Walker Bullet Article in KennedysandKing

[Benjamin Cole]

23 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Sullivan was aware of those things at 3:10 AM on 12/4/63? You're not being realistic.

By Dec. 4 Sullivan was aware the DPD had officially stated it had found a steel-jacketed bullet at the Walker residence April 10 1963, but the FBI lab had ID'ed (easily and immediately) CE573 as a copper-jacketed bullet. 

It is fair to assume Sullivan found this arrangement of facts to be disconcerting. 

 

 

 

[Mark Ulrik]

28 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

By Dec. 4 Sullivan was aware the DPD had officially stated it had found a steel-jacketed bullet at the Walker residence April 10 1963, but the FBI lab had ID'ed (easily and immediately) CE573 as a copper-jacketed bullet. 

It is fair to assume Sullivan found this arrangement of facts to be disconcerting.

Seems we're back to reading minds. Nothing in the memo suggests awareness of police reports or lab results concerning the bullet.

[Mark Ulrik]

On 5/27/2023 at 2:45 PM, Mark Ulrik said:

I was the one who originally posted the newspaper clipping that you keep misinterpreting.

No protest, Ben? Perhaps you've realized in the meantime that the FBI sent Curry a lab report dated 11/23 describing the JFK bullet specimens as copper-jacketed. It would make zero sense for him to – several days later – be waiting for "confirmation" that the bullets were steel-jacketed! Let's revisit the 11/30 AP article:

Quote

Police Chief Jesse Curry said soon after the [JFK] shooting that in his opinion the bullets were steel-jacketed, but he says this was not confirmed to him.

Curry must have quickly surmised that the bullets were (jacketed) rifle bullets but happened to use the misnomer "steel-jacketed" when talking to reporters. It could also be a misquote. The header (Bullet Type Used on JFK Kept Secret) indicates that the AP reporter was unaware of the lab report.

[Benjamin Cole]

39 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

No protest, Ben? Perhaps you've realized in the meantime that the FBI sent Curry a lab report dated 11/23 describing the JFK bullet specimens as copper-jacketed. It would make zero sense for him to – several days later – be waiting for "confirmation" that the bullets were steel-jacketed! Let's revisit the 11/30 AP article:

Curry must have quickly surmised that the bullets were (jacketed) rifle bullets but happened to use the misnomer "steel-jacketed" when talking to reporters. It could also be a misquote. The header (Bullet Type Used on JFK Kept Secret) indicates that the AP reporter was unaware of the lab report.

I have resigned...but in protest. I am presently drowning myself in mai tais. But you go ahead. 

1. Curry told the Associated Press he thought JFK was shot with steel-jacketed bullets. You assume Curry, a police chief, conflated steel and copper-jacketed bullets, as did four patrolman and detectives for the DPD. OK, gong-show all around. 

Even though steel-jacketed bullets were a rarity, and the industry standard was copper-jacketed and had been for decades. 

2. I did not misinterpret the AP article. 

3. Curry did receive an 11/23 memo from the FBI. It identified Q1, a bullet found in Parkland Hospital, as a copper-jacketed 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher Carcano bullet (actually, a Western Cartridge bullet, since M-C did not make ammo, but let that go).

At this late date, we do not know if Curry on 11/23 through 11/29, assumed the Parkland Hospital slug was not connected to the JFKA, or had come from a non-LHO gunman. After all, how often are nearly pristine murder bullets found in the hospital? 

Maybe Curry had his mind made up LHO had conducted the Walker shooting with a steel-jacketed bullet, and so was waiting for more lab reports to confirm that. Perhaps he thought fragments removed from JFK's head would be steel-jacketed. 

The fragments the FBI reported on, in the 11/23 memo, were from the presidential limo. 

Curry may have thought  copper-jacketed bullet fragments in the limo were from another gun---remember Curry's first command after the JFKA (he was in a close vehicle in the parade) was to order his cops up towards the railroad yards and grassy knoll.

He may have suspected there were two gunman on 11/22, LHO with his steel-jacketed bullets and another gunsel with copper-jackets. 

Unfortunately, Curry is long gone and we cannot ask him. 

Order up a fresh pitcher of mai tais. 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Mark Ulrik]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

2. I did not misinterpret the AP article. 

You're a funny guy. I think I'll stop commenting and wait for Steve's review. Go easy on the Mai Tais.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

You're a funny guy. I think I'll stop commenting and wait for Steve's review. Go easy on the Mai Tais.

