Walker Bullet Article in KennedysandKing

[Mark Ulrik]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

There are many many reasons why people who work with ammo draw clear distinctions between copper-jacketed bullets and steel-jacketed bullets.

The arrest mentioned in the article would've made more sense (at least to me) if "steel jacket" were replaced with "full metal jacket," so I still suspect it was a misnomer.

From the 2010 codes and statutes for the state of Maryland:

Quote

§ 10-416. Deer hunting - Prohibited methods.

(a)  Use of automatic firearms and certain bullets.-  

(1) A person may not hunt deer in the State with any automatic firearm. In this subsection, an automatic firearm means a firearm designed to fire, or which is mechanically altered to fire, 2 or more shots with 1 continuous pressure on the trigger. 

(2) A person may not use full metal-jacketed, incendiary, or tracer bullets in hunting deer in the State. However, the use of metal-jacketed bullets designed to expand on impact is not prohibited. 

(3) A person may not hunt deer with any firearm that uses an ammunition clip holding more than 8 cartridges or bullets. In this paragraph, "ammunition clip" includes a cartridge or bullet holder called a banana clip. 

https://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2010/natural-resources/title-10/subtitle-4/10-416

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, Mark Ulrik said:

The arrest mentioned in the article would've made more sense (at least to me) if "steel jacket" were replaced with "full metal jacket," so I still suspect it was a misnomer.

From the 2010 codes and statutes for the state of Maryland:

https://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2010/natural-resources/title-10/subtitle-4/10-416

I actually saw your cite. But, it is from 2010 and not 1945. 

The code may have changed. 

In the US, full metal jacket bullets are almost always copper jacketed, that is military ammo, to meet Geneva conventions. 

It makes no sense to refer to copper-jacketed bullets as steel-jacketed. No one does that. 

[Benjamin Cole]

And MU, do not go hunting in Wood Buffalo National Park with your 30.06 rifle armed with steel-jacketed bullets! 

Wood Buffalo National Park Game Regulations

Version of section 37 from 2018-11-23 to 2023-05-17:

 

Previous Versionof section  



• 37 (1) No person shall,

  • (a) use a firearm of less than .23 calibre for the purpose of hunting big game;

  • (b) be in possession of ammunition that contains non-expanding or steel jacketed bullets; or

  • (c) use an automatic loading or recoil loading rifle of more than .22 calibre that has a capacity of more than five cartridges in the magazine.

• (2) No person shall, for purposes of hunting or trapping, be in possession of

  • (a) a firearm capable of firing more than one bullet during one pressure of the trigger;

  • (b) a firearm that can be altered to operate as an automatic firearm; or

  • (c) a shotgun that is capable of holding more than three shells in the magazine and chamber combined unless the magazine has been permanently plugged or altered so as to reduce the capacity of the firearm to not more than three shells in the magazine and chamber combined.

• (3) Subject to subsection 56(1), no person shall shoot fur bearing animals with a shotgun except a shotgun loaded with a single ball or bullet.

• SOR/2018-250, s. 11
• https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-78-830/section-37-20181123.html?wbdisable=true

[Lawrence Schnapf]

i find it informative how some twist themselves into pretzels to insist that the reference to steel-jacked bullet must be an error rather than consider the implications of this being factual and placing this into the context of the rest of the evidence for the walker shooting.   

In a trial, the defense would have made a motion to exclude the bullet in evidence. A prosecution-friendly judge would have rejected the motion but instructed the jury to consider the questions about the provenance of the bullet in how much weight to apply to this piece of evidence.

So for a more interesting and productive discussion, I ask those who have been pushing back that the "steel-jacketed bullet" reference is wrong, pretend you are now in a jury and now have to deliberate  the case with the understanding that there are serious questions about the bullet. How does this impact the rest of the government's case that Oswald was the person who took a shot at Walker? is there now reasonable doubt or do you feel the rest of the evidence supports a conviction of attempted murder?   

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Mark Ulrik- the DPD under Fritz was not known for its evidence-based approach to solving crimes. He had a reputation and bragged about using his interrogations for getting confessions.

so again, dont assume the reference to a steel-jacketed bullet is wrong because an arrest was made. Your energy has been focused on refuting the statements of four DPD, and other law enforcement as outlined by @Benjamin Cole and @Tom Gram   How about evaluating the case with the bullet in evidence now in question. do you think the rest of the case supports that LHO was the person who took a potshot at Walker or is the bullet the critical piece of evidence in your opinion?

This would be a more productive discssion. Does this change the dynamics in the case in your opinion. Afterall, the bullet in evidence could not be linked to the assassination rifle in record to the exclusion of any other rifle.   

