"Were the Tippit crime scene shell hulls fired from the revolver of Lee Harvey Oswald?"

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Again Greg, a great hypothesis but little is offered to support it... what people "could" have done is not the same as what they actually did.  Dallas was not some podunk town but a huge city with more than 1 crime perpetrated between 11/22 and 11/24. 

I think your hypothesis is a solid one and I'd like to take some time and dig into it, if you'll bear with me as I do so and will get back to you.  I'd love to find the connecting pieces in support of this find.  Stay tuned. 

Can you find a murder by handgun in the Dallas area within recent days of Nov 23, 1963? I cannot. Only Tippit, 18 hours before discovery of the paper-bag revolver of same caliber which killed tippit.

Can you think of a reasonable innocent explanation for a revolver tossed in a paper bag on a street at night?

I can’t. 

There is one and only one reason why that paper-bag revolver was not suspected to be the murder weapon in the only known recent homicide by handgun in the Dallas area: because, in the words attributed to LBJ, they already “had their man”, Oswald. 

The FACT that that paper-bag revolver was disappeared and undisclosed with no known forensic testing or whereabouts of that item of physical evidence, suggests coverup. 

Craford not meets three key and necessary criteria in the profile of the tippit killer: mistaken for Oswald in the view of witnesses (witnesses) although he isn’t Oswald (fingerprints); skilled gunman (evidence of bullet in right temple); and reputation for contract killing (tippit killing was an ambush and execution not an impulse or passion killing).

But he has other characteristics which might also be part of the killer’s profile: 

— he is photographed with an identically colored waistlength jacket a week later to the one abandoned by the tippit killer (off-white light tan). 

— he has thick, wavy dark brown hair, in agreement with some reported witness descriptions of “bushy” and “wavy” and “dark” hair of the killer.

— he is employed by Ruby

— he fled Dallas Saturday morning Nov 23, which WC counsel Burt Griffin reportedly found poorly-explained.

— And he can be placed in a car at the exact location where somebody tossed the murder weapon in a paper bag, about three hours before it was found there.

Either Tippit was killed by Oswald or by somebody else who witnesses confused with Oswald. The main exculpatory arguments for clearing Oswald are no reason for him to have gone to the scene of the crime; excluded match to fingerprints; and not a skilled enough shot to put a bullet through a brain as was done to Tippit. 

if it isn’t Oswald then it is reasonable to look at Craford who checks all the boxes of the profile of the killer.

Craford has an alibi but only one, Andy Armstrong at the Carousel Club. If Andy Armstrong was willing as a favor to provide that alibi even though not true, then there is no other alibi clearing Craford from being a suspect (unless one takes the position that it is so clear oswald did it that Craford is by definition exculpated on that grounds alone). 

I did not realize a year ago that Lamar and Ross, where the paper bag with revolver was found, was not simply in proximity, but EXACTLY on the route to the Stemmons Freeway driven by Ruby with Craford in the back seat just before that paper bag was found at daylight. 

[David Josephs]

And here are the footnoted FBI reports we've been discussing found in the FBI files in various folders which took some time and digging to finally locate...

ROCK ISLAND - the recipient of the pistol - has no record of that serial number for a .38 special, as mentioned in the final document below, is concerning since we'd never know if this was just more FBI double-speak, or a reality.

What's even more concerning is that in the previous sentence, the same Dep Sheriff of ROCK ISLAND ARSENAL (AMSWE-SMD-I) George MAYERNICK  says there is no record of V510210.  The pistol attributed to Oswald's killing of Tippit which was sent from Century Int'l Arms of Canada to Seaport in Los Angeles.. the same company who shipped a FC 40" Carcano with serial #2766, no prefix, in June 1962.  There is no mention of V510210 up to that point in this discussion so one has to wonder why it is included here... and since both show no record, the significance remains unknown at this point.

[Greg Doudna]

David, the way to get to Central Expressway and Hall, location of the billboard, from the Carousel Club, if one wants to get there the easy way by freeway, is get on the Stemmons going south, then turn east on the central expressway and that takes you right there. 

The route you have drawn getting there is through city streets, zigzagging and stop and go. I agree if the zigzag stop n go through city streets was done that would not go past where the paper bag with revolver was tossed which would be on the way to the freeway route of getting there (probably a lot quicker by freeway all the way and less chance of getting lost at night too). 

[David Josephs]

Just now, Greg Doudna said:

Can you find a murder by handgun in the Dallas area within recent days of Nov 23, 1963? I cannot. Only Tippit, 18 hours before discovery of the paper-bag revolver of same caliber which killed tippit.

{Sigh}

So if I follow your logic, if a handgun is found anywhere in Dallas that weekend it must automatically be associated with a murder happening very recently despite it being a pistol which 100's if not thousands of officers carry daily and not to mention the criminals and/or citizens who may also own that model.

3 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Can you think of a reasonable innocent explanation for a revolver tossed in a paper bag on a street at night?

I can’t. 

And therein lies the problem Greg...  you not being able to arrive at a suitable answer has little to do with the facts, evidence and search for why anything happens.

We don't need a "reasonable innocent explanation"... what we need is evidence which connects what you are trying to connect beyond speculation.

