Walker Bullet Article in KennedysandKing

[James DiEugenio]

What Tom and ben have done is show for about the tenth or twentieth time the problems in the JFK case with what is called Chain of possession.

In Stone's film, we had Brian Edwards and Henry Lee talk about it.

IMO, Lee's 20 second monologue is worth the film.

 

Well now these two guys are showing the same problem in the Walker case.

[Bob Ness]

9 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

It was the wrong rifle.

I should have used the sarcasm font. I don't understand how anyone could mistake a .30 caliber carbine with a bundle of curtain rods. If someone else put it there doesn't that establish a conspiracy?

Edited May 25, 2023 by Bob Ness

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, this is such an important issue because if there was a trial and the DPD tried to get the Walker bullet into the case and if Oswald had a good defense lawyer, there would be a pre trial evidentiary hearing on it.  And all these issues would be given wide latitude to be expressed.

In his bloated book, Bugliosi just shrugged this all off in his usual arrogant manner by saying he would have been able to get all these debated items into the case.  

LOL, ROTF

yeah sure VInce.

 

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, this is such an important issue because if there was a trial and the DPD tried to get the Walker bullet into the case and if Oswald had a good defense lawyer, there would be a pre trial evidentiary hearing on it.  And all these issues would be given wide latitude to be expressed.

In his bloated book, Bugliosi just shrugged this all off in his usual arrogant manner by saying he would have been able to get all these debated items into the case.  

LOL, ROTF

yeah sure VInce.

 

Rankin’s 5/20/64 letter to the FBI on tracing evidence was designed to create the illusion of due diligence. In a trial of Oswald, any item of physical evidence could have been admitted if a witness could testify to its “uniqueness” under oath - like an officer identifying their initials on a bullet. Rankin’s order to the FBI to not establish a chain of custody past the first person who could provide a positive ID was designed to simulate this process. However, not a single witness was placed under oath, so all the IDs obtained by the FBI were legally worthless. 

On the exact same day, 5/20/64, Rankin specifically and separately ordered to the FBI to find out:

”who had possession of that bullet from the time it was recovered from General Walker’s home until it came into the possession of this Commission” 

In other words, Rankin simultaneously ordered the FBI to establish a full chain of custody without establishing an actual chain of custody. The FBI’s response, CE1953, reflects that they failed to establish anything: 

“The following discrepancies as determined by this investigation should be noted: 

1. The report of officers D.P. Tucker and B.G  Norvell states “officer B.G. Norvell found the bullet…” and it “was given to Det G.B. Brown, Crime Laboratory Division”. On May 28, 1964, Detective Don E. McElroy advised he found the bullet and turned it over to Officer Brown. On the same date, Officer Brown stated he obtained the bullet from Officer Norvell. Officer Tucker, on June 2, 1964, and former Officer Norvell, on June 3, 1964, both stated that Norvell found the bullet and he, in turn, gave it to McElroy, who said he would take it or give it to the Dallas Police Department Crime Laboratory. “

Incredibly, no effort was made to resolve these discrepancies - and on June 12th, Bardwell Odum showed the bullet to Norvell, who delivered the positive ID. That was the end of it. Rankin’s original letter stated that the goal of the bogus chain of custody exercise was to determine: 

“…where and by whom these items were found following the assassination” 

So we have two direct, exceedingly simple requests from the WC to establish the provenance of CE573, and the FBI failed miserably on both. ROTF indeed. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Btw, this 1957 news item doesn't prove anything about anything, but it reminded me of the Walker case.

Well, as you say...

As I pointed out in the KandK article, there were steel-jacketed 30.06 bullets on civilian markets after WWII. They were manufactured during WWII under the duress of wartime copper shortages, and then were sold as surplus. 

The steel-jacketed bullets were cheap, but never caught on either in Western militaries or with civilians due to performance issues, possible damage to rifle barrels, and rusting. Stainless steel was far too costly to use, and impractical for other reasons, but the necessarily softer types of steel rusted quickly. 

Such steel-jacketed bullets remained relatively rare, a marginal market until recent years. (Of late, Eastern Europe and other military surplus has shown up on US markets, that is steel-jacketed bullets with various coatings to reduce barrel-wear and inhibit rust). 

Of course, there is nothing at all about CE573 to suggest anyone ever could conflate that slug with a steel-jacketed bullet, especially by police collecting evidence at the scene of an attempted murder of a high-profile public figure.

What about CE573 looks "steel jacketed" to you? 