I hope SR does not say all rifle bullets were called "steel jacketed." Then I will need a dozen mai tais.  I  might down a dozen mai tais anyway. 

[Benjamin Cole]

I hereby proclaim that all revolver bullets are steel-jacketed. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

11 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Seems we're back to reading minds. Nothing in the memo suggests awareness of police reports or lab results concerning the bullet.

The FBI had received the Walker package from the DPD on Dec. 3. Even then, the FBI and teletypes and telephones.  

[Mark Ulrik]

33 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The FBI had received the Walker package from the DPD on Dec. 3. Even then, the FBI and teletypes and telephones.  

What was in that "package"? Are you saying that the DPD made copies of the case file (or at least some of the paperwork) and sent it along with the bullet? That doesn't sound quite right. Wouldn't the #1 priority by far be to simply have the bullet examined?

[Tom Gram]

6 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

What was in that "package"? Are you saying that the DPD made copies of the case file (or at least some of the paperwork) and sent it along with the bullet? That doesn't sound quite right. Wouldn't the #1 priority by far be to simply have the bullet examined?

I think it was just the bullet. Day and maybe Tucker turned over a bunch of the original DPD investigative reports in late May/early June ‘64, but I’m not sure if the same reports were turned over to the FBI any sooner.  

It would be interesting to find out exactly what time the bullet arrived in the FBI Lab. Is there anything like that doc for CE399 floating around? I haven’t seen one but also haven’t really looked. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Benjamin Cole]

53 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I think it was just the bullet. Day and maybe Tucker turned over a bunch of the original DPD investigative reports in late May/early June ‘64, but I’m not sure if the same reports were turned over to the FBI any sooner.  

It would be interesting to find out exactly what time the bullet arrived in the FBI Lab. Is there anything like that doc for CE399 floating around? I haven’t seen one but also haven’t really looked. 

Tom--

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2001.pdf

This indicates one Walker package, including the entire Walker shooting papers, was sent to the FBI from DPD on Jan. 3, 1964. 

But, as we know from contemporary newsreels, by Nov. 23 even reporters were asking Chief Curry if LHO was connected to the Walker shooting, and we know the DPD was contemplating sending Walker materials to the FBI by Nov. 27. Anybody familiar with those materials would know a steel-jacketed bullet was found at the Walker home, according to official same-day reports (by DPD officers who held the true Walker bullet in their hands, and marked it with initials). 

Of course, by April 12, 1963 (well before the JFKA) the New York Times and Associated Press were reporting a 30.06 slug had been found in the Walker residence, based DPD Detective Van Cleave's word. 

A reasonable deduction is FBI'er Sullivan had justifiable concerns about the true Walker bullet. 

Unfortunately, there are no records of informal telephone conversations---the usual manner people have for telling each other "the real deal." 

 

 

 

[Mark Ulrik]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

This indicates one Walker package, including the entire Walker shooting papers, was sent to the FBI from DPD on Jan. 3, 1964. 

Seems we're going beyond simple mind-reading and into crystal ball territory. What possible impact could this have had on Sullivan's thinking in the early morning hours of 12/4/63?

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

... and we know the DPD was contemplating sending Walker materials to the FBI by Nov. 27.

I don't think I knew that. Could you elaborate?

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

A reasonable deduction is FBI'er Sullivan had justifiable concerns about the true Walker bullet.

Too many leaps of faith.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Seems we're going beyond simple mind-reading and into crystal ball territory. What possible impact could this have had on Sullivan's thinking in the early morning hours of 12/4/63?

I don't think I knew that. Could you elaborate?

Too many leaps of faith.

Obviously, Sullivan did not see the entire Walker package that was sent on 1/4/64. I made that comment to Tom Gram. 

MU--

I don't want to get into a pissing contest.

I would prefer a mai tai drinking contest, and would that we were geographically situated so that such a contest could be undertaken. 

But seriously....you have suggested I speculate or make leaps of faith.

Then...when four different DPD patrolman and detectives author and sign two different same-day April 10 reports that the Walker bullet was "steel jacketed"...you say they were all mistaken. Or all four used a nomenclature unknown in the annals of police work. That police, investigating the murder attempt of high-profile public figure, often refer to copper-jacketed bullets as steel jacketed, if the bullet were shot from a rifle. 

That CE573 may be the most obviously copper-jacketed bullet ever seen...means nothing. 

