Did Fidel Kill Kennedy?

[Tim Gratz]

Pat wrote:

I'd wager this Castro evil terrorist murderer of babies nonsense. . . (etc)

Most of you would assume correctly that I think abortion is murder. In that sense, Castro may be considered a "murderer of babies" since Cuba ranks in the top three of nations for abortions performed. That fact says something about Cuban society under Fidel.

But I know you were not thinking of abortions. Pat, was your statement about killing babies merely rhetorical excess or do you actually contend that anti-Castro Cubans accuse him of killing babies? If the latter, can you cite any references?

Thanks!

[Tim Gratz]

Well, gentlemen, here it comes:

Soon I will purchase the actual articles and post them here but you can go to the NY Times and purchase them yourselves if you just cannot wait:

(These are the free previews):

NOVEMBER 18, 1962:

3 CUBANS SEIZED WITH ARMS HERE IN SABOTAGE PLOT; Prisoners and Weapons in the Cuban Sabotage Case 3 CUBANS SEIZED IN SABOTAGE PLOT Explosives in Safe 3 Grenades on Display Cartridges Shown Separately Suspect Impassive

By MILTON BRACKERThe New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 18, 1962. pg. 1, 2 pgs

Document types: front_page

ISSN/ISBN: 03624331

Text Word Count 2170

Document URL:

Abstract (Document Summary)

Three pro-Castro Cubans were arrested here yesterday on sabotage conspiracy charges after the Federal Bureau of Investigation had seized a cache of explosives and incendiary devices.

NOVEMBER 17, 1962:

DELEGATE SCORES ATTACHE'S ARREST; Ambassador Says Cuba Will Ask U.N. to Intervene

New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 18, 1962. pg. 32, 1 pgs

Document types: article

Dateline: UNITED NATIONS, N.Y., Nov. 17

ISSN/ISBN: 03624331

Text Word Count 420

Document URL:

Abstract (Document Summary)

UNITED NATIONS, N.Y., Nov. 17 (AP)--Cuba's Ambassador to the United Nations tonight assailed the arrest of a Cuban United Nations attache and said the Cuban mission "is asking the United Nations to see that the international agreements on diplomatic immunity are carried out."

NOVEMBER 30, 1962:

$75,000 BAIL IS SET FOR CUBAN ATTACHE New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 30, 1962. pg. 4, 1 pgs

Document types: article

ISSN/ISBN: 03624331

Text Word Count 105

Document URL:

Abstract (Document Summary)

Bail of $75,000 was fixed yesterday in the case of a 27-yearold attache to the Cuban mission to the United Nations who is being held on sabotage conspiracy charges.

JANUARY 17, 1963:

U.S. Court Rules Cuban Attache Can Be Tried for Conspiracy

Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 17, 1963. pg. 3, 1 pgs

Document types: article

ISSN/ISBN: 03624331

Text Word Count 404

Document URL:

Abstract (Document Summary)

NEW YORK. Federal Judge Edward Wein

feld ruled yesterday that an attache of the Cuban mission to the United Nations did not have a status that automatically made him immune to criminal prosecution on a charge of conspiring to commit sabotage in the United States.

[Pat Speer]

Pat wrote:

I'd wager this Castro evil terrorist murderer of babies nonsense. . . (etc)

Most of you would assume correctly that I think abortion is murder.  In that sense, Castro may be considered a "murderer of babies" since Cuba ranks in the top three of nations for abortions performed.  That fact says something about Cuban society under Fidel.

But I know you were not thinking of abortions.  Pat, was your statement about killing babies merely rhetorical excess or do you actually contend that anti-Castro Cubans accuse him of killing babies?  If the latter, can you cite any references?

Thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "murderer of babies" comment was a reference to the alleged bomb plots' twist over time from one aimed at the infrastructure--the bombing of the UN or the Brooklyn Bridge--to one aimed purely at civilians--the bombing of subways and shopping malls. As such, it was rhetorical excess. My feeling about abortion is that as a man I have no say---I don't believe men have the right to vote on abortion issues period. Women have the right to be judged by their peers, not holier than thou men sitting on a hill looking down on them. The Cider House Rules got it right.

