Logic, the Alleged Shooting Feat, and Oswald's Marksmanship

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Well, if you're determined to believe that Oswald did the shooting, no one can stop you. If you choose to dismiss Oswald's mediocre Marine Corps rifle scores as meaningless, no one can stop you. If you choose to ignore what 50-plus former Marines said about Oswald's shooting ability, no one can stop you. If you choose to believe that Oswald shot so poorly with a shotgun in the Minsk gun club because he was "only along for the fun," no one can stop you.

Even WC staffer Wesley Liebeler blew gaping holes in the WC's claims about Oswald's pre-assassination target practice:

          There is a great deal of testimony in the record that a telescopic sight is a sensitive proposition. You can't leave a rifle and scope laying around in a garage underfoot for almost 3 months, just having brought it back from New Orleans in the back of a station wagon, and expect to hit anything with it, unless you take the trouble to fire it and sight the scope in. This would have been a problem that should have been dealt with in any event, and now that it turns out that there actually was a defect in the scope, it is perfectly clear that the question must be considered. The present draft leaves the Commission open to severe criticism. Furthermore, to the extent that it leaves testimony suggesting that the shots might not have been so easy out of the discussion, thereby giving only a part of the story, it is simply dishonest.

          5. Why do we have a statement concerning the fact that Oswald's Marine records show that he was familiar with the Browning automatic rifle, .45-caliber pistol and 12-gage riot gun? That is completely irrelevant to the question of his ability to fire a rifle, unless there is evidence that the same skills are involved. It is, furthermore, prejudicial to some extent.

          6. Under the heading "Oswald's Rifle Practice Outside the Marines" we have a statement concerning his hunting activities in Russia. It says that he joined a hunting club, obtained a license and went hunting about six times. It does not say what kind of a weapon he used. While I am not completely familiar with the record on this point, I do know for a fact that there is some indication that he used a shotgun. Under what theory do we include activities concerning a shotgun under a heading relating to rifle practice, and then presume not to advise the reader of the fact?

          7. The statements concerning Oswald's practice with the assassination weapon are misleading. They tend to give the impression that he did more practicing than the record suggests that he did. My recollection is that there is only one specific time when he might have practiced. We should be more precise in this area, because the Commission is going to have its work in this area examined very closely.

          8. On the top of galley page 51 we have that statement about Oswald sighting the telescopic sight at night on the porch in New Orleans. I think the support for that proposition is thin indeed. Marina Oswald first testified that she did not know what he was doing out there and then she was clearly led into the only answer that gives any support to this proposition.

          9. I think the level of reaching that is going on in this whole discussion of rifle capability is merely shown by the fact that under the heading of rifle practice outside the Marine Corps appears the damning statement that "Oswald showed an interest in rifles by discussing that subject with others (in fact only one person as I remember it) and reading gun magazines." (LINK)

Even assuming Oswald did the target practice claimed by the WC, he still would have had nowhere near the expertise and experience of the three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test. Yet, those riflemen did not come close to duplicating Oswald's alleged shooting feat, even though they fired at stationary targets from only 30 feet up. 

You seem to believe that being under "life and death stress" would have enabled Oswald to shoot far better than he normally would shoot. The opposite is true. Read some military history and you will find numerous accounts of soldiers who missed enemy combatants at close range precisely because they were under "life and death stress."  

MG...you missed my take.

I was being absurd humor sarcastic in citing Oswald's rifle shooting practice.

Marina stating Lee shot at leaves in a public park?

Ridiculous. The cops would have been called in a minute seeing someone doing such.

Lee going to "Lopfield" ( Love Field) to shoot his rifle?

Same thing.

One shot at Walker...that missed!

Play aiming and shooting his rifle at home like some kid with a BB gun?

I cite the disparities of Oswald's "alleged" shooting feat at JFK that defied the abilities of the top marksmen in the country.