That when the word "Day" is not seen on CE573, even after a microscopic examination...that means nothing. 

There are no DPD photographs of the true Walker bullet, no DPD lab reports describing it as copper-jacketed. 

Detective Ira Van Cleave, who held the true Walker Bullet in his hand and inscribed it, told the AP and NYT that the bullet was a 30.06 calibre slug. 

Really. 

It is fine we have different points of view.

But can you take stock of the situation and speak/write accordingly? 

Try to respectful of a very reasonable examination of the Walker Bullet.

If you have another point of view, that is fine. 

Let us see a fair and respectful presentation of why CE573 is truly the same slug found in the Walker home on April 10 1963 (resting in-between bundles of paper). 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Seems we're going beyond simple mind-reading and into crystal ball territory. What possible impact could this have had on Sullivan's thinking in the early morning hours of 12/4/63?

I don't think I knew that. Could you elaborate?

Too many leaps of faith.

According to Vincent Drain, the FBI first received the DPD Walker file from Capt. O.A. Jones on 12/6/63: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=454

Drain’s summary of the file does not mention the DPD descriptions of the bullet. I’m not sure how Drain’s reports were disseminated, or how he was assigned to investigate this angle in the first place. That shouldn’t be too hard to find though. 

Drain’s little mini investigation makes the May-June ‘64 effort look even worse, but obviously this didn’t have anything to do with the Sullivan call. 

The addendum to the Loeffler memo says that the Dallas FBI already had some newspaper clippings of the Walker shooting, and there’s a quote from I think Don Moore that the DPD was contemplating turning over the bullet prior to 12/2. 

The WC had concerns about the bullet, so it’s not exactly a stretch to think that the FBI did too. I think the record is clear that the FBI was well aware of the potential problems, but if we really want to find out what was up with Sullivan on Dec 4th, the first step is to find out exactly what time the bullet arrived in the FBI Lab, and how it was delivered. We also need to find the “detailed teletype” that was prepared for Sullivan on the newspaper morgue review. 

Another possibility is Bardwell Odum. Odum picked up the bullet from Day on the 2nd but didn’t write up his 302 report on the “Day” and a cross business until the 5th. There is zero percent chance that Odum just kept his notes to himself that whole time, so it would be interesting to find out who he talked to - though I doubt that’d be possible. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

According to Vincent Drain, the FBI first received the DPD Walker file from Capt. O.A. Jones on 12/6/63: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=454

Drain’s summary of the file does not mention the DPD descriptions of the bullet. I’m not sure how Drain’s reports were disseminated, or how he was assigned to investigate this angle in the first place. That shouldn’t be too hard to find though. 

Drain’s little mini investigation makes the May-June ‘64 effort look even worse, but obviously this didn’t have anything to do with the Sullivan call. 

The addendum to the Loeffler memo says that the Dallas FBI already had some newspaper clippings of the Walker shooting, and there’s a quote from I think Don Moore that the DPD was contemplating turning over the bullet prior to 12/2. 

The WC had concerns about the bullet, so it’s not exactly a stretch to think that the FBI did too. I think the record is clear that the FBI was well aware of the potential problems, but if we really want to find out what was up with Sullivan on Dec 4th, the first step is to find out exactly what time the bullet arrived in the FBI Lab, and how it was delivered. We also need to find the “detailed teletype” that was prepared for Sullivan on the newspaper morgue review. 

Another possibility is Bardwell Odum. Odum picked up the bullet from Day on the 2nd but didn’t write up his 302 report on the “Day” and a cross business until the 5th. There is zero percent chance that Odum just kept his notes to himself that whole time, so it would be interesting to find out who he talked to - though I doubt that’d be possible. 

Tom--

FBI lab guy in DC Frazier examined CE573 on Dec. 3 or Dec. 4, and immediately described it as a copper-jacketed lead slug. See this memo: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10040#relPageId=12

This memo makes a reference to 12/2/63, so it may be Frazier had CE573 on Dec 2, 1963 and wrote the memo, and then updated the memo on Dec. 4. There is a handwritten date of 12/2, and a typed 12/2 whcih is crossed out and made into a 12/4. 

Again, the written record is vital, but we do not know what was said over the telephone, or in written records hat have disappeared. 

A reasonable deduction is that Sullivan was concerned that true Walker bullet was steel-jacketed, but CE573 was copper-jacketed. Usually, people do not send out urgent memos at 3:10 am, demanding action at daybreak, unless they have urgent concerns.