A Problem with "Prayer Man"

[Leslie Sharp]

10 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Leslie Sharp writes:

He isn't.

The best place for Leslie to continue her conversation with Greg is where it began (Facebook, I think). There's no point arguing here with someone who can't respond here.

This thread is about Prayer Man. On another thread, I answered Leslie's claim that Oswald could not have been standing on the steps because that would have invalidated his role as a lone-nut patsy. I explained how Oswald could have been framed before the assassination and still have been free to stand wherever he wanted during the assassination:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30101-rob-reiner-talks-about-two-oswalds/?do=findComment&comment=527243

If Leslie wants to continue that particular conversation, this is the appropriate place.

P.S. I'm aware that Austin is a more civilised city than Dallas. It could hardly be worse, could it?

By your logic, anyone could have been an "effective patsy"? You write that the patsy could have been at the White House. Or taking it another step, the FBI could just flip through their files, find one of those other American defectors to the Soviet Union who returned to the US and arrest him regardless of his location on November 22. Do I have that right?

If, as I believe Greg argues, young school kids were sitting in the balcony of TT, why weren't they identified as African Americans? In spite of pending immigration across the country, I assure you that Dallas was still identifying "coloreds." 

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Leslie Sharp writes:

Quote

the FBI could just flip through their files, find one of those other American defectors to the Soviet Union who returned to the US and arrest him regardless of his location on November 22. Do I have that right?

No. As I pointed out earlier, it was the combination of two factors which made Oswald a useful those-darned-commies-killed-JFK patsy:

• His personal ties to the Soviet and Cuban regimes.
• The prima facie evidence which linked him to the rifle and linked the rifle to the shooting.

Those factors linked the Soviet and Cuban regimes to the assassination. There was no need for Oswald to have been up on the sixth floor, firing that rifle, or hiding out of sight somewhere else.

In fact, if it looked as though Oswald had merely supplied the rifle, and one or more others had actually carried out the assassination, this larger conspiracy would have implicated the Soviet and Cuban regimes more strongly.

Quote

If, as I believe Greg argues, young school kids were sitting in the balcony of TT, why weren't they identified as African Americans?

Presumably the journalist Jim Ewell would have mentioned that they were African Americans if that is what they were. Since he didn't, we should assume that they were white. I'd guess that in the mind of a typical white reporter in the early 1960s, someone's ethnicity wouldn't need to be stated unless it deviated from what he considered to be the default setting.

[Greg Doudna]

In No More Silence, p. 485, deputy sheriff Bill Courson tells of meeting one of the persons coming down from the balcony in the Texas Theatre, and how he (mistakenly) believed that man had been Oswald.

He could not have mistakenly believed someone was Oswald, who was white, if that man from the balcony had been black. 

Of all the witness accounts that day, no one has said any of the ca 12-20 patrons in the theater that day (Julia Postal remembered the number of tickets sold had been either 14 or 24, and the witness accounts overwhelming favor the 14 as being the correct number of the two), either on the ground level or in the balcony, were African-American (colored in the language then), and there is no evidence the Texas Theatre had a formal rule of or was practicing strict segregation in Nov 1963. The killer of Tippit, a white man, without dispute ran into the balcony at about 1:35 pm because that was logistically how a person without showing a ticket could get into the theater without being seen by concessionaire Burroughs in the lobby at the ground level. (That killer of Tippit who ran into the balcony was probably the same man Courson mistakenly thought was Oswald coming down from the balcony.) 

[Tom Gram]

16 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

In No More Silence, p. 485, deputy sheriff Bill Courson tells of meeting one of the persons coming down from the balcony in the Texas Theatre, and how he (mistakenly) believed that man had been Oswald.

He could not have mistakenly believed someone was Oswald, who was white, if that man from the balcony had been black. 

Of all the witness accounts that day, no one has said any of the ca 12-20 patrons in the theater that day (Julia Postal remembered the number of tickets sold had been either 14 or 24, and the witness accounts overwhelming favor the 14 as being the correct number of the two), either on the ground level or in the balcony, were African-American (colored in the language then), and there is no evidence the Texas Theatre had a formal rule of or was practicing strict segregation in Nov 1963. The killer of Tippit, a white man, without dispute ran into the balcony at about 1:35 pm because that was logistically how a person without showing a ticket could get into the theater without being seen by concessionaire Burroughs in the lobby at the ground level. (That killer of Tippit who ran into the balcony was probably the same man Courson mistakenly thought was Oswald coming down from the balcony.) 

