay the public announcement of JFK's death if he was DOA (there are, of course lots of explanations for that beyond Lifton's ideas)?

It's well known that the Parkland doctors were completely intimidated at the the time not to deviate from the official story.  Who can say what form their participation took? Or who directed them.  But if Lifton is right that Parkland was set up to take JFK, somebody there was in on what to do.

No, I think there is a lot to learn from the information that has so far survived.  Particularly if you're interested in the main question--who were the perps?

[David Von Pein]

3 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Who had the power and ability to develop a plan of this magnitude and complexity, execute it, and cover it up? 

I think a logical question of equal importance that should be asked by everybody is this one:

WHY would any powerful group even want  to develop a plan involving such a complex mechanism of murder such as the one that has been theorized by Mr. David S. Lifton since 1966?

With that complex mechanism, per Mr. Lifton, including a PRE-PLANNED cloak-&-dagger "hide-the-body and alter-the-body and fake all the films and frame the designated patsy by shooting the victim from the other direction" plot.

Couldn't these professional assassins have found a much "quieter" way of ridding the world of Mr. Kennedy?

Or were the plotters/assassins only interested in being able to set the Guinness record for "Most Evidence Faked And Manufactured In One Single Day"?

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

This is verified by the story the next day in Dallas Morning News which read:  "The President died in a sixth-floor surgery room at Parkland Hospital about 1 p.m., though doctors said there was no chance for him to live when he reached the hospital"  They were reporting what the planners originally told them and no one at the time, or even until now, thought to rewrite it.  [Lifton] was especially proud of his discovery of the newspaper story.

Here's the 11/23/63 Dallas newspaper that contains the erroneous info about JFK dying on the "sixth floor".

Click to make bigger:

Edited December 12, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Guest]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:14 PM, David Von Pein said:

I think a logical question of equal importance that should be asked by everybody is this one:

WHY would any powerful group even want  to develop a plan involving such a complex mechanism of murder such as the one that has been theorized by Mr. David S. Lifton since 1966?

With that complex mechanism, per Mr. Lifton, including a PRE-PLANNED cloak-&-dagger "hide-the-body and alter-the-body and fake all the films and frame the designated patsy by shooting the victim from the other direction" plot.

Couldn't these professional assassins have found a much "quieter" way of ridding the world of Mr. Kennedy?

Or were the plotters/assassins only interested in being able to set the Guinness record for "Most Evidence Faked And Manufactured In One Single Day"?

 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Matthew Koch]

5 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Yes, that's always been my sense. Conspiracy theories are always Rube Goldberg contraptions that simply make no sense. The Lone Nut explanation is right down Occam's alley. What really occurs is (1) we hypothesize a deep dark theory of the JFK assassination because we really want to explain the entire subsequent history of the U.S., from Trump on down, by reference to the assassination and what a utopia the country would be now if JFK had lived; (2) in order to do that, we need to weave all the usual suspects into the theory, regardless of whether it makes any real-world sense or how Rube Golberg-like the theory becomes; and (3) we pretty much ignore the real Lee Harvey Oswald and the actual evidence because they just don't fit our preferred narrative.

Source: Wikipedia.

I find it funny all the theories that the lone nut community believes in like; Single Bullet Theory, Jet Effect Theory to have Oswald doing the shooting. It's funny how you guys tell us how strong the Carcano bullet is.. and you guys take a deep breath and tell us how the same bullet breaks up in a human skull in a way that is seen of the X-rays. 

Occums razor in this case goes to the Conspiracy Theorists who believe those theories are explained by more than one person shooting at the President 

[Richard Price]

2 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

And, as as someone who was once chewed out by Lifton for misspelling someone's name, I got a Sensible Chuckle from this post.

Thanks, Denny.  I made the comment out of respect for DSL.  Since I always looked forward to reading his responses (or even better, his posts), I always chuckled to myself when I saw him doing the same to others and even coming back to check/correct his own posts.  I think it was in his genes also.  While I do not normally point out such errors to others posting/responding on the forum, (except to under my breath to myself), I thought it might be OK to do so in respect to a post about him when he doesn't have the ability to do so any longer.  You took the comment the way I intended it, there was no malice intended.

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

I think a logical question of equal importance that should be asked by everybody is this one:

WHY would any powerful group even want  to develop a plan involving such a complex mechanism of murder such as the one that has been theorized by Mr. David S. Lifton since 1966?

