NARA Photos of Walker Bullet-CE573?

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Who says he was sure? How could he possibly have been? Do you believe anything you read in the papers?

I wish we could go back in time and teach them the proper terminology.

Mark U---

As a 13-year veteran of the DPD, McElroy was probably knowledgable about ID'ing bullets and proper terminology.

I do not know Ira Van Cleave's record, but usually people join a police force, then "graduate" to superior positions, such as detectives, if they are smart guys. 

I would wager McElroy and Van Cleave were both smart guys, collecting evidence at the scene of an attempted murder of a very high profile public figure. 

I would wager against two detectives, under such circumstances, looking at a mangled copper-jacketed bullet and then calling it a relatively rare "steel jacketed" bullet, in an official police report. 

Maybe I would lose that bet. But I would give about 30-to-1 odds. 

 

[Mark Ulrik]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Mark U---

As a 13-year veteran of the DPD, McElroy was probably knowledgable about ID'ing bullets and proper terminology.

I do not know Ira Van Cleave's record, but usually people join a police force, then "graduate" to superior positions, such as detectives, if they are smart guys. 

I would wager McElroy and Van Cleave were both smart guys, collecting evidence at the scene of an attempted murder of a very high profile public figure. 

I would wager against two detectives, under such circumstances, looking at a mangled copper-jacketed bullet and then calling it a relatively rare "steel jacketed" bullet, in an official police report. 

Maybe I would lose that bet. But I would give about 30-to-1 odds.

You're certainly milking that misnomer for all it's worth. You didn't address my question of how Van Cleave (or anyone) would have been able to determine the caliber of that bullet. I doubt that even Lieutenant Columbo could have done it, and he was a pretty smart guy.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

You're certainly milking that misnomer for all it's worth. You didn't address my question of how Van Cleave (or anyone) would have been able to determine the caliber of that bullet. I doubt that even Lieutenant Columbo could have done it, and he was a pretty smart guy.

You have mentioned my favorite detective of all time, so what can I say? I am rendered defenseless. 

Regarding Ira Van Cleave, I sure wish we were in the hunt 60 years ago, and not now. 

Judging from the paper record, Van Cleave was telling news-reporters far and wide, from Texas to NY, the Walker bullet was a 30.06. I wish we could ask him why he said that, and why he authored and signed a police report ID'ing the Walker bullet as "steel-jacketed." 

Columbo could crack this case, of that I am sure. But even Columbo has moved on to better pastures....

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

You're certainly milking that misnomer for all it's worth. You didn't address my question of how Van Cleave (or anyone) would have been able to determine the caliber of that bullet. I doubt that even Lieutenant Columbo could have done it, and he was a pretty smart guy.

We should of had this discourse just a few years earlier. 

Ira Freddie Van Cleave

Ira Freddie Van Cleave, age 90, passed away on October 6 at his home in Quitman, Tx. 

Ira was born on January 19, 1932, in Clay County, Texas.  Ira served as an electrician in the United States Navy and 25 years as a Dallas Police Officer.  He also owned several businesses and was a published children’s book author. 

He was preceded in death by his wife Mary of 59 years; his daughter Kimberly Williams; his grandson Dakota Bayliss; granddaughter Alysha Van Cleave; as well as six brothers and sisters. 

He is survived by his son, Fred Van Cleave of Mineola, and two daughters, Karen Van Cleave and Kathy McAbee both of Quitman. Surviving grandchildren are Shane Early of Dunkirk, Maryland, Whitley Williams of Ardmore, Oklahoma, Dalton Bayliss of Hawkins, Texas, Delaney Bayliss of Quitman, Sydney, Ryleigh, and Caleb Van Cleave all of Mineola, Nathan Williams, and Zachary Van Cleave.  He also has five great-grandchildren, Anika and Christian Huebner-Earley, Nathan and Noah Williams, and Harper Bayliss. 

Visitation for Ira will be held 6:00-8:00 PM Wednesday, October 12 at Lowe-Gardner Funeral Home.