Please understand I am not saying you are wrong Greg, just that you've done little to offer convincing support for the hypothesis beyond "what else could it have possible been?"

6 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

if it isn’t Oswald then it is reasonable to look at Craford who checks all the boxes of the profile of the killer.

And it is also reasonable to consider Ivan Vaganov... have you read his story?  Here is a map with some key locations from that day...  Vaganov looks a bit like LHO and is virtually down the street and would approach from the west.  Was also potentially the man seen at the El Chico.

And finally for this round, I just showed you that CRAFARD testified he was mistaken about the STEMMONS freeway and the map I posted showed where that sign most likely was... by another Freeway and S. Hall street.

Do you bother to read the replies or simply post guns blazing? 

10 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I did not realize a year ago that Lamar and Ross, where the paper bag with revolver was found, was not simply in proximity, but EXACTLY on the route to the Stemmons Freeway driven by Ruby with Craford in the back seat just before that paper bag was found at daylight.

[Greg Doudna]

Vanagov for sure was not the gunman because Vanagov was 6’2” as I recall, much taller than all the witnesses said. 

[David Josephs]

Just now, Greg Doudna said:

David, the way to get to Central Expressway and Hall, location of the billboard, from the Carousel Club, if one wants to get there the easy way by freeway, is get on the Stemmons going south, then turn east on the central expressway and that takes you right there. 

The route you have drawn getting there is through city streets, zigzagging and stop and go. I agree if the zigzag stop n go through city streets was done that would not go past where the paper bag with revolver was tossed which would be on the way to the freeway route of getting there (probably a lot quicker by freeway all the way and less chance of getting lost at night too). 

Again Greg, read the Crafard testimony I posted.. a direct recant of them ever using the Stemmons freeway. How many people have to say that what the FBI wrote in the report was not what the witnesses or POI's actually said or meant.

No it is not.  and at 5am I 'd doubt there'd be much traffic to deal with as one simply traveled 1.6 miles in less than 8 minutes.

[Greg Doudna]

Also David you’re citing the Tatum coup de grace idea of Moriarty of HSCA. I used to think that until Steve Roe pointed me to the autopsy and I studied gunshot wound information excluding that head shot was contact or point blank, it was from distance. Plus, Tatum himself never claimed to see a shot at point blank range. And what Tatum did claim of the gunman running around the back of the car has been well refuted for reasons given by Myers in a blog post, namely no other witnesses saw that or heard that kind of time gap before a final shot. It’s obvious to me now Tatum must have confused seeing a witness, not the gunman. That means the head shot to the brain tippit received was from the gunmans position feet away across the car. Then it is either a lucky hit (if it’s a non skilled handgun shooter like Oswald) or else it was intentional from a skilled shooter. 

[David Josephs]

5 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Vanagov for sure was not the gunman because Vanagov was 6’2” as I recall, much taller than all the witnesses said. 

 

This comes from Armstrong's notebooks compiled over 10 years of visiting the National Archives.  He and Malcolm worked with Carol Hewitt to sus out the vast amounts of data they compiled.  This being about Igor (not Ivan, my mistake)

Rather than take his (Igor) wife Martha with him, he ran away with a teenage girl named Anne Dulin and committed bigamy by marrying Anne in South Carolina. This elopement did not please Anne's stepfather, Stan Cukowski from Village Green, PA, who reported the matter to juvenile authorities and who in the course of his complaint mentioned that Vaganov claimed to have urgent business in Dallas and was traveling in a red Ford Thunderbird with a 2-way radio, a .38 pistol, and a rifle. 

Benavides describes a red ford falcon he sees at the Tippit scene and the FBI picks up Vaganov almost as quickly as the DPD snags Oswald.

See the final paragraph.  Not at the Tippit scene but parked in front of Ruby's...  more and more interesting, no?

Mr. BENAVIDES - No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.
I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and he pulled over.

[David Josephs]

2 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Also David you’re citing the Tatum coup de grace idea of Moriarty of HSCA. I used to think that until Steve Roe pointed me to the autopsy and I studied gunshot wound information excluding that head shot was contact or point blank, it was from distance. Plus, Tatum himself never claimed to see a shot at point blank range. And what Tatum did claim of the gunman running around the back of the car has been well refuted for reasons given by Myers in a blog post, namely no other witnesses saw that or heard that kind of time gap before a final shot. It’s obvious to me now Tatum must have confused seeing a witness, not the gunman. That means the head shot to the brain tippit received was from the gunmans position feet away across the car. Then it is either a lucky hit (if it’s a non skilled handgun shooter like Oswald) or else it was intentional from a skilled shooter. 

Tatum does not say point blank, only that he stood over him... the barrel would be at leas 3-5 feet from Tippit so I see no conflict.  And who goes over to someone they have shot already in the head to shot again in his stomach?  That makes sense to you?

As to the different witnesses, I posted the # of shots as described by half dozen of the witnesses and they are all over the place.  The ambulance driver claims that Tippit was covered in a Blue Jacket when he got there, had to lift it off to confirm what happened...  no one ever mentions that either.

