Altgens 6 Photogrammetry

[Gerry Down]

I have been trying to figure out where exactly each car is in the motorcade at Z255 which coincides with the Altgens 6 photo. I had been using Mark Tylers animation for guidance on this but from the below analysis i'm starting to question his placing of the cars at Z255 or maybe Altgens was using an unusual photographic lens that makes it very difficult to use photogrammetry to determine the position of the cars.

In the below analysis on the Altgens 6 photo i have 3 vertical lines. The first line passes through the right front tip of the JFK limo and extends to a point in the middle of the 4th window west of the Elm/Houston corner of the TSBD (as represented by the red circle). The middle vertical line passes through the left front tip of the Queen Mary and extends to the Elm/Houston corner of the TSBD (as represented by the red circle). The third red vertical line passes through the south elm street curb line and extends to the left rear tip of the Vice-Presidential Secret Service follow up car. 

I then tried to plot these 3 lines on a still from Mark Tylers Motorcade 63 animation. Mark Tyler has marked Altgens position in the street as No. 43, however I have moved Altgens position slightly to put him standing on the curb and grass area, rather than out in the street, as i believe this is his true position. This is only a small difference in any case. Then when i plot these same three lines on the Motorcade 63 animation, as i had on the Altgens 6 photo, you can see that that lines 1 and 2 are significantly out, while line 3 is marginally out. It would seem that the JFK limo and Queen Mary should be pushed further back towards the Vice-Presidential car and he Vice-Presidential Secret Service follow up car but if you do then the gap between the first two cars and the second two cars gets way too narrow. In short, i cant seem to make these 4 cars fit on Elm street where Altgens has photographed them in his Altgens 6 photo.

Any help?

Maybe my photogrammetry analysis is incorrect. Even so, i would have thought the middle line should line up as this would be in the center of Altgens line of sight regardless of the type of lens he was using. 

Do you think Mark Tyler has positioned both the JFK limo and the Vice Presidential Secret Service follow up car in their correct positions in his Motorcade 63 animation?

[Chris Bristow]

I agree Altgens was at the curb, but I think he was up to 15 ft Southwest of the location shown in the motorcade 63 graphic. The motorcade 63 position matches the place he is seen in the Z film, but he had about 5 Seconds to walk there after his number 6 photo.

 The best lines of sight to get his location are the Lamppost on Elm that sits on the right side of the middle window on the TSB, and the corner of the Daltex building that runs over the grass and Brehm's arms.

The TSB in the map below has been enlarged 5% because it was slightly off. When using the lamp post to window line of sight that  adjustment makes almost zero difference because the 5% increase is from the center outward. So the the alignment point of the lamp post to the center window only changes by about 4 in.

Drawing a vertical line on the motorcade map aligns Altgens with the east entrance to the east pergola as most Maps do. In the map below, which I believe has the correct lines of sight, he lines up on the other side of that pergola. 

When enlarging  the TSB by 5%, you can align it by the east corner, the West corner or expand it from the center out. I used the center. But if we used the east corner it would move the lines of sight such that Altgens would only be about 8 ft Southwest of his spot on the motorcade map. I think he's a good 15 ft South West but it could be as little as 8 ft.

Either change will sync up better with the positions of the vehicles shown in the motorcade 63 map.

Lens distortion in Altgens 6 is minimal  partially because his camera tilt was almost zero. Vertical lines on the far right and left sides of the photo match very well and show the Distortion is almost nothing.       Altgens 6 does need to be rotated one degree to the right, and that will change the lines of sight slightly.

 The line of the Daltex in the upper right corner of the uncropped version shows no visible pin cushion distortion.

[Gerry Down]

29 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

I agree Altgens was at the curb, but I think he was up to 15 ft Southwest of the location shown in the motorcade 63 graphic. The motorcade 63 position matches the place he is seen in the Z film, but he had about 5 Seconds to walk there after his number 6 photo.

 The best lines of sight to get his location are the Lamppost on Elm that sits on the right side of the middle window on the TSB, and the corner of the Daltex building that runs over the grass and Brehm's arms.