I suppose on some level I was also thinking of the Marita Lorenz story, where it was reported that Castro had raped her and forced her to have an abortion, neither of which turned out to be true.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

Well, gentlemen, here it comes:

Soon I will purchase the actual articles and post them here but you can go to the NY Times and purchase them yourselves if you just cannot wait:

(These are the free previews):

NOVEMBER 18, 1962:

3 CUBANS SEIZED WITH ARMS HERE IN SABOTAGE PLOT; Prisoners and Weapons in the Cuban Sabotage Case 3 CUBANS SEIZED IN SABOTAGE PLOT Explosives in Safe 3 Grenades on Display Cartridges Shown Separately Suspect Impassive

By MILTON BRACKERThe New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 18, 1962. pg. 1, 2 pgs

Document types:  front_page

ISSN/ISBN:  03624331

Text Word Count  2170

Document URL:   

Abstract (Document Summary)

Three pro-Castro Cubans were arrested here yesterday on sabotage conspiracy charges after the Federal Bureau of Investigation had seized a cache of explosives and incendiary devices.

NOVEMBER 17, 1962:

DELEGATE SCORES ATTACHE'S ARREST; Ambassador Says Cuba Will Ask U.N. to Intervene

New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 18, 1962. pg. 32, 1 pgs

Document types:  article

Dateline:  UNITED NATIONS, N.Y., Nov. 17

ISSN/ISBN:  03624331

Text Word Count  420

Document URL:   

Abstract (Document Summary)

UNITED NATIONS, N.Y., Nov. 17 (AP)--Cuba's Ambassador to the United Nations tonight assailed the arrest of a Cuban United Nations attache and said the Cuban mission "is asking the United Nations to see that the international agreements on diplomatic immunity are carried out."

NOVEMBER 30, 1962:

$75,000 BAIL IS SET FOR CUBAN ATTACHE New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 30, 1962. pg. 4, 1 pgs

Document types:  article

ISSN/ISBN:  03624331

Text Word Count  105

Document URL:   

Abstract (Document Summary)

Bail of $75,000 was fixed yesterday in the case of a 27-yearold attache to the Cuban mission to the United Nations who is being held on sabotage conspiracy charges.

JANUARY 17, 1963:

U.S. Court Rules Cuban Attache Can Be Tried for Conspiracy

Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 17, 1963. pg. 3, 1 pgs

Document types:  article

ISSN/ISBN:  03624331

Text Word Count  404

Document URL:   

Abstract (Document Summary)

NEW YORK. Federal Judge Edward Wein

feld ruled yesterday that an attache of the Cuban mission to the United Nations did not have a status that automatically made him immune to criminal prosecution on a charge of conspiring to commit sabotage in the United States.

Tim, along with others here, I'll wait with interest to read what the abstracts have to offer.  However, the Times ceased reporting on this non-event prior to any convictions being handed down, which makes one suspect the tale will not end well for your scenario.

You wrote: If Castro would send a man into New York City under a diplomatic passport to plot mass murder how can anyone argue that he would not have done anything as foolhardy as to plot the murder of John Kennedy?

The answer is really quite simple, Tim: neither event happened.  When you discover, with the arrival of the New York Times articles, that the first event never happened, perhaps it'll dampen your enthusiasm for insisting that the second one did.  I doubt it, but hope springs eternal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, we certainly don't want to get into an abortion debate here. Obviously those who believe that abortion should be outlawed come from the position that another human life is involved, and science certainly supports that position. Society has not only a right but, in my opinion, an obligation to protect all human life. I analogize the abortiion issue to the slavery issue when our society felt that black persons were like chattel and the state would not interfere with how an owner treated his slave since all the slave was was a commodity. The Supreme Court got the slave issue wrong in Dred Scott, and Roe v. Wade was, in my opinion, equally wrong. I could go on but every member of this Forum is intelligent and understands the perspective of both sides of this controversial issue, so enough said.

I saw the film "My Little Assassin" which talks about the forced aborion of Marita Lowrenz's baby. I assume that from your perspective a father should not have the right to force an abortion on a woman. Just curious re your statement that Lowrenz did not have a forced abortion, that the story was not true. Is this an established fact? (Not that it is relevant to the issue of whether Fidel arranged the assassination but her story does relate to the overall Castro story. And, interestingly, quite often movies like that are quite well-researched so it would be surprising to me if it was established prior to the HBO movie that her story was false.)

Thanks!

[Tim Gratz]

To Robert and others:

What I understand is that the persons arrested for the plot were ultimately exchanged for prisoners inside Cuba.

I have read the articles (I did pay to download them). I cannot easily find a way to copy them here but I will soon retype them so the text can be posted.

