Steve Roe responds to Cole/Gram on the "steel-jacket" controversy in the Walker shooting

[Mark Ulrik]

Still Stuck on Steel

Edited June 18, 2023 by Mark Ulrik

[Bill Brown]

 

Great article by Steve Roe.

 

The erroneous claim by Cole that a Dallas Police report stated that the bullet was a 30.06 has not been corrected in the original article.  As pointed out by Roe, the slug isn't called a 30.06 in any police report so why not correct the error in Cole's original article?

 

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Great article by Steve Roe.

 

The erroneous claim by Cole that a Dallas Police report stated that the bullet was a 30.06 has not been corrected in the original article.  As pointed out by Roe, the slug isn't called a 30.06 in any police report so why not correct the error in Cole's original article?

 

Bill, I'm sure Ben wants to correct that error. The stumbling block is DiEugenio. If Ben can convince DiEugenio to go back and edit that mistake, then all is good. 

[Tom Gram]

I might have to review this review. There’s some good info in there, but, not surprisingly, Steve completely avoids the egregious problems with the FBI’s investigation, which in my opinion is the most suspicious aspect of this whole thing. 

Also, for someone who makes such a big deal about fact checking, Steve could have done a better job fact checking. Steve states that Rankin’s letter to Hoover requesting additional investigation into the Walker shooting was sent on May 2nd. It was actually sent on May 20th, the same day Rankin sent the letter that led to CE2011 about chain of custody issues. 

If I recall, the “0” is cut off in the original letter, but there are references to the letter with the May 20th date in several other documents, like this teletype. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59599#relPageId=96

The May 20th date is also in literally the first sentence of CE1953: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=788

There might be an uncorrected date error regarding the Rankin letters in the K&K article too though - will have to check - but both letters were sent on May 20th. 

[Mark Ulrik]

These links might work better, Tom:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59597#relPageId=2
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=789

PS: Good catch!

Edited June 18, 2023 by Mark Ulrik

[Benjamin Cole]

I will respond here, but give me a few days and few pitchers of mai-tais. 

For the record, I have erred at least twice:

1. The two separate official police reports signed or initialed by the two DPD detectives, who collected evidence at the scene of what appeared to be an attempted murder of General Walker, did describe the true Walker bullet as "steel jacketed,", but did not ID the calibre of the slug. 

DPD Detective Van Cleave did describe the slug in the Walker home, to multiple news organizations, as a "30.06." He later said he was misquoted---I will address this. 

2. All four DPD officers at the Walker crime likely held and examined the true Walker bullet, but one or perhaps only two inscribed the slug, but likely not all four as I erroneously reported (they may have, but it is not recorded).  The FBI record is unclear whether McElroy or Norvell handed the true Walker slug to the DPD crime scene officer, and reports that they both did, each to the exclusion of the other). 

---30---

BTW, I find this comment from SR  (on his excellent blog) completely astonishing. I mean, I need adult diapers: 

"Without coaching or leading on, I simply asked this question, what was the color of that bullet (in the Walker home) that was found? His exact words were "it was a copper coated bullet".---SR

 

That is the exact description of a steel-jacketed, copper-washed or gilded steel-jacketed bullet. Steel-jacketed bullets are almost always  copper-washed, aka gilded or coated. The microscopically thin copper gilding, aka washing or coating prevents rust, and saves wear-and-tear on the inner gun barrel (copper being softer than steel). 

 

SR--do you realize your source is confirming the true Walker bullet was steel-jacketed? You have cracked this case wide-open.

 

But, of course, CE573 (the WC version of the Walker Bullet) is very, very obviously a pure copper jacket, as it has been torn asunder and revealing a solid copper jacket. No one minimally familiar with ammo could conflate CE573 with a steel-jacketed bullet---that is the crux of the problem. 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Tom Gram]

Another thing is that according to the official story, the DPD crime lab couldn’t figure out the caliber of the bullet, so they gave a verbal report to Day saying that the bullet was mangled beyond recognition. Incredibly, the lab also (allegedly) didn’t take a single evidence photo. 

Well, the FBI figured out the caliber of the bullet in about two seconds. What’s wrong with this picture? 

Also, I don’t have the document handy, but the FBI Dallas Field Office actually offered to take the Walker bullet to the FBI lab in April ‘63. So, supposedly, the DPD lab couldn’t figure out the caliber of the bullet used in an attempted assassination of a famous political figure, but they turned down the opportunity to have the bullet examined by the best forensics lab in the country? 