The TSB in the map below has been enlarged 5% because it was slightly off. When using the lamp post to window line of sight that  adjustment makes almost zero difference because the 5% increase is from the center outward. So the the alignment point of the lamp post to the center window only changes by about 4 in.

Drawing a vertical line on the motorcade map aligns Altgens with the east entrance to the east pergola as most Maps do. In the map below, which I believe has the correct lines of sight, he lines up on the other side of that pergola. 

When enlarging  the TSB by 5%, you can align it by the east corner, the West corner or expand it from the center out. I used the center. But if we used the east corner it would move the lines of sight such that Altgens would only be about 8 ft Southwest of his spot on the motorcade map. I think he's a good 15 ft South West but it could be as little as 8 ft.

Either change will sync up better with the positions of the vehicles shown in the motorcade 63 map.

Lens distortion in Altgens 6 is minimal  partially because his camera tilt was almost zero. Vertical lines on the far right and left sides of the photo match very well and show the Distortion is almost nothing.       Altgens 6 does need to be rotated one degree to the right, and that will change the lines of sight slightly.

 The line of the Daltex in the upper right corner of the uncropped version shows no visible pin cushion distortion.

Thanks for that feedback.

Are you suggesting that Altgens was almost down as far as opposite the concrete steps leading up to the grassy knoll when he took Altgens 6 and then, after taking the Altgens 6 photo, walked towards the Kennedy limousine 15 feet to where we see him on the Zapruder film, then stopped just as the limousine passed him, pivoted and then took the Altgens 7 photo as the limousine moved away from him?

That's a very unnatural movement, to move towards the limousine, after taking the Altgens 6 photo. The only thing I could see to explain such an unnatural movement is that the Franzens were close to Altgens back when he took Altgens 6, perhaps the Franzens had moved forward closer towards Altgens in the last few seconds before he took Altgens 6, and this forced Altgens to walk east away from the Franzens so that he could get a clear picture of the limousine as it went away from him towards the underpass.

[Gerry Down]

Altgens first appears at Z339 on the Zapruder film. That is 4.5 seconds after he took his Altgens 6 photo which coincides with Z255. 

So Altgens was either 6 feet out in the street when he took the photo or was standing 15 to 20 feet further west in the grass near the Franzens and after taking his Altgens 6 photo he moved 15 to 20 feet east of the Franzens in 4.5 seconds, towards the limousine, to take another picture at which point this is where he is captured on Z339. 

Altgens told the WC in referring to the time period after he took Altgens 6 but before the fatal head shot:

Mr. ALTGENS - ....The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace and I stepped out in the curb area and made another picture as the Secret Service man stepped upon the rear step of the Presidential car and went to Mrs. Kennedy's aid....

As i understand it, there is some controversy about the phrase "I stepped out". Did Altgens mean he stepped off the grass onto the concrete curb that lines the street, or did he infer he had been standing in the street and stepped out of the street back onto the concrete curb that lines Elm street.

Later in his testimony he says this:

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes; I keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony down here. After the Presidential caravan had proceeded down Elm Street, this was approximately 12:25, then, after the President was shot--the car passed in front of me I stepped into the curb area and made a picture of the Secret Service man going to the assistance of Mrs. Kennedy. I made a picture at that time which shows part of the triple overpass but it does not show the people up on it.

The phrase "I stepped into the curb area" would appear to align more closely with a person that was standing in the street and would step in towards the curb, rather than a person that was standing on the grass who would have to step onto the curb. 

Altgens marked his position on Commission Exhibit 354 with the no. "3" in a circle. He places the "3" on the grass as can be seen in this link: https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_354.pdf

What seals the mystery of Altgens position however is this piece of testimony:

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way...

In other words when Altgens took the Altgens 6 photo, Altgens was out in the street in the way of the motorcycles and so had to get "back upon the curb" to get out of the motorcycles way. 