How many officers actually went up to that balcony? I know Paul Bentley said he entered the theater, went straight to the balcony, saw a group of teens up there or something, had the house lights turned on, then miraculously made it downstairs in time to be the first person to jump in the scuffle with McDonald and Oswald. I’m pretty sure there were other cops who quickly went up to the balcony too though. (Check Bentley’s chapter in No More Silence) 

I’m very suspicious of Bentley, for several reasons, but I’m curious how the timing works out with all these cops in the balcony and your theory on the Tippit killer going up there and somehow walking downstairs and casually leaving the theater without being noticed or stopped. 

[Greg Doudna]

20 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

How many officers actually went up to that balcony? I know Paul Bentley said he entered the theater, went straight to the balcony, saw a group of teens up there or something, had the house lights turned on, then miraculously made it downstairs in time to be the first person to jump in the scuffle with McDonald and Oswald. I’m pretty sure there were other cops who quickly went up to the balcony too though. (Check Bentley’s chapter in No More Silence) 

I’m very suspicious of Bentley, for several reasons, but I’m curious how the timing works out with all these cops in the balcony and your theory on the Tippit killer going up there and somehow walking downstairs and casually leaving the theater without being noticed or stopped. 

Timing reconstruction: Oswald enters theater as paid-ticket patron (ticket bought from Julia Postal, handed to general manager Callahan at the door), ca. 1:15 pm, ground level seating. Then Oswald does his odd seating in the seat directly next to Jack Davis during what Jack Davis says was the opening credits of the film, then getting up and sitting next to someone else ... before finally seating on his own toward the rear of the middle section.

1:35 pm the killer of Tippit, misidentified as Oswald by Brewer, goes past Brewer's store and up into the balcony when Julia Postal's attention is otherwise distracted. (I half suspect that killer of Tippit actually had a legitimately earlier purchased ticket in his pocket ready to show if he had been confronted.) 

Brewer (well in keeping with behavior of neighborhood merchants and store managers in my experience), suspicious and following, goes to Julia Postal and into the theater to find the unidentified ticket-crasher who went into the balcony. Brewer and Burroughs look in the darkness into the balcony but see no one. Police are called of someone suspicious and hiding from police (everyone has the JFK assassination in mind as context, and for police, they had been through two false leads in hot pursuit of an armed and dangerous Tippit killer--the library, and the antique store next to Dean's Dairy--so they believe there is a killer at large in the vicinity, explaining the strong and rapid Dallas Police response and of anyone else listening to police radio). 

Immediately police (and deputy sheriffs and a couple of FBI and a reporter or two) arrive and converge. Courson arrived no differently than the earliest of the other arriving police, for he says he learned of the Texas Theatre location from police radio. (Courson claims in his Sneed interview, in this his only account ever of his movements that day, that he was at Tenth and Patton and overheard the police radio call from the radio in Tippit's patrol car.) 

Police were entering both the front and the alley rear entrance simultaneously as rapidly as they could get there and go inside. Entering the front there were two choices: remain on the ground floor and proceed to the main seating area, or go up a stairway into the balcony. From early written reports and later interviews in Sneed, officers who went up the stairs to check in the balcony include Courson, Cunningham, Toney, either Buck or Taylor, Paul Bentley, Gerald Hill, and I think Buddy Walthers all said they went into the balcony. (Gerald Hill's written report to Curry says Bentley was with him in the balcony.) Cunningham and Toney each tell of interviewing the same man described by Courson coming out of that balcony, coming from exactly where the killer of Tippit was last known to have gone minutes earlier.

What is known of that particular young white man: one thing, he was a smoker. (For what it is worth, Oswald was not a smoker. Craford was a smoker.) 