[Pat Speer]

To Robert and others:

What I understand is that the persons arrested for the plot were ultimately exchanged for prisoners inside Cuba.

I have read the articles (I did pay to download them).  I cannot easily find a way to copy them here but I will soon retype them so the text can be posted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Regarding the bomb plot, are you saying there was no trial? If so, then how are we supposed to know that these men weren't arrested simply to pressure Castro into releasing the BOP prisoners? Where is the evidence? And why didn't Goldwater jump on this in 64? When I head back home, I'll look back through Phyllis Schlafly's A Choice, Not an Echo to see if it was a campaign issue in 64... If it wasn't mentioned back then, I'm afraid I'll be forced to conclude it was only a discredited rumor that someone dug up years later.

As far as the baby murderer, in Marita Lorenz's book she says she went back to kill Castro thinking he'd made her have an abortion, but discovered he was raising her son in Cuba. (The rape and abortion story was pushed in the U.S. press and can be found on the Cuban Archives website.) She says she went back to Cuba years later and met her son, who was a doctor. Her story is so squirrelly I'm not sure what to believe. In any case, there is no reason to believe that Castro was behind an abortion. If I remember right, Anthony Summers says it was June Cobb who was somehow behind the abortion, and that this same June Cobb was somehow involved in the Silvia Duran/Oswald stories in Mexico. Does anyone remember the connection? I feel naked without my library.

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, I am still researching the bomb plot. I cannot get the newspaper articles to copy so I will probably have to bite the bullet (no neither the magic one nor the one that James Files bit) and retype the articles so everyone can see them.

There were sabotage items confiscated when the arrests were made but apparently not of sufficient size or quantity ti suggest a plot of the magnitude discussed in the book.

So the three men (one being a Cuban UN official) were definitely planning dirty business but the scope of it is still subject to research I plan to finish.

Interesting update re Lowrenz. Thanks!

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

To Robert and others:

What I understand is that the persons arrested for the plot were ultimately exchanged for prisoners inside Cuba.

Then perhaps one is justified in assuming the arrest of these Cubans was arranged to give Castro a black eye in international opinion, and to give the US additional bargaining chips in its efforts to retrieve Brigade members from Cuban custody.

Or, there are other possibilities that mustn't be dismissed.  Those familiar with the history of FBI actions against the Black Panther Party will surely recognize the fabricated "massive bomb plot" strategy, for it was used to procure indictments against several dozen New York City Panthers.  They, too, had a "list of targets" that included virtually every major NYC landmark. 

More recently, we've seen the same allegations made about a variety of Muslim "terrorists."  Funny thing how those plotters feel compelled to commit their most heinous plans to paper, as though they are incapable of remembering a list of targets without writing themselves Post-It notes.  How convenient for the prosecutors; how self-defeating for the plotters. 

Oddly enough, the World Trade Centre plot of the early 90s would never have achieved critical mass were it not for the bomb-making expertise and materiel supplied by the FBI informant tasked with infiltrating the group of plotters, as came out at trial but was ignored as irrelevant by the bulk of US media.

If the Panther and WTC-I plots were constructed by FBI for its own purposes, why should we assume that your precedent-setting "plot" is any different?

I have read the articles (I did pay to download them).  I cannot easily find a way to copy them here but I will soon retype them so the text can be posted.

Thanks in advance for that effort, Tim.  While I dispute your conclusions and the reasoning that leads to them, I have always admired your pluck and stamina.  I wish only that this energy and passion were harnessed to plumb more tenable and plausible hypotheses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Tim Gratz]

Robert wrote:

Or, there are other possibilities that mustn't be dismissed. Those familiar with the history of FBI actions against the Black Panther Party will surely recognize the fabricated "massive bomb plot" strategy, for it was used to procure indictments against several dozen New York City Panthers. They, too, had a "list of targets" that included virtually every major NYC landmark.

Robert, in this context this is certainly interesting. Can you cite evidence or support that the FBI fabricated Black Panther terrorist plots?

Thanks!

[Tim Gratz]

This may be relevant to our discussion re the New York City bomb plot. The source is a paper called "Gringos in the Revolution" by Paul Wolf. (I believe the link to the web-site came from a post in this Forum).

The reference is to a secret telegram from the US Embassy to the Secretary of State, dated June 6, 1960:

Cuban source with confidential contact in cryptographic section of Foreign Office informed DCM last night that on June 7 Fonoff received message from Nunez Jiminez in Moscow reporting three hour conversation with Khruschev in which latter informed Nunez Jimenez of Soviet Union's desire to establish missile bases in Cuba. Another reliable source has informed Embassy officer that Justo Carillo told him that approximately two weeks ago Raul Castro stated in confidence to Faure Chaumont (apparent Ambassador-designate to USSR) and Minister Interior Jose Naranjo that he was planning early trup to USSR to seek military assistancw pact including nuclear weapons. Chaumont told a confidant that Raul said "my dream is to drop three atom bombs on New York."

So the Castro brothers apparently had intentions on New York City in the spring of 1960.

Here is a link to the actual telegram:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/gringosinthe...l16june1960.jpg

Edited May 4, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

An interesting link to a report re Cubela's murder of Col Antonio Blanco in October of 1956:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/gringosinthe...ing2nov1956.htm

[Gerry Hemming]

Thank you Ron, most helpful as always! On the surface of it both the

primary articles seem to be from exiles and are written with an agenda.

Which doesn't mean they are wrong but it true they are picking up some

history totally outside normal historical sources and we would need to

see some FBI documents and wtiness, news coverage etc. - something

beyond what is in the articles and in what Ron turned up.

We do have some fairly new historical sources that show us Castro browbeat

the Soviet air defence commander into firing the SAM that brought down the U2 and almost triggered an American response - with the Soviets being none too happy about that.

While I have no doubt Castro would have used nukes, could he get them, against an American invasion its another thing entirely to start the war knowing the result.

Tim, I'd say if you are going to use this incident as a source then you probably need to go further back to try and find some corroboration as well.

I'm certainly going to see if I can find those two books myself.

-- Larry

If everybody else knows about this great but I'd like to see a source and

some corroboration as it strikes me as a serious cold war history incident that

needs some attention.

I did a web search on Santiestaban. Correct spelling is Santiesteban. I found these two articles about the Manhattan bombing plan:

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oaghf020.php

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/pulverizer.html

The first article cites no sources at all. The second article cites the following two sources for the portion of the article about the plot:

plot to destroy Manhattan in Andrew Tully, White Tie and Dagger. New York: Pocket Books, 1968, 74-78 (Tully mistakenly believes the plot was a Soviet idea, but it was Castro's), also in Andres Oppenheimer, Castro's Final Hour. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992.

I checked at Amazon.com on these two books. The Tully book is out of print. The Oppenheimer book is still in print, and you can do a search inside the book. I did a search and there is no reference in the book to Santiesteban or Santiestaban, Manhattan, or TNT. There is one reference to New York in the 1980s.

Ron

--------------------------

Fidel had nothing to do with the U-2 shoot-down. The Sov-Art/Def. Officers never allowed any Cubans of ANY rank to enter any of the SAM, MRBM, IRBM sites during the Missile Crisis ["Caribbean Crisis"]. The U-2 was approaching the 5 kiloton nuke warheaded SCUDS [Golem] sited at the Sov-controlled Banes Naval Base [Oriente Province] -- and when the pilot ignored the "Painting/Lock/Tones"; they launched in order to protect the nuke anti-shipping missiles from being pinpointed.

Due to a fire onboard their "Yankee Station" type Comm/Ship in the mid-Atlantic

during August, strategic intercom between Havana & Moscow was lost, and General Pribikov was then given autonomous authority to launch pre-emptively or while under attack.

Costner got real pissed after "13 Days" was released and he learned that NO Cubans were permitted anywhere near any missile site construction. [The flick showed Cuban engineers working bulldozers, etc.]

He discovered more O'Donnell lies with reference to the reconnaisance flights taking hits. In actuality, the Cubans & Soviets shot down 4 of our recce-aircraft, including a Florida Air Guard RF-102.

The respective families are still pissed. They got some of the same threats and actions that Janet Ray Weininger's Mother and siblings got years after Pete was downed during the BOP.

GPH

____________________________________

[Gerry Hemming]

It is also interesting that the main plotter entered the US on October 17, 1963, almost immediately before the missile crisis began.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1962, Tim. 63 assassination 62 missile crisis... (I know you know)

I glimpsed through the Andres Oppenheimer book Castro's Final Hour and it tells quite a different story than the one Tim posted.

On page 39 it states that during the missile crisis, Castro sent Tony De La Guardia to New York on a special mission, which was to blow up the UN with 500 kilos of dynamite should the U.S. invade Cuba. It notes that other versions of the story say it was the Brooklyn Bridge. That Oppenheimer, a Pulitzer Prize-winner, cites various stories of the same event, and never mentions any arrests or news articles, makes me suspect the whole story is a rumor. He cites the source of the story is Brig. Gen. Rafael Pino, who defected to the US in 1987.