What further clenches it that Altgens was not 15 to 20 feet further west nearer to the Franzens at the time of the Altgens 6 photo, and then moved a distance as large as 15 to 20 feet in 4.5 seconds, is this piece of testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - In looking at Commission Exhibit No. 203, does it appear to you that 203 could have been taken from position 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 and only be 30 feet away from the Presidential car at that time--I'm not saying it wasn't--I mean, just what does it look like to you? The question I'm driving at, of course, is--I want to know--did you move from the time you took the first picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 203, and the time you saw the President's head hit, did you move down the street at all?
...
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way, but if you will look at this picture----

In other words, Altgens made no big movements during the assassination sequence. The only movement he made was to get back onto the curb and out of the way of the motorcade. Additionally, I don't think Altgens could be be 15 to 20 feet in the direction of the Franzens because of this exchange at Altgens WC testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away?
Mr. ALTGENS - But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 15 feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet.

In other words, if Altgens was down near the Franzens, the Altgens 6 photo would have been out of focus. And the Altgens 6 photo is generally in good focus.

In conclusion, it would appear that Altgens was about 6 feet out into the street when he took the Altgens 6 photo. Mark Tyler in his "Motorcade 63" animation has him out in the street but i feel he may even need to be out more to make the Altgens 6 photo work photogrammetrically. 

[Chris Bristow]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

Altgens first appears at Z339 on the Zapruder film. That is 4.5 seconds after he took his Altgens 6 photo which coincides with Z255. 

So Altgens was either 6 feet out in the street when he took the photo or was standing 15 to 20 feet further west in the grass near the Franzens and after taking his Altgens 6 photo he moved 15 to 20 feet east of the Franzens in 4.5 seconds, towards the limousine, to take another picture at which point this is where he is captured on Z339. 

Altgens told the WC in referring to the time period after he took Altgens 6 but before the fatal head shot:

Mr. ALTGENS - ....The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace and I stepped out in the curb area and made another picture as the Secret Service man stepped upon the rear step of the Presidential car and went to Mrs. Kennedy's aid....

As i understand it, there is some controversy about the phrase "I stepped out". Did Altgens mean he stepped off the grass onto the concrete curb that lines the street, or did he infer he had been standing in the street and stepped out of the street back onto the concrete curb that lines Elm street.

Later in his testimony he says this:

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes; I keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony down here. After the Presidential caravan had proceeded down Elm Street, this was approximately 12:25, then, after the President was shot--the car passed in front of me I stepped into the curb area and made a picture of the Secret Service man going to the assistance of Mrs. Kennedy. I made a picture at that time which shows part of the triple overpass but it does not show the people up on it.

The phrase "I stepped into the curb area" would appear to align more closely with a person that was standing in the street and would step in towards the curb, rather than a person that was standing on the grass who would have to step onto the curb. 

Altgens marked his position on Commission Exhibit 354 with the no. "3" in a circle. He places the "3" on the grass as can be seen in this link: https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_354.pdf

What seals the mystery of Altgens position however is this piece of testimony:

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way...

In other words when Altgens took the Altgens 6 photo, Altgens was out in the street in the way of the motorcycles and so had to get "back upon the curb" to get out of the motorcycles way. 

What further clenches it that Altgens was not 15 to 20 feet further west nearer to the Franzens at the time of the Altgens 6 photo, and then moved a distance as large as 15 to 20 feet in 4.5 seconds, is this piece of testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - In looking at Commission Exhibit No. 203, does it appear to you that 203 could have been taken from position 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 and only be 30 feet away from the Presidential car at that time--I'm not saying it wasn't--I mean, just what does it look like to you? The question I'm driving at, of course, is--I want to know--did you move from the time you took the first picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 203, and the time you saw the President's head hit, did you move down the street at all?
...
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way, but if you will look at this picture----

In other words, Altgens made no big movements during the assassination sequence. The only movement he made was to get back onto the curb and out of the way of the motorcade. Additionally, I don't think Altgens could be be 15 to 20 feet in the direction of the Franzens because of this exchange at Altgens WC testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away?
Mr. ALTGENS - But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 15 feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet.

In other words, if Altgens was down near the Franzens, the Altgens 6 photo would have been out of focus. And the Altgens 6 photo is generally in good focus.