And he had on a "a kind of plaid or checkered shirt" (color not stated) and no jacket (Courson), and he must have looked similar enough to Oswald in physical description that he was capable of being mistakenly remembered as Oswald by Courson. 

Officer Cunningham, the lead officer of Toney, Buck and Taylor, asked the man's name and the man told him. Cunningham wrote it down. But Cunningham said he did not remember whether he turned that name in and said it did not matter because none of those witnesses had anything important to say anyway, so it did not matter that their names were not preserved. (Cunningham in Sneed, 266: "I just talked to them and took their names down. In fact, I don't recall whether I turned the list of names in or not. In any case, there was nothing there in light of useful information.") 

Cunningham also self-identified in that Sneed interview as "I knew Jack Ruby probably as well as any officer in Dallas".

Officer Toney who helped collect the list of written names of patrons believed the names had been turned in (Sneed, 309). But the names either were not turned in or were disappeared after having been turned in. The Warren Commission wondered what those names were because no one was producing them and asked Capt. Westbrook, officer in command at the Theatre. Westbrook confirmed he had ordered the names of patrons to be taken and preserved. But Westbrook, though he had ordered the names taken, answered that he had no idea what was done with the names, said ask Cunningham. Here Cunningham says he "do[es]n't recall whether I turned the list of names in or not", which is other language for Cunningham saying "I tossed them". Why would Cunningham do a thing like that?

I have wondered if Cunningham's "I knew Jack Ruby probably as well as any officer in Dallas" had anything to do with Cunningham tossing those written names, such that the name given by the man in the balcony where the killer of Tippit had last been known to have been minutes earlier, is unknown today.

According to Toney's report to Curry, the officers checked with general manager Callahan on the ground area below concerning the man in the balcony, and Callahan told them that man was OK, because he had purchased a ticket at "12:05". That time, 12:05, does not make sense since supposedly tickets did not start being sold until 12:45. The possibility exists that 12:05 was an error for 12:45--general manager Callahan vouching for remembering that man had bought a ticket at 12:45--or was 12:05 no mistake and he bought a ticket at 12:05?--before that man perhaps slipped away with the assistance of a driver in a vehicle, murdered Tippit, then returned on foot to the Texas Theatre with intent, as reconstructed, to kill Oswald there. 

The theater was sealed upon police arrival just before Oswald's arrest, and then after Oswald's arrest all the patrons' names and contact information were taken--this was the written information that Cunningham decided against orders was of no value for him to turn in--and then the patrons were released, which would have included the man from the balcony. He did not walk out the doors on his own before this, but rather was sealed inside with the other patrons until names were taken and preliminary questioning, etc., and then that man left the theater along with all the other patrons when they were all cleared to leave, and nobody to the present day knows who he was. He was probably only the killer of Tippit, but apart from that, as Cunningham assured everyone, there was nothing of interest to anyone in knowing the identity of that man.

I collected testimonies related to that man in the balcony and the officers' encounters with him at pp. 1-20 here, https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/T-Jackets-112.pdf. 

Incidentally, in that paper I noted a reference to a pickup truck near the rear entrance of the Texas Theatre with its engine running and no driver, seen by police at the time of arrival. I wondered if that was a getaway vehicle ready for a killer of Oswald if Oswald had been killed following the Tippit killer running into the balcony. I don't know that that is excluded, but I may have found a possible reference to that pickup truck. Dallas Morning News reporter Jim Ewall, in Sneed, speaking of Oswald's arrest: "Oswald then took my place in the backseat of the same car that I arrived in. So when they left with him, I stood there, stranded. I then hitchhiked a ride with a man in a pickup truck."

Whether it was that pickup truck or some other vehicle, according to my reconstruction there should have been a getaway vehicle of some kind. The other possibility could be the red car seen in the El Chico parking lot on N. Beckley, bearing on that day someone else's license plates on it, reported by mechanic White of Pate's auto garage.

That red car may have belonged to Igor Vaganov, the same Vaganov who spent time in the days just before the assassination in the very building of the Carousel Club where lived suspected Tippit killer, Ruby employee and self-professed hitman Curtis Craford, several times known to have been mistakenly identified as Oswald by sincere witnesses. But Vaganov, if he was the driver seated inside the red car of mechanic White's sighting, could look like Oswald's face in agreement with mechanic White's sighting.  