[Tom Gram]

Ben might have mentioned this already, but here’s a letter from a college student in ‘64 talking about steel jacketed bullets and the JFKA : 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White Materials/White Assassination Clippings Folders/Rifle/Item 17.pdf

It’s not exactly clear, but this kid makes a distinction between “jacketed”, “soft-jacketed”, and “steel-jacketed” bullets, and specifically refers to steel jacketed bullets as armor piercing.

I think it’s fair to say that some people did refer to all FMJ bullets as steel-jacketed, but that doesn’t really help the case for an authentic Walker bullet, at all. It almost makes it worse.

The WC knew the difference, and so did the FBI. The FBI was tasked by Rankin with resolving conflicting reports about the bullet, and noted that the DPD investigative report did “not indicate the caliber or other basic characteristics of the bullet”. Rankin also specifically mentioned the report of McElroy and Van Cleave as a source of conflict. 

In response to Rankin’s request, the FBI did not interview Van Cleave, nor ask anyone besides Norvell for even a basic description of the bullet on the record, and Norvell was not asked about the steel jacket description. 

If the steel-jacket/FMJ thing was such a common mix-up, even with experienced cops, the FBI and WC could have cleared it up in two seconds, but they never asked the question. That’s the core issue here, IMO. 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

My research-albeit not as comprehensive as you and Ben- is that stell-jacketed bullets were often "soft nosed" which would suggest they are not FMJ bullets. It also appears that these were manufactured in a limited number of countries (italy and somewhere else). My guess- which is all it is- is that steel-jacketed" referred to the construction of the cartridge and did not mean it was FMJ but I except for the reference to soft-nosed, i have no other basis to believe that was the case. During the war, I also suspect that copper became much more expensive and less available than steel so it's possible that manufacturers FMJs might have turned to steel. 

Note as an environmenta lawyer, I have worked on lots of abandoned lead and copper mining sites. These operations were very profitable during the world wars but often ceased operating after the wars (leaving behind tailings and exposed mines that result in acid discharges into streams) because lead and copper prices plummetted. Those of you who live int he Tri-State Mining area of Kansas-Missouri-Oklahoma probably are probably- and unfortunately- familar with this problem.   BTW- this is the region where Mickey Mantle came from. end of history lesson.    

[Mark Ulrik]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And MU, do not go hunting in Wood Buffalo National Park with your 30.06 rifle armed with steel-jacketed bullets!

Well, isn't that a bummer. OK, maybe it wasn't as unimaginable as I thought that you actually could get arrested in Maryland in 1945 for hunting deer with steel-jacketed bullets.

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

My research-albeit not as comprehensive as you and Ben- is that stell-jacketed bullets were often "soft nosed" which would suggest they are not FMJ bullets. It also appears that these were manufactured in a limited number of countries (italy and somewhere else). My guess- which is all it is- is that steel-jacketed" referred to the construction of the cartridge and did not mean it was FMJ but I except for the reference to soft-nosed, i have no other basis to believe that was the case. During the war, I also suspect that copper became much more expensive and less available than steel so it's possible that manufacturers FMJs might have turned to steel. 

Note as an environmenta lawyer, I have worked on lots of abandoned lead and copper mining sites. These operations were very profitable during the world wars but often ceased operating after the wars (leaving behind tailings and exposed mines that result in acid discharges into streams) because lead and copper prices plummetted. Those of you who live int he Tri-State Mining area of Kansas-Missouri-Oklahoma probably are probably- and unfortunately- familar with this problem.   BTW- this is the region where Mickey Mantle came from. end of history lesson.    

I think this is true. Pretty sure I posted this earlier in the thread, but the FBI found out on 11/23 that there were 6.5mm soft nosed hunting rounds with a “steel casing” available for the Carcano, plus FMJ brass-jacketed rounds: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62263#relPageId=77

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Tom Gram ye- your link is what led me to research this further.  

Interestingly, the two places that Oswald allegedly ordered his firearms from were being investigated by Senator Tom Dodd's committee that was exploring the problems of mail order weapons. Senator Dodd was interested in this topic b/c his state was the home of the largest domestic gun manufacturers and the mail order business was largely involving cheap, foreign-made weapons that were negatively impacting sales of domestic manufacturers. Some have speculated that LHO ordered the firearms as part of this investigation. I have no idea if this is true.

  

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Ben might have mentioned this already, but here’s a letter from a college student in ‘64 talking about steel jacketed bullets and the JFKA : 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White Materials/White Assassination Clippings Folders/Rifle/Item 17.pdf

It’s not exactly clear, but this kid makes a distinction between “jacketed”, “soft-jacketed”, and “steel-jacketed” bullets, and specifically refers to steel jacketed bullets as armor piercing.

I think it’s fair to say that some people did refer to all FMJ bullets as steel-jacketed, but that doesn’t really help the case for an authentic Walker bullet, at all. It almost makes it worse.

The WC knew the difference, and so did the FBI. The FBI was tasked by Rankin with resolving conflicting reports about the bullet, and noted that the DPD investigative report did “not indicate the caliber or other basic characteristics of the bullet”. Rankin also specifically mentioned the report of McElroy and Van Cleave as a source of conflict. 

In response to Rankin’s request, the FBI did not interview Van Cleave, nor ask anyone besides Norvell for even a basic description of the bullet on the record, and Norvell was not asked about the steel jacket description. 

If the steel-jacket/FMJ thing was such a common mix-up, even with experienced cops, the FBI and WC could have cleared it up in two seconds, but they never asked the question. That’s the core issue here, IMO. 

TG--

All true, but even game wardens knew the difference between steel and copper-jacketed bullets, and even arrested people for using steel-jacketed bullets. 

Among people who deal with ammo---game wardens, police, military, FBI, gun hobbyists---there is no conflating of steel- and copper-jacketed bullets. 

The idea that four different Dallas Police Department officers, two of them detectives, one with 13 years on the force, all would mark and initial a copper-jacketed bullet, and all would officially call it a "steel jacketed" bullet simply defies credulity--and when gathering evidence at the attempted murder of a high-profile public figure?  

Side note: Yes, there are full metal jacket bullets, made for militaries to  comply with Geneva conventions. They are almost always copper, though some steel-jacketed bullets were made during WWII copper shortages. 

There are FMJ steel bullets, 30.06, dumped on the market after WWII by the US military. That is almost certainly what was found in the Walker home in April, 1963---see comments by DPD Detective Ira Van Cleave, who held and marked the bullet. 

Civilian ammo manufacturers usually make jacketed bullets, almost always copper, with soft lead points, for hunters and others. 

No one ever referred to "all rifle bullets as steel-jacketed." That nomenclature never existed. 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:13 AM, Mark Ulrik said:

Well, isn't that a bummer. OK, maybe it wasn't as unimaginable as I thought that you actually could get arrested in Maryland in 1945 for hunting deer with steel-jacketed bullets.

Indeed, the hoose-gow was the terminus for hunting with a steel-jacketed bullet in Maryland in 1945. 

See this: https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn88065202/1946-11-28/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1940&index=14&rows=20&words=bullets+jackets+steel&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext="steel-jacketed+bullet"&y=13&x=19&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2

 

[Mark Ulrik]

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Indeed, the hoose-gow was the terminus for hunting with a steel-jacketed bullet in Maryland in 1945. 

See this: https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn88065202/1946-11-28/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1940&index=14&rows=20&words=bullets+jackets+steel&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext="steel-jacketed+bullet"&y=13&x=19&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2

The emphasis on "steel" is still odd to me. It makes little difference to the deer what kind of metal the jacket is made of. What really makes a difference is whether it's a soft-nosed hunting bullet or a military-style FMJ bullet. Hunting game like deer with FMJ ammo is just a big no-no.

[Mark Ulrik]

On 6/9/2023 at 7:12 PM, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Mark Ulrik- the DPD under Fritz was not known for its evidence-based approach to solving crimes. He had a reputation and bragged about using his interrogations for getting confessions.

so again, dont assume the reference to a steel-jacketed bullet is wrong because an arrest was made. Your energy has been focused on refuting the statements of four DPD, and other law enforcement as outlined by @Benjamin Cole and @Tom Gram   How about evaluating the case with the bullet in evidence now in question. do you think the rest of the case supports that LHO was the person who took a potshot at Walker or is the bullet the critical piece of evidence in your opinion?

This would be a more productive discssion. Does this change the dynamics in the case in your opinion. Afterall, the bullet in evidence could not be linked to the assassination rifle in record to the exclusion of any other rifle.   

Thank you for asking. As we all know, the steel vs. copper controversy has been around for decades, and I don't see how the recent K&K article really changes anything. I agree that the efforts by the WC and FBI to get to the bottom of the steel vs. copper affair were in some respects underwhelming, but the more speculative parts of the article were very unconvincing. But let's wait for Steve's review.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Mark Ulrik are you referrfing to Steve Roe?  Didnt he write a piece last week or am i confusing this with anothe article?

I think the emphasis on "steel" flows from the FBI memo that indicates steel-jacketed bullets were often soft-nosed.

would it be more "humane" to kill with a FMJ to the head than to fire soft-nosed bullets that create so much damage but might not kill the animal.  As you probably suspect, I think killing animals for fun is immoral so I dont understand why its ok to use a bullet that is designed to maime as to opposed a FMJ that can create a "clean" kill.   A bit off topic but would like to understand better this view.