Croy claims he was there first among a whole bunch of bs he spews.

"intentional from a skilled shooter".  

[Greg Doudna]

Also, Craford in his Warren Commission testimony did not clearly recant his earlier FBI interview naming of the Stemmons Freeway as you keep insisting (and if he did it would be of little actual consequence since what Craford claims is not decisive here). He said he wasn’t sure of Stemmons in his later WC testimony, but that’s what he told the FBI in the first place when he named it. He wasn’t saying for sure they didn’t go on the Stemmons. You’re nitpicking my friend.

[Greg Doudna]

3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Tatum does not say point blank, only that he stood over him... the barrel would be at leas 3-5 feet from Tippit so I see no conflict.  And who goes over to someone they have shot already in the head to shot again in his stomach?  That makes sense to you?

No you are misunderstanding me. The gunman never went around the back of the car to shoot at Tippit on Tippits side of the car. That was somebody else Tatum saw but it wasn’t the gunman. Tatum thought it was but he was mistaken. See a comment I wrote on Bill Brown’s “light jacket” thread I wrote earlier this morning on just this. 

[Greg Doudna]

13 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 

This comes from Armstrong's notebooks compiled over 10 years of visiting the National Archives.  He and Malcolm worked with Carol Hewitt to sus out the vast amounts of data they compiled.  This being about Igor (not Ivan, my mistake)

Rather than take his (Igor) wife Martha with him, he ran away with a teenage girl named Anne Dulin and committed bigamy by marrying Anne in South Carolina. This elopement did not please Anne's stepfather, Stan Cukowski from Village Green, PA, who reported the matter to juvenile authorities and who in the course of his complaint mentioned that Vaganov claimed to have urgent business in Dallas and was traveling in a red Ford Thunderbird with a 2-way radio, a .38 pistol, and a rifle. 

Benavides describes a red ford falcon he sees at the Tippit scene and the FBI picks up Vaganov almost as quickly as the DPD snags Oswald.

See the final paragraph.  Not at the Tippit scene but parked in front of Ruby's...  more and more interesting, no?

Mr. BENAVIDES - No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.
I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and he pulled over.

David, the red car Benavides saw was Tatum’s red car, not Vaganov.

[David Josephs]

Whatever you say Greg.

Thanks for presenting such well sourced and thought out commentary.

Amazing how you were able to deduce such a convincing conclusion.
Your ability to know what was inside the heads of these people is uncanny.

Excuse me if I move on to other things as I have presented all that I wish to on this subject and will let the readers of the thread arrive at their own conclusions.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Query- does anyone know if any there was an attempt to lift fingerprints from the passenger side of Tippits car since the killler allegedly placed his hands on the car when he spoke to the Tippit? 

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Query- does anyone know if any there was an attempt to lift fingerprints from the passenger side of Tippits car since the killler allegedly placed his hands on the car when he spoke to the Tippit? 

Here you go Larry

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/UFJ3bgrkMxI/m/MoFOGnFGNuAJ 

 

At Captain Westbrook's direction Sargeant Pete Barnes retrieved a
fingerprint kit and began dusting the top side of the passenger door
on Tippit's patrol car for fingerprints (where Helen Markham and Jimmy
Burt saw Tippit's assailant place his hands.)

Barnes told the Commission, "I was told that the suspect (who) shot
Tippit had come up to the right side of the car, and there was a
possibility that he might have placed his hands on there." After
Barnes dusted the top of the car door and right front fender Detective
Paul Bentley, Sergeant Bud Owens, and Captain George M. Doughty of the
Identification Bureau inspected the area and can be seen on Reiland's
WFAA-TV film.

Barnes removed "smudged fingerprints" from the right passenger window
and "fairly good prints" from the right fender of Tippit's patrol
car. Both sets of fingerprints were turned over to the identification
bureau and now located at the Dallas Municipal Archives and Records
Center in Dallas. Neither set of fingerprints was examined by the
Warren Commission to see if they matched Oswald prints taken at DPD
headquarters.

Sergeant Barnes told the Commission, "There were several smear
prints. None of value." But Detective Paul Bentley told the HSCA in
1978, "He (Doughty) lifted good prints from the exterior section of
that door immediately below that rolled-down window." (The "smudged"
prints taken by Barnes were shown to the Commission, while the good
set of prints by Doughty was not.)

(Researcher Dale Myers sought to answer the question of whether or not
the fingerprints found by Sergeant Barnes belonged to Oswald
(Harvey). He obtained crime lab photos of the prints found by Barnes
on Tippit's car and Oswald's fingerprint card taken when he was
arrested. Myers then asked the senior crime scene technician for
Wayne County, Michigan, Herbert Lutz, to compare the two set of
prints.)

(Myers wrote in his book "With Malice" that Lutz reported the furrows
of the fingerprints taken from Tippit's car were wide, while Oswald's
fingerprint furrows were much narrower. In addition, the number of
ridges and the location of the bifurcations in the patterns were
different. Lutz concluded the fingerprints taken by the Dallas Police
from Tippit's patrol car were not those of Lee HARVEY Oswald. These
fingerprint cards were never entered into evidence in the 26 Volumes.)