If Oswald had been set up he would have been targeted for death before being taken into police custody, therefore at the theater if it was known he was there.

I have previously suggested that a memo in a little notebook of Curtis Craford that Craford carried around on his person all the time may allude to the details of a planned meeting of Oswald in the Texas Theatre, "Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co.", no phone number or calendar date given (i.e. Friday Nov 22, 15 o'clock or 3 pm, someone of Collins Radio Co. [Carl Mather?]). 

What I have since learned is this: immediately following that entry in Craford's notebook is this: "Cody--City Hall." That is believed to be a reference to Dallas Police officer Joe Cody. The juxtaposition of those two entries--the only two entries on that page in Craford's notebook (the bottom half of which page is torn off and missing)--suggests the possibility that Cody could have been the source of the information of the entry immediately above, the Friday Collins Radio Co. "15 persons" reference.

Well wonder of wonders, a phone number written by Oswald twice in his address book--not once but twice on two distinct pages--without any name or other identifying information--is the home phone number of Dallas Police officer Joe Cody.

Up until now that has been explained as Oswald wrote that number down--twice, with no other notes--because he saw that number listed for Joe Cody's uncle who was renting apartments in Oak Cliff. But Joe Cody's uncle and Joe Cody lived at the same place and shared the same home phone.

And Joe Cody was very close to Ruby, as told in Joe Cody's account in Sneed. Oswald has his home phone number. Signal or static? I don't know.  

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

To return briefly to Leslie's remarks on page 8 about her squabble with xxxxxxxxx, she might like to know that xxxxx has added a section to the article I quoted elsewhere, which mentions Leslie:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Readers may recall that Leslie appeared to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. I suggested that she either provide some evidence to back up this claim, or acknowledge that she has no evidence.

She hasn't done either of these things, as far as I can tell. If she stands by her accusation, she really ought to provide some evidence. If she can't provide such evidence, she really ought to withdraw the accusation.

What is Leslie going to do: provide the evidence, or withdraw the accusation?

 

Jeremy,

Leslie did respond, but moderators removed all posts related to the squabble. I quoted your post here just in case you want to use it elsewhere, not on this forum

 

[Leslie Sharp]

Oswald-related entries found in the 1963 datebook maintained by Pierre Lafitte.

Note: September 16, set-up complete; October 25, Oswald set in place

 

March 26

McWillie — guns

with Davis - Oswald

 

April 7

Walker — Lee and pictures

Planned soon —

Can he do it? Wait [Won’t]

 

May 10

T says tail LO - no direct

contacts - calls? No

report to Angleton + not

here (wife) Rene says A

looks like cadaver -

Mexico City? 

 

May 23

Ask T about Oswald

Magazine? Kane and

Zale NY.

 

May 28

Oswald

 

July 23

Oswald — wife M —

Where

 

August 26

Oswald — bank?

M — meet T.

 

September 16

T. says L.O. is ‘idiot’

but w be used regardless

Set-up complete

 

September 22

Oswald — Mex City

Gaudet?

 

September 24

Oswald. D/T.

(Labadie / Florida)

W.J.

 

September 26

O. traveling

(Let T. know)

Madrid

 

September 27

Oswald — Commercio Hotel to

meet with Tom D at Luma —

T. Says yes

 

October 6

Oswald — issue (!)

check with

Caretaker . . .

 

October 9

………

T says

called Oswald to purpose — weapons—

…………

October 17

JA call yest.

Says high - level

gathering in D.C.

Lancelot - go - ok

Oswald - others

 

October 25

O says done

Oswald set in place

call Walker + others

 

November 9

On the wings of murder the

pigeon way for unsuspecting

Lee.  Clip clip his wings

 

November 22

Merde merde xxxx xxxx

—O Tippett  why?

Run sparrow run

fly!

—ask JA who is Tippett! ?

 

(possible references to Lee Oswald)

 

May 26

—L.O. — Wisner

    Vosjoli  D.C.  JA

 

October 27

Gali Sherbatov — L.O.

(Orlov)

(Itkin)

-Harvey-