With that complex mechanism, per Mr. Lifton, including a PRE-PLANNED cloak-&-dagger "hide-the-body and alter-the-body and fake all the films and frame the designated patsy by shooting the victim from the other direction" plot.

Couldn't these professional assassins have found a much "quieter" way of ridding the world of Mr. Kennedy?

Or were the plotters/assassins only interested in being able to set the Guinness record for "Most Evidence Faked And Manufactured In One Single Day"?

 

My wording was probably misleading.  The basic plan was pretty simple.  Murder Kennedy.  Frame Oswald.  Control the autopsy results. They were confident.  They already controlled the flow of information thru the MSM and those on the WC who would "investigate " the murder.  Adjustments were needed and complexities happened when some things didn't go as planned.   Lifton sorted thru those for decades as a way to flesh out the basic plan, and, I've argued, as a way to more clearly identify the perps who ran it.

As is now clear, this was a statement murder.  They weren't interested in it being done quietly.  They slaughtered Kennedy in public to send a message.  Not only to those in Washington but to everyone.  We're in charge and there is nothing you can do about it.

It worked.  Go back and watch Kennedy's speech about peace at American University in the Spring of 1963.  Have you heard any President since then say anything remotely like what he said that day?  Have you noticed the wars the US has been involved in since and the current size of the "defense" budget?

[David Von Pein]

20 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

As is now clear, this was a statement murder.  They weren't interested in it being done quietly.  They slaughtered Kennedy in public to send a message.  Not only to those in Washington but to everyone.  We're in charge and there is nothing you can do about it.

Ridiculous. And neither you or the late David S. Lifton have a single shred of proof to back up the nonsensical statement you just made.

And that's a fact!

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Roger Odisio]

14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Ridiculous. And neither you or the late David S. Lifton have a single shred of proof to back up the nonsensical statement you just made.

And that's a fact!

 

Well, David, if you can break away from being wedded to the false Oswald did it all be himself claim, I can offer you some things to ponder.  Like the message from the White House situation room to the staffers on the plane coming back to Wash from Dallas that day.  Particularly to those like O'Donnell and Fay who were in a car not far behind Kennedy and had a real sense about what happened.  The message said the assassin has been caught and he acted alone.  They couldn't have known that unless....you can figure that part out.   I'm paraphrasing because of course the message disappeared soon after people like Salandria started asking for it.  But they were on to it because Teddy White mentions it in his book, the Making of the President, 1960.  I've lost my copy.  Perhaps you can look it up.  

Salandria concluded that their message translated to:  We have our story.  No matter what you think you saw in Dallas, don't interfere.  Salandria was a lot smarter than you or me.  He smelled a rat as soon as Oswald was murdered and concluded that the powerful people who did it had a lot of choices as to how to get rid of Kennedy.  They chose a public slaughter for a reason.  I notice you didn't respond to how well it worked since. 

Also if you again characterize what I say as ridiculous and nonsensical, instead of addressing the substance, you will greatly reduce any chance of getting a response from me. 

 

[David Von Pein]

39 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Particularly to those like O'Donnell and Fay who were in a car not far behind Kennedy and had a real sense about what happened. 

You mean Dave Powers, not Red Fay, right? Fay wasn't in Dallas that day.

 

39 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

The message said the assassin has been caught and he acted alone.  They couldn't have known that unless....you can figure that part out.

You're assigning a sinister motive to something that certainly doesn't have to be sinister at all --- i.e., the message about Oswald being the only assassin....which was, indeed, a true statement, both at that time and now.

Yes, I'd say it was a bit premature to say that LHO had positively "acted alone" at that early stage (prior to 6 PM on 11/22), but the message was merely relaying the information that was available as of that moment. Why does it have to mean anything above and beyond what I just said?---i.e., that at that moment in time on 11/22 while AF1 was still in flight on the way to Washington, the best information from the DPD was that the one and only assassin had been caught. That wouldn't necessarily have to mean that the situation couldn't change in the coming days if/when more info becomes available to implicate more conspirators, right? Right.

I feel the same about the Katzenbach memo too. CTers assign sinister meanings to every paragraph in that memo, when none need be there at all. And, in fact, logic should tell everyone that if Katzenbach had really intended his Nov. 25 memo to be a "cover-up at all costs" memo, he wouldn't have committed such an admission of guilt on his part to paper.

And, therefore, since only a total fool or a brain-dead moron would have committed such a "sinister" memo to paper, that has to mean that the covert and sinister meanings that conspiracy theorists have been assigning to the Katzenbach memo for the last 50+ years are not actually covert or sinister at all.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by David Von Pein