I mention the added elements of target movement, and life and death pressure stress that Oswald was most assuredly experiencing while shooting, especially during the last near bullseye shot into JFK's 8 inch wide skull.

My post point was the absurdity of Oswald being the lone shooter at JFK and how he could perform shooting skills beyond those of master marksmen shooting at targets with less movement and under non-life and death fearing conditions.

 

[Ron Ege]

22 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

MG...you missed my take.

I was being absurd humor sarcastic in citing Oswald's rifle shooting practice.

Marina stating Lee shot at leaves in a public park?

Ridiculous. The cops would have been called in a minute seeing someone doing such.

Lee going to "Lopfield" ( Love Field) to shoot his rifle?

Same thing.

One shot at Walker...that missed!

Play aiming and shooting his rifle at home like some kid with a BB gun?

I cite the disparities of Oswald's "alleged" shooting feat at JFK that defied the abilities of the top marksmen in the country.

I mention the added elements of target movement, and life and death pressure stress that Oswald was most assuredly experiencing while shooting, especially during the last near bullseye shot into JFK's 8 inch wide skull.

My post point was the absurdity of Oswald being the lone shooter at JFK and how he could perform shooting skills beyond those of master marksmen shooting at targets with less movement and under non-life and death fearing conditions.

 

👍👏

[Michael Griffith]

44 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

MG...you missed my take.

I was being absurd humor sarcastic in citing Oswald's rifle shooting practice.

Marina stating Lee shot at leaves in a public park?

Ridiculous. The cops would have been called in a minute seeing someone doing such.

Lee going to "Lopfield" ( Love Field) to shoot his rifle?

Same thing.

One shot at Walker...that missed!

Play aiming and shooting his rifle at home like some kid with a BB gun?

I cite the disparities of Oswald's "alleged" shooting feat at JFK that defied the abilities of the top marksmen in the country.

I mention the added elements of target movement, and life and death pressure stress that Oswald was most assuredly experiencing while shooting, especially during the last near bullseye shot into JFK's 8 inch wide skull.

My post point was the absurdity of Oswald being the lone shooter at JFK and how he could perform shooting skills beyond those of master marksmen shooting at targets with less movement and under non-life and death fearing conditions.

Oh my goodness! LOL! You certainly fooled me! I thought you were serious! I have edited my reply to reflect my new understanding of your post. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Joe Bauer]

Just reread some of Marina's 1964 WC testimony regards Lee and his rifle.

She mentions seeing the rifle disassembled in one of her and Lee's apartments they rented.

Obviously, she knew that the rifle could be broken down like that.

Just a curious admission by her imo.

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

 

Some seem to believe that being under "life and death stress" would have enabled Oswald to shoot far better than he normally would shoot. The opposite is true. Read some military history and you will find numerous accounts of soldiers who missed enemy combatants at close range precisely because they were under "life and death stress."  

I haven't read "a ton" of military combat memoirs by foot soldiers who went through the true "heat of battle" experience.

I have however always found TV shows and on-line stories of such very interesting and it's one of my main watching subjects.

Still, I recall many accounts shared where the soldiers in these direct fire battles said they just shot their weapons at anything that moved. In a desperate self defense way. That the random barrage itself was the best thing they could think of to keep the enemy at bay.

In Oswald's case...the immediate death threat enemy would have been hyper-frantic police forces who could have discovered his shooting location at any minute and come in guns a blazing to make mince meat of his person.

If Oswald wasn't sweating by the time of his last JFK head shot firing after two loud location revealing ones seconds earlier...the man was a non-human "Terminator" movie robot or a brainwashed "Manchurian Candidate" ...imo anyways.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

18 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Still, I recall many accounts shared where the soldiers in these direct fire battles said they just shot their weapons at anything that moved. In a desperate self defense way. That the random barrage itself was the best thing they could think of to keep the enemy at bay.