People have different opinions and outlooks, I accept that. 

What is it about CE573 that tells you it must be the true Walker Bullet? 

 

 

[Tom Gram]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well, as you say...

As I pointed out in the KandK article, there were steel-jacketed 30.06 bullets on civilian markets after WWII. They were manufactured during WWII under the duress of wartime copper shortages, and then were sold as surplus. 

The steel-jacketed bullets were cheap, but never caught on either in Western militaries or with civilians due to performance issues, possible damage to rifle barrels, and rusting. Stainless steel was far too costly to use, and impractical for other reasons, but the necessarily softer types of steel rusted quickly. 

Such steel-jacketed bullets remained relatively rare, a marginal market until recent years. (Of late, Eastern Europe and other military surplus has shown up on US markets, that is steel-jacketed bullets with various coatings to reduce barrel-wear and inhibit rust). 

Of course, there is nothing at all about CE573 to suggest anyone ever could conflate that slug with a steel-jacketed bullet, especially by police collecting evidence at the scene of an attempted murder of a high-profile public figure.

What about CE573 looks "steel jacketed" to you? 

People have different opinions and outlooks, I accept that. 

What is it about CE573 that tells you it must be the true Walker Bullet? 

 

 

One scenario I could maybe buy is if the bullet was misidentified by the inexperienced cop Norvell, and either no one corrected him or the other three cops forgot by the time they wrote their reports, or were going off notes on what Norvell said, etc. 

However, if something like that actually happened, the FBI could have figured it out in 10 seconds. The fact that not one of these guys was asked about the steel jacket description on the record suggests that the FBI either didn’t like the answers they received, or just didn’t want to know. 

We should find all the records on the Walker case in the FBI Dallas Field Office files that were not cc’d to HQ and request reproductions from NARA. I bet there are internal field office memos discussing the 5/20/64 Rankin letters with agent assignments, interview lists, etc., and other interesting stuff. 

Also, you were correct to point out that the redactions on that Sullivan memo are a bit strange, even in the MFF copy. Like why the hell would the FBI redact the name of a Field Office? I bet it’s the WFO - but I’m sure the doc is released in full now so we just need to find a RIF number. It might even be available online somewhere. It looks to me like Sullivan called a regular Special Agent directly - and the FBI at one point wanted to conceal the name of Sullivan’s back channel guy in the Dallas Field Office: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145516#relPageId=27

 

[Mark Ulrik]

36 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

One scenario I could maybe buy is if the bullet was misidentified by the inexperienced cop Norvell, and either no one corrected him or the other three cops forgot by the time they wrote their reports, or were going off notes on what Norvell said, etc. 

However, if something like that actually happened, the FBI could have figured it out in 10 seconds. The fact that not one of these guys was asked about the steel jacket description on the record suggests that the FBI either didn’t like the answers they received, or just didn’t want to know. 

We should find all the records on the Walker case in the FBI Dallas Field Office files that were not cc’d to HQ and request reproductions from NARA. I bet there are internal field office memos discussing the 5/20/64 Rankin letters with agent assignments, interview lists, etc., and other interesting stuff. 

Also, you were correct to point out that the redactions on that Sullivan memo are a bit strange, even in the MFF copy. Like why the hell would the FBI redact the name of a Field Office? I bet it’s the WFO - but I’m sure the doc is released in full now so we just need to find a RIF number. It might even be available online somewhere. It looks to me like Sullivan called a regular Special Agent directly - and the FBI at one point wanted to conceal the name of Sullivan’s back channel guy in the Dallas Field Office: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145516#relPageId=27

I found it without redactions in Ernie Lazar's FOIA Collection:
12/4/63 FBI memo from SA LOEFFLER to DALLAS SAC

It seems to a relatively unbiased observer like me that Sullivan just wanted the FBI to be on top of the developing Walker situation. How can you guys read into the memo that Sullivan had "urgent concerns about the authenticity of the Walker Bullet" and thought "the true Walker Bullet might actually be steel jacketed?" I can agree with some of the points you're making, but this attempt (in your K&K article) to read Sullivan's mind is stretching it a bit.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Mark Ulrik

[Tom Gram]

14 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I found it without redactions in Ernie Lazar's FOIA Collection:
12/4/63 FBI memo from SA LOEFFLER to DALLAS SAC

It seems to a relatively unbiased observer like me that Sullivan just wanted the FBI to be on top of the developing Walker situation. How can you guys read into the memo that Sullivan had "urgent concerns about the authenticity of the Walker Bullet" and thought "the true Walker Bullet might actually be steel jacketed?" I can agree with some of the points you're making, but this attempt (in your article) to read Sullivan's mind is frankly ridiculous.

Thanks Mark. Do you know anything about this Loeffler guy? 

I totally agree that we can’t read Sullivan’s mind, but there are a couple curious details here, mainly Sullivan’s supposed usage of the phrase “alleged bullet” and the order for an immediate discreet review of newspaper morgues. 

The timing is also interesting - 3am on Dec. 4th must be very close to the time the bullet arrived in Washington, since the completed lab report was released that same day. 

What’s more interesting, in my opinion, is that Ira Van Cleave was specifically cited as a source in one of those newspaper articles for the bullet being a .30-06. Van Cleave was subsequently the only responding officer never interviewed on the record as part of the May-June ‘64 FBI reinvestigation, which is, as discussed in my previous comments in this thread, frankly ridiculous. 

So I agree that there’s not enough evidence here to state with certainty that Sullivan had any specific urgent concerns about the bullet, but I don’t think it’s as much of a stretch as you’re making it out to be. 

I’ve looked around a bit for the “detailed teletype” response to Sullivan on the newspaper morgues, but haven’t been able to find it. I haven’t had much time to dig through documents lately though, so maybe you’ll have better luck - if you’re interested. 

[Mark Ulrik]

Sorry, Tom. I was curious enough to do a little searching last night, but didn't really find anything. Perhaps I should think about renewing my MFF subscription.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Mark Ulrik   well at least you have some fraction of your mind open to consider a factoid that does not comport with your narrative. 

Multiple DPD officers wrote that they observed the bullet so this cannot be written off as the failure of a lone inexperienced officer. 

You are right that the FBI could have figured this out but Hoover had determined LHO was their man and it would have been a fatal career choice for any FBI agent to conclude anything to the contrary, Hoover was relunctantly forced to re-examine the Walker shooting at the request of Raikin. 

and regarding Sullivan, you are  once again reviewing what you consider ambiguous evidence through the light of your biased lens to reach a decison that supports your pre-ordanied narrative. The WC asked the FBI to conduct another investigation into the Walker incident. The Sullivan expressed urgency about the bullet. What concerns were there about the bullet? -its caliber, the inability to match it to the rifle, and the "steel-jacketed" issue. You cannot dismiss these concerns as ridiculous.  indeed, it is  ridicuous and absurd to dismiss these concerns.   

[Mark Ulrik]

56 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Mark Ulrik   well at least you have some fraction of your mind open to consider a factoid that does not comport with your narrative. 

Multiple DPD officers wrote that they observed the bullet so this cannot be written off as the failure of a lone inexperienced officer. 

You are right that the FBI could have figured this out but Hoover had determined LHO was their man and it would have been a fatal career choice for any FBI agent to conclude anything to the contrary, Hoover was relunctantly forced to re-examine the Walker shooting at the request of Raikin. 

and regarding Sullivan, you are  once again reviewing what you consider ambiguous evidence through the light of your biased lens to reach a decison that supports your pre-ordanied narrative. The WC asked the FBI to conduct another investigation into the Walker incident. The Sullivan expressed urgency about the bullet. What concerns were there about the bullet? -its caliber, the inability to match it to the rifle, and the "steel-jacketed" issue. You cannot dismiss these concerns as ridiculous.  indeed, it is  ridicuous and absurd to dismiss these concerns. 

Lawrence, were you commenting on Tom Gram's post, mine, or both? In any case, it's gratifying to know that you think of him/me/us as somewhat open-minded.

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I found it without redactions in Ernie Lazar's FOIA Collection:
12/4/63 FBI memo from SA LOEFFLER to DALLAS SAC

It seems to a relatively unbiased observer like me that Sullivan just wanted the FBI to be on top of the developing Walker situation. How can you guys read into the memo that Sullivan had "urgent concerns about the authenticity of the Walker Bullet" and thought "the true Walker Bullet might actually be steel jacketed?" I can agree with some of the points you're making, but this attempt (in your K&K article) to read Sullivan's mind is stretching it a bit.

MU--

Fair enough--but really, Sullivan calling a bullet officially submitted by the DPD the "alleged" Walker bullet?

Seems a little strong to me. I cannot think of another FBI memo that treated similar officially submitted evidence thusly. 

Sullivan likely read or heard of a report that the Walker Bullet was steel-jacketed (as you know, we do not have records of ordinary phone calls. I worked in a congressional agency for a while.  We would often send a memo, and then follow up with a phone call in which we said what we really meant or wanted). 

So Sullivan had doubts about the Walker Bullet. Maybe he talked to someone on the phone, heard some scuttlebutt. 

We know Sullivan called the slug officially submitted by the DP the "alleged bullet" and wanted newspaper morgues checked ASAP (really ASAP, as in the crack of dawn) for info. 

That is interesting. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Sorry, Tom. I was curious enough to do a little searching last night, but didn't really find anything. Perhaps I should think about renewing my MFF subscription.

Chief Curry may have asked, in memo form of the FBI, if the JFKA bullets were steel-jacketed. 

That is something to look for, as long as you have your sub. 

[Benjamin Cole]

15 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

One scenario I could maybe buy is if the bullet was misidentified by the inexperienced cop Norvell, and either no one corrected him or the other three cops forgot by the time they wrote their reports, or were going off notes on what Norvell said, etc. 

However, if something like that actually happened, the FBI could have figured it out in 10 seconds. The fact that not one of these guys was asked about the steel jacket description on the record suggests that the FBI either didn’t like the answers they received, or just didn’t want to know. 

We should find all the records on the Walker case in the FBI Dallas Field Office files that were not cc’d to HQ and request reproductions from NARA. I bet there are internal field office memos discussing the 5/20/64 Rankin letters with agent assignments, interview lists, etc., and other interesting stuff. 

Also, you were correct to point out that the redactions on that Sullivan memo are a bit strange, even in the MFF copy. Like why the hell would the FBI redact the name of a Field Office? I bet it’s the WFO - but I’m sure the doc is released in full now so we just need to find a RIF number. It might even be available online somewhere. It looks to me like Sullivan called a regular Special Agent directly - and the FBI at one point wanted to conceal the name of Sullivan’s back channel guy in the Dallas Field Office: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145516#relPageId=27

 

Tom--

You are bending over backwards to consider all views and scenarios, and that is good research. 

But---

"One scenario I could maybe buy is if the bullet was misidentified by the inexperienced cop Norvell, and either no one corrected him or the other three cops forgot by the time they wrote their reports, or were going off notes on what Norvell said, etc."---TG

Yes, except that detectives McElroy and Van Cleave also inscribed their marks (initials) onto the true Walker Bullet with a stylus or awl. That means the pair (separately) held the bullet in their hand, and carved their initials(s) into it (or held the bullet down on a surface between fingers, and then inscribed). 

Then, Van Cleave and McElroy authored and signed a separate supplementary offense report (no input from Tucker and Norvell) and again described the true Walker Bullet as "steel jacketed." This was a bullet they had held in their hands that evening and inscribed with an awl, and was evidence at the scene of attempted murder of a high-profile public figure. 

If McElroy and Van Cleave had never handled the true Walker Bullet, that might open up doors to extraordinarily sloppy mistakes. 

But the pair did handle and inscribe the true Walker Bullet. 

[Mark Ulrik]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

MU--

Fair enough--but really, Sullivan calling a bullet officially submitted by the DPD the "alleged" Walker bullet?

Seems a little strong to me. I cannot think of another FBI memo that treated similar officially submitted evidence thusly. 

Sullivan likely read or heard of a report that the Walker Bullet was steel-jacketed (as you know, we do not have records of ordinary phone calls. I worked in a congressional agency for a while.  We would often send a memo, and then follow up with a phone call in which we said what we really meant or wanted). 

So Sullivan had doubts about the Walker Bullet. Maybe he talked to someone on the phone, heard some scuttlebutt. 

We know Sullivan called the slug officially submitted by the DP the "alleged bullet" and wanted newspaper morgues checked ASAP (really ASAP, as in the crack of dawn) for info. 

That is interesting. 

You're reading an awful lot into "alleged" without even knowing if Sullivan used that word. We only have SA Loeffler's summary of the call:

Quote

Assistant Director W. C. SULLIVAN called at 3:10 AM and instructed he receive a return telephone call and be filled in on the details relating to the alleged bullet being shot into the home of General EDWIN A. WALKER.

Now, I might personally have structured the sentence a little differently ("... the bullet alleged to ..."), but it sounds like pretty neutral, guarded language to me. The remainder of the memo reflects that they were scrambling for detailed information on the Walker shooting since there was nothing in their Dallas files. It's pure speculation on your part that they had any doubts about the legitimacy of the bullet.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Mark Ulrik