Having seen The Fog of War and learned along with McNamara that Castro had operational nukes and was planning on using them should the US have invaded, I have no doubt of the man's ruthlessness when his back is up against the wall, but this story smells like Cuban gossip, a la the Russian defectors of the Bayo/Pawley raid.

---------------------------

I grew very close to the De LaGuardia twins. Both spoke American accented English, and routinely entered and left the U.S. posing as American businessmen. They were doubled during late 1959, but refused to deal with the "Gummint" [CIA/FBI/MI/Emb/Attaches/LEGATs, et al. -- but instead worked with what Roger Hilsman termed "...a private intelligence organization" in his book "To Build a Nation".

Tony was finally release from Fidel's dungeons during the early 1990s, but ran his mouth about Gen. Ochoa's frame-up and execution -- and was promptly slammed into Modelo de Oeste, and later to "Camp (Gulag) Sandino" in Pinar del Rio Province [i refuse to use the multitude of Fidel's newly invented provinces].

Tony was released again, mouthed off again, and died in prison. Both De LaGuardias can be credited with having been amongst the patriots who saved the world from nuclear holocaust during the Missile Crisis !! Four years ago I telephoned the sole survivor of Theodore Rakoosin's clan [he was one of the 5 founders of the State of Israel] -- his niece, and she was pleasantly shocked to learn that that her uncle was instrumental in saving the World.

Gen. Curtis Lemay ordered surveilance on Rakoosin [using the USAF SAC (OSI/Intel) just days after Davy and I flew up to brief Governor Ferris Bryant in Tallahassee, FL.; and the good Governor made the mistake of sending his FL-Air National Guard chief [Major General] to query the Pentagon folks, which just alerted them to the Governor's intentions.

The so-called "Bayo/Pawley raided started out as an ant-Duvalier Haitian operation, funded by persons in NYC & Baltimore [including members of the Merrill's Marauders Association]. However, through "Fat-Ass Daddy" Frank Fiorini/Sturgis, some politco pogues were brought in to hijack the Op for Eduardo "Bayo" Perez's psuedo Sov/extraction Cuba Op -- ultimately funded by Pawley. [Pawley Junior disappointed his father by becoming a "Jesus Freak". He was a business partner with my former USMC commanding officer during the 1970s [Real Estate, Oil, International Arms, Aircraft, ships, & Munitions, etc.]. The screen writer for "3 Days of The Condor [novel title was "6 Days.."] was so impressed with Major H. C. "Pete" Grow, that he included the style that Pete used in answering his business phone -- "This is the Major" -- in the movie script.

Later,

GPH

_______________________________

[Mark Knight]

I've read, over and over through many various threads on many various aspects of the JFK assassination, Tim's theory that Castro was behind the Kennedy assassination. One thing that keeps coming to mind is the illogic that Santo Trafficante Jr. was the one who kept tipping Castro off that the CIA had yet another scheme to "whack" him.

Trafficante was first imprisoned by Castro, then "deported" to the US. As we all know, Trafficante was the Miami mob boss, and the mob lost a considerable chunk of income and real estate when Castro came in and shut down their operations.

So what was Trafficante's motivation to "buddy up" with Fidel? It was obvious then, as it is today, that Fidel Castro wasn't about to "betray" the "revolution" by EVER handing the casinos back to the Mob...couldn't happen, wouldn't happen, didn't happen.

So when the CIA came up with their plans to kill Fidel, it would, logically, be in the best interest of the Mob--and, by extension, Trafficante--to cooperate, in the hopes of getting another Baptista or similarly corrupt presidente who would allow their operations to flourish. Or, to state the obvious, it would be AGAINST Trafficante's own best interests to betray the murder plots.

Or, another way to say it: Trafficante KNEW what the Mob was capable of...so is it logical to conclude that he would betray the interests of the mob [i.e., the removal of Castro and the restoration of the Mob's casinos]? For Tim's scenario to be plausible, Trafficante would've had to have greater fear of Fidel than he had of Giancana et al, if word of Trafficante's double-crossing of the CIA murder plots was to be discovered. I just don't find it plausible that Trafficante was more scared of--or thought he would get a better deal from--Fidel Castro than "the boys."

That just doesn't compute, Counselor.