Then, after the JFKA, a DPD officer stated that even before the appearance of the Walker note, the DPD was considering sending the bullet in to the FBI lab so they could pin the crime on Oswald. Something does not compute, IMO. 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Another thing is that according to the official story, the DPD crime lab couldn’t figure out the caliber of the bullet, so they gave a verbal report to Day saying that the bullet was mangled beyond recognition. Incredibly, the lab also (allegedly) didn’t take a single evidence photo. 

Well, the FBI figured out the caliber of the bullet in about two seconds. What’s wrong with this picture? 

Also, I don’t have the document handy, but the FBI Dallas Field Office actually offered to take the Walker bullet to the FBI lab in April ‘63. So, supposedly, the DPD lab couldn’t figure out the caliber of the bullet used in an attempted assassination of a famous political figure, but they turned down the opportunity to have the bullet examined by the best forensics lab in the country? 

Then, after the JFKA, a DPD officer stated that even before the appearance of the Walker note, the DPD was considering sending the bullet in to the FBI lab so they could pin the crime on Oswald. Something does not compute, IMO. 

Yes, not dispositive, but the DPD in 1964 appeared minimally uninterested in collecting clues about the true Walker slug. 

You would think, in April 1964, some minimal effort would have been made to determine the make and caliber, type, and other details about the true Walker bullet, the only physical evidence DPD detectives found---at the scene of what was purported to be a murder attempt of a nationally prominent political figure. 

Pretty serious business, no? A political assassin on the loose? Might he strike again? Some duty to protect Walker, or other political figures?

The make of the the true Walker bullet would reveal the type of gun used. Then various bad actors in town or elsewhere could be looked into, to see what type of weapons they had. 

Instead, the DPD lab prepares zero paperwork, and essentially says about the true Walker Bullet, "We know nothing."  Evidently, the DPD lab cannot be bothered to send the bullet to another lab or police agency that might be able to do some investigative work on the bullet.

That is, if one believes the DPD never prepared any substantive paperwork on the slug that was aimed at Genera Walker. And never took a photograph of the true Walker slug, perhaps to send to other agencies. 

One thing is for sure---you do not want to be a high profile political figure in Dallas in 1963. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Re Copper coated (washed, gilded, plated) steel jacket bullets.

This gun board guy is asking about .308 (nearly identical to 30.06) steel-jacketed bullets:

I Inherited some .308 bullets 147 gr FMJ. 200 of em. being the thrifty type I was gonna use for practice rounds cause they are free. Buuuutt.... you can pick them up with a magnet and when touched with a file a bright sliver color appears very quickly so they are obviously copper plated steel jackets. The big question is will these hurt my bore over the course of 200 rounds or should I just not worry about. it?

And here is a comment:

They are lead bullets, but have a steel jacket with a copper wash. Here’s one sawn in half. It’s .308 147 gr FMJ military ball ammo BTW not high end hunting ammo. When i stick a nickel size neodymium magnet in the jar i come up with about 15 of ‘em stuck to it. The bright spot on the right hand piece of bullet is where I nicked it with a file. I judge the copper coating to be less than .005” thick. The jacket is .020-.025” thick and in cross section it’s the same bright silver color as the lead when you cut it with a hacksaw. Been doing some reading and apparently this is fairly standard for some types of military bullets Especially russian. Anybody seen this in US issue military bullets?

---30---

And now Steve Roe presents evidence, from a mystery witness, that the steel-jacketed bullet found in the Walker home on April 10, 1963 was "copper coated." :

In conclusion

Let me preface my remaining remarks with this. I know there will be a few naysayers claiming I made the following story up out of thin air and that's to be expected. For the record, I do not make up false fantastical stories.

A few weeks ago, I was in contact with a person who was very close to this April 10, 1963, shooting event. His family asked me to keep his identity confidential at this moment to protect his privacy. I agreed to do that out of privacy concerns. There are plans to meet him in person in the near future, as one family member said he was open to that.

In phone conversation with him about what happened that night, he gave me a good rundown. We talked about many things and some I will not reveal in this article. But I did check out things he told me, and it was never embellished, and he was most credible with a good memory of this 60-year-old event.

Without coaching or leading on, I simply asked this question, what was the color of that bullet that was found? His exact words were "it was a copper coated bullet".

---30---

https://steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com/website/post/still-stuck-on-steel?postId=b2659060-8a6a-46fc-9a37-1fc70005cb9b&utm_campaign=e6afa95a-4c42-43c8-847f-357257ecab15&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&utm_content=d5d64047-e2db-434e-8697-3d91d880697f&cid=be0b5a8a-2ba5-4c80-82a6-22670f80f869

Yes, very likely a steel-jacketed, copper-coated, heavily mangled, bullet was found in the Walker home on April 10, 1963---and by chance, patrolmen said the copper-coated slug was found in-between bundles of papers, though no bullet path through the paper bundles was noted.

BTW, I wonder who is the mystery witness? Other than Walker and DPD officers, was the slug shown to anyone else that night?  

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Mark Ulrik]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Another thing is that according to the official story, the DPD crime lab couldn’t figure out the caliber of the bullet, so they gave a verbal report to Day saying that the bullet was mangled beyond recognition. Incredibly, the lab also (allegedly) didn’t take a single evidence photo. 

Well, the FBI figured out the caliber of the bullet in about two seconds. What’s wrong with this picture? 

Beats me. Unlike the DPD, the FBI had other specimens to compare with. Even a trained monkey would have recognized the similarities between CE 573 and CE 399.

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Also, I don’t have the document handy, but the FBI Dallas Field Office actually offered to take the Walker bullet to the FBI lab in April ‘63. So, supposedly, the DPD lab couldn’t figure out the caliber of the bullet used in an attempted assassination of a famous political figure, but they turned down the opportunity to have the bullet examined by the best forensics lab in the country? 

Interesting. Was this offer mentioned in the K&K article? The bullet was in pretty poor condition, though, so maybe the thinking was to wait until other evidence (weapon, other bullets) turned up that it could realistically be matched to.

4 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Then, after the JFKA, a DPD officer stated that even before the appearance of the Walker note, the DPD was considering sending the bullet in to the FBI lab so they could pin the crime on Oswald. Something does not compute, IMO. 

Refreshingly candid of them to admit that they were determined to pin the crime on Oswald. Source?

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Beats me. Unlike the DPD, the FBI had other specimens to compare with. Even a trained monkey would have recognized the similarities between CE 573 and CE 399.

Interesting. Was this offer mentioned in the K&K article? The bullet was in pretty poor condition, though, so maybe the thinking was to wait until other evidence (weapon, other bullets) turned up that it could realistically be matched to.

Refreshingly candid of them to admit that they were determined to pin the crime on Oswald. Source?

Mark Ulrik:

Do you purport that DPD officer Norvell marked the true Walker bullet with an "N" that was two millimeters high, or well less than one-tenth of an inch high (actually less than 8/100ths of an inch) high? And that he marked the bullet with an object other than a sharp awl or stylus? 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Mark Ulrik]

14 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Mark Ulrik:

Do you purport that DPD officer Norvell marked the true Walker bullet with an "N" that was two millimeters high, or well less than one-tenth of an inch high? And that he marked the bullet with an object other than a sharp awl or stylus?

I don't remember reading anything about what kind of tool he used, but other letters on the bullet are of similar height.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I don't remember reading anything about what kind of tool he used, but other letters on the bullet are of similar height.

So, you do believe Norvell marked CE573 and left a mark about two millimeters high, or less than one-tenth of inch high (actually, about 8/100ths of an inch high)?

Edited June 19, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Beats me. Unlike the DPD, the FBI had other specimens to compare with. Even a trained monkey would have recognized the similarities between CE 573 and CE 399.

Interesting. Was this offer mentioned in the K&K article? The bullet was in pretty poor condition, though, so maybe the thinking was to wait until other evidence (weapon, other bullets) turned up that it could realistically be matched to.

Refreshingly candid of them to admit that they were determined to pin the crime on Oswald. Source?

I found the FBI offer document after the article was published. I have a bookmark but I found it in the Malcolm Blunt archive, and whenever I bookmark something there it just takes me to the main Walker folder so I have to dig it up again. Pretty sure I’ve seen it on MFF too though. I’ll try to find it later. I’m sure you can find it if you search a bit. 

The second thing is in the addendum to the Loeffeler memo. The DPD advised Don Moore that they’d been considering sending in the bullet because they thought - without any evidence - that there there was a possibility Oswald might have taken the shot. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145516#relPageId=30

So the FBI offered to examine the bullet when the crime was fresh, but the DPD declined and decided that the bullet was worthless as evidence - then apparently they did a 180 after the JFKA and decided the bullet was in good enough condition to connect Oswald to the shooting. 

So, “pin the crime on Oswald” might be a bit of an exaggeration, but that’s basically what happened. 

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I don't remember reading anything about what kind of tool he used, but other letters on the bullet are of similar height.

I’m with Ben on this. It is hardly conclusive that that weird looking “N” was even made by a human. All the other visible marks are etched in normally like you’d expect, but the alleged “N” is in tiny bubble letters. What kind of tool could even make a mark like that?