Yes, exactly. And that's why soldiers in those situations so often missed their targets even at close range. They were too scared, tense, and panicky to take careful aim and to avoid jerking the trigger and/or the entire rifle. When you're frightened, excited, and panicky, you act on reflex and impulse. The amygdala part of the brain takes over. It's a type of "fight or flight" response, not at all conducive to taking careful aim, controlling your breathing, and evenly squeezing the trigger. 

The WC's rifle test is crucial because it was the only rifle test where the alleged murder weapon itself was used, and because the riflemen were experienced world-class marksmen.

[Joe Bauer]

Between the 2nd back shot and 3rd head shot, Oswald's scope aiming would have been in a constant micro-second state of adjustment.

With JFK's head as a target, between the second and third shot JFK's head was constantly moving.

In the two seconds plus time period starting with JFK being hit in the back with his fists involuntarily rising up to his throat, his then turning his head toward Jackie in agonal distress and then Jackie grabbing and pulling him close to her, JFK's head and upper body is constantly moving.

The distance of JFK's upper body movement from his straight up sitting position to leaning down next to Jackie is 2 full feet.

And all during JFK's 2nd to 3rd shot shifting left movement his limo is also moving farther away forward and on a downward grade to boot.

That's 3 different movement dynamics of Oswald's JFK head target.

Oswald had to continually adjust his scope aim for all three?

And in how much time?

When the top marksmen were trying to duplicate Oswald's JFK head shot...was their target moving left two feet as JFK's upper body was in the 2 seconds right before their shot, as well as the target holder moving farther away from them at a downward angle at the very same time?

And remember, that right after the 2nd JFK back shot Oswald would have to eject that spent cartridge and reload another one which would have taken what...another second or two?

Which meant that Oswald would have had even less time ( one second or less? ) to re-sight his scope aim.

All with JFK's upper body moving 3 different ways the entire time?

Like I said earlier, JFK's near bullseye head shot was a target hitting achievement for the ages.

One top marksmen had a difficult time replicating even without the full 3 way JFK head and upper body movement Oswald had to adjust for and with only one stressful second to this as well.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:41 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Between the 2nd back shot and 3rd head shot, Oswald's scope aiming would have been in a constant micro-second state of adjustment.

With JFK's head as a target, between the second and third shot JFK's head was constantly moving.

Within a second or two right after JFK is hit in the back and his fists pull up to his throat and he turns his head toward Jackie in agonal distress, Jackie grabs him and pulls him to her. The distance of JFK's upper body movement from his uptight sitting position to leaning down next to Jackie is 2 feet.

All during JFK's 2nd to 3rd shot shifting left movement his limo is moving farther away forward and on a downward grade to boot.

That's 3 different movement dynamics of Oswald's JFK head target.

Oswald had to adjust for all three? And in how much time?

When the top marksmen were trying to duplicate Oswald's JFK head shot...was their target moving left two feet as JFK's upper body was in the 2 seconds right before their shot, as well as the target holder moving away from them at a downward angle at the very same time?

And remember, that right after the 2nd JFK back shot Oswald would have to eject that spent cartridge and reload another one which would have taken what...another second or two?

Which meant that Oswald would have had even less time to resight his scope aim.

All with JFK's upper body moving 3 different ways the entire time?

Like I said earler, JFK's near bullseye head shot was a target hitting achievement for the ages.

One top marksmen had a difficult time replicating even without the full JFK head movement Oswald had to adjust for.

And then there's the crucial fact that one of the three shells found in the sniper's nest could not have been used to fire a bullet that day because it was markedly dented. Thus, whoever fired from that window could have only fired two shots. 

The Dented Shell: Hard Evidence of Conspiracy in the JFK Assassination

[David Josephs]

On 5/2/2023 at 12:26 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Oswald did a lot of target practice in the months before 11,22,1963.

C'mon Joe... really? or you just being sarcastic here?