In conclusion, it would appear that Altgens was about 6 feet out into the street when he took the Altgens 6 photo. Mark Tyler in his "Motorcade 63" animation has him out in the street but i feel he may even need to be out more to make the Altgens 6 photo work photogrammetrically. 

There's a lot to unpack in his testimony. The first problem is the number three location he verified on that photo of Dealey Plaza would not allow him to photograph the limo from the front at z255. That number three location would be next to the limo if not east of it. It definitely would not allow him to photograph the limo from at least 20 ft in front of it as we see in A6.

It is also possible his memory of the timing is wrong. Did he snap the photo in the street and then walk to the curb to avoid the bikes? Or could he have seen the bikes coming, then walk to the curb before he snapped his photo?

The line of sight from the Daltex in A6 passes over the grass about 15 inches in from the curb and also passes through Charles Brehm's arms. On the map I posted the purple line represents that line of sight. It allows for Altgens to be maybe one foot into the street. But there is no way to reconcile the Daltex line of sight that passes over the grass with a position 6 ft into Elm Street. If you try and add Brehm's position to that it becomes even worse. Brehm's position on the map I posted is very accurate and can be verified by comparing the Z film and the Muchmore film.

If Altgens was 6 ft in the street then the purple line of sight from the Daltex has to be modified. But I can't find any variation in the measurements and positions of the those landmarks. The maps I have looked at and the Google Earth image all match well. So the first question is, can you find a line of sight from the Daltex the passes over the grass approximately 15 inches from the curb and ends 6 ft into the street?

The next line of sight to reconcile is the blue line that goes from the right side of the middle window of the TSB and through the lamp post on Elm. The original position of the lamp post next to the curb is very well documented by many photos. The middle window on the map of the TSB could be off by a few inches. We could take that into account by doing several lines of sight from the window. Adjusting the window location still does not allow the camera to be 6 ft into the street.

The photo had to be taken from a position where those two lines of sight meet. Taking both those lines of sight into account places Altgens next to the curb about 15 ft west of his location in the Z film. I can find no other solution other than Altgens memory and estimation of locations was off. If you could find a map that allows for both those lines of sight and  still places him in the street it would be a great help.

I think the definitive answer would require someone to be in the plaza and attempt to photographically duplicate the lines of sight. The Lamppost has been moved since the assassination so it would be better to use the monolith and the pillars at the left side of the entrance to the TSB as a line of sight instead of the lamp post/window. Once you have those two lines of sight it would be necessary to rotate towards the Colonnade and Z's pedestal and photograph that from the same position. The lines of sight in The Colonnade and from Z's pedestal to the pergola behind it would allow for a very accurate determination of the East-West location of the camera in A6.

 

[Chris Bristow]

The lines of sight in the photos below may help with your analysis of the motorcade 63 animation.

 I found a Google Street View image on Main Street (Bottom photo) that almost exactly matches the A6 line of sight to the pillars on the left of the TSB entrance. I corrected for the slight difference and the line of sight in the photo in the upper left is now a near perfect match for Altgens line of sight.

The photo in the upper right is a much more accurate line of sight that matches the curb on Elm Street to the Daltex. Altgens was standing where those two lines would cross each other on Elm, although I couldn't combine the images as my hard drive crashed and I don't have the good software anymore. I think the thickness of the yellow lines should allow for some leeway in the measurements. I could be wrong but It still seems like his location was up to 10 ft West of his position in the Z film, and he may have been up to 3 ft into the street.

 

[Robin Unger]

Altgens6 standing location in relation to the "YELLOW" curb stripe

 

 

[Robin Unger]

Altgens Trask 1 That Day In Dallas

[Robin Unger]

Altgens 6 Full Frame

 

[Robin Unger]

Cancellare photo showing the Newmans on the ground, we also see Altgens standing on the curb, and just to his right we see the the "Yellow Curb" stripe.

 

[Gerry Down]

One detail Mark Tyler has right is the Kennedy limousine and it's follow up car are hugging the line marking on the road. In other words, JFKs limousine was not exactly in the center of the center lane as it came down elm street.