Funeral service will be held 10:00 AM Thursday, October 13 at Hainesville Baptist Church with Brother Terry Davis officiating. Graveside service will follow at Concord cemetery.

Serving as pallbearers are Fred Van Cleave, Danny McAbee, Paul Staton, Forrest Tyler, Dalton Bayliss, and Caleb Van Cleave.

[Benjamin Cole]

Add on:

Van Cleave served for 25 years in the DPD, which likely means he worked until he got a pension.

That indicates a solid employee. 

 

[Tom Gram]

10 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

and when one couples the last minute discovery of the "walker note" the day before the FBI was to finalize its December 1963 report, there are well-founded suspicions surrounding the provenance of the "walker" bullet in the record. There is more than reasonable doubt that this is not the original bullet recovered by DPD.  The bullet was kept in an unsecured location in the Parkland lab for 8 months before it was needed for the assassination.

That and the sole person responsible for entering the bullet into evidence in the JFK case is J.C. Day. Day also turned over the Walker crime science photos that do not include a single photo of the bullet. 

[Sean Coleman]

Even Walker wasn’t happy with the bullet in evidence? I can’t access the file mentioned, don’t have the clearance, but am sure someone here has….

 

Transplanted from the 22 nov. site.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Mark Ulrik- a 30.06 is visually larger than a 7.65 MC rifle. and as I recall, a 30-30 was a common rifle in the 60s. even my father who was not a hunter- had one.  

[Mark Ulrik]

22 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Mark Ulrik- a 30.06 is visually larger than a 7.65 MC rifle. and as I recall, a 30-30 was a common rifle in the 60s. even my father who was not a hunter- had one.  

Well, a .30-06 bullet would be about 1 mm larger in diameter than the 6.5x52 mm Carcano bullet, but even if you happened to bring a measuring device with you, how would you go about measuring a bullet as badly damaged as CE 573?

The weapon wasn't available for inspection, I'm afraid, and it would seem that the detectives at the scene erred on the side of familiarity if they assumed it was a .30-06.

 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

the combination of statements that (1) the bullet resembled a 30-06 (from familiarity;(2) steel-jacketed bullet and (3) FBI spectrographic experts Henry Heiberger and John Gallagher said "the lead alloy of the bullet recovered from the attempted shooting of General Walker was different from the lead alloy of a large bullet fragment recovered from the car in which President Kennedy was shot."  This suggests the bullet in evidence was substituted for the actual one found.  and there is Marina's contradictory testimony about where the "walker note" was stored and how she found it.  

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Well, a .30-06 bullet would be about 1 mm larger in diameter than the 6.5x52 mm Carcano bullet, but even if you happened to bring a measuring device with you, how would you go about measuring a bullet as badly damaged as CE 573?

The weapon wasn't available for inspection, I'm afraid, and it would seem that the detectives at the scene erred on the side of familiarity if they assumed it was a .30-06.

 

The strange thing of it is...steel-jacketed bullets are the rarity. If the two experienced DPD detectives were just going with what was common, they would assume a copper-jacketed bullet....

It would be notable---unusual, notable, a rarity, a potentially important clue---to find a steel-jacketed bullet at the attempted murder scene. 

I have reservations about the authenticity of CE573. 

 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

https://www.google.com/search?q=record+of+army+ordance+small+arms+and+small+atms+ammunition&oq=record+of+army+ordance+small+arms+and+small+atms+ammunition&aqs=chrome..69i57.12764j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The Army tried to produce a steel-jacketed 30-calibre bullets during WWII, with mixed results. The copper-jacketed remained the standard. 

Evidently, the Russians have produced and use steel-jacketed ammo for military applications, which they paint or lacquer to avoid corrosion.

The modern-era gun boards are rife with controversy regarding steel-jackets and wear on gun barrels. 

Copper (or properly, copper-alloy) jackets are the standard, or norm in the US, and especially so in the 1960s. In recent decades steel-jacketed ammo has shown up in the US, 

Why on earth would two experienced DPD detectives ID a bullet, evidence in a 1963 murder attempt, as "steel jacketed"?