Before he gets to practice, he needs to actually have the rifle...  that never happened my friend.  There is more than enough material, well beyond the work I've done standing on the shoulders of those before me and adding what I could, that proves beyond doubt that Oswald and that rifle were mutually exclusive.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-the-carbine-on-the-6th-floor 
https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf 

 

[Joe Bauer]

48 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

C'mon Joe... really? Or are you just being sarcastic here?

Of course I was being sarcastic DJ.

Looks like you missed this as MG did earlier.

[David Josephs]

38 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Of course I was being sarcastic DJ.

Looks like you missed this as MG did earlier.

  I gotta pay more attention...  what troubles me is that sarcasm to us becomes re-quotable fact for others as they copy and paste into their arguments elsewhere to try and prove a point about Conspiracy Realists.

Marina's testimony...    She knew everything they told her to know... although it sometimes took 3 or 4 takes for it to stick.

On 5/3/2023 at 12:51 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Just reread some of Marina's 1964 WC testimony regards Lee and his rifle.

She mentions seeing the rifle disassembled in one of her and Lee's apartments they rented.

Obviously, she knew that the rifle could be broken down like that.

Just a curious admission by her imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

On 5/2/2023 at 7:50 PM, Sean Coleman said:

So how did John Doe do it? Was he a cheat?

The grader of the paper added in the correct answers for him...after he finished the test

y'know, so he could get a better score...

[Michael Griffith]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Of course I was being sarcastic DJ.

Looks like you missed this as MG did earlier.

Now I don't feel so silly for not realizing that you were being sarcastic!

[Joe Bauer]

And we aren't even including the bullet hole size and shape indentation in the upper inner side of the hard steel windshield frame.

Which one can see was made by a projectile coming in from the general direction of the other shots.

The bullet that shattered JFK's skull was fragmented into pieces much smaller than the indentation hole diameter and the other one was supposedly found on a stretcher 95% intact? 

Two shot sounds reported by hundreds, 3 bullet damage?

Think about that for a minute Barn.

Gosh, your right Andy!

Oh boy...we've got a real humdinger whodunit criminal mystery right here in Mayberry!

[Michael Griffith]

21 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

And we aren't even including the bullet hole size and shape indentation in the upper inner side of the hard steel windshield frame.

Which one can see was made by a projectile coming in from the general direction of the other shots.

The bullet that shattered JFK's skull was fragmented into pieces much smaller than the indentation hole diameter and the other one was supposedly found on a stretcher 95% intact? 

Yes, very good point. The bullet-shaped dent in the windshield frame is another fatal fact for the lone-gunman theory. 

And then there's the bullet mark in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street observed and reported by Eugene Aldredge. From my article "Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza":

          Within a day or two of the assassination, Dallas resident Eugene Aldredge saw a dug-out, four-inch-long bullet mark in the middle of the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street, which is the side nearest the TSBD. Aldredge did not tell the FBI about the mark
until shortly after the release of the Warren Commission Report because he assumed,
logically enough, that the mark had surely been noticed by law enforcement officials and
would be discussed in full in the Commission's report. When he realized that the mark
apparently had been "overlooked," he immediately contacted the FBI and told them
about it (Weisberg 383-390). Aldredge related to the FBI that Carl Freund, a reporter for
the Dallas Morning News, had also identified the mark as a bullet mark.

          Less than a week after Aldredge informed the FBI of the mark's existence and location, he took a friend to see it. They found the mark, but saw that it had been altered--it had been filled in. Said Aldredge,

                   . . . we went to the site and found the mark, [which was] formerly about 1/4 inch deep, had been filled in with what appeared to be a mixture of concrete and
asbestos. . . .

          A crude attempt had been made to make the altered mark appear to be weather-worn to match the surrounding concrete.

          In its report on the mark, the FBI admitted to locating it and described it as being approximately 4 inches long, 1/2 inch wide, and "dug out." And why did the FBI dismiss
the significance of this mark? Because, explained the Bureau, it could not have been
made by a shot from the window from which Oswald allegedly fired.

Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza