A Problem with "Prayer Man"

[Leslie Sharp]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Whether there is or isn't is, to me, irrelevant at this late date. Researchers, and the general public, rightly want DEFINITIVE proof ... not datebooks of unknown authenticity, not absurd theories about Lee Harvey Oswald doppelgangers, not a default position that all of the film and photo evidence from Dealey Plaza has been faked or altered. A definitive determination that Oswald was indeed standing in front of the TSBD during the assassination would end 60 years of debate in one fell swoop.

You're saying  the crime would be solved if we prove Oswald didn't kill Kennedy?

This skirts on the absurd, @Jonathan Cohen. Unless I'm mistaken, you and I had this same exchange months ago? 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Jonathan Cohen]

43 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

You're saying  the crime would be solved if we prove Oswald didn't kill Kennedy?

This skirts on the absurd, @Jonathan Cohen. Unless I'm mistaken, you and I had this same exchange months ago? 

No, I’m not saying the “crime” would be solved. But a positive ID of Oswald on the steps would by definition prove a conspiracy and as such invalidate every “Oswald did it alone” argument which has persisted since 1963. That may not be enough for you, but it’s perfectly reasonable that it would be enough for many other researchers who have devoted decades to the subject. I truly don’t understand the implication that the research community should be in any way obligated to throw all their chips in on your version of events, particularly given the questionable veracity of the datebook upon which it rests.

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

No, I’m not saying the “crime” would be solved. But a positive ID of Oswald on the steps would by definition prove a conspiracy and as such invalidate every “Oswald did it alone” argument which has persisted since 1963. That may not be enough for you, but it’s perfectly reasonable that it would be enough for many other researchers who have devoted decades to the subject. I truly don’t understand the implication that the research community should be in any way obligated to throw all their chips in on your version of events, particularly given the questionable veracity of the datebook upon which it rests.

I do wonder why anyone continues to pursue the research unless the endgame is to identify who killed JFK.

Can you elaborate on the "questionable veracity" of the datebook? On what do you base that accusation?

 

[Ron Bulman]

No datebook, no prayerman.  Still no Oswald on the sixth floor.  No proof of that, no one could ever put him in the window with a gun in his hands.

[Leslie Sharp]

@Roger Odisio Can you summarize your interpretation of Jesse Curry's contribution — or not — to the Prayer Man argument?

I remember deliberating with PMer's on Morley's site but I'm not entirely clear on whether Curry adds to the supposition Oswald is standing outside the depository building or not.  thanks.  

[Roger Odisio]

18 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

@Roger Odisio Can you summarize your interpretation of Jesse Curry's contribution — or not — to the Prayer Man argument?

I remember deliberating with PMer's on Morley's site but I'm not entirely clear on whether Curry adds to the supposition Oswald is standing outside the depository building or not.  thanks.  

I haven't paid a lot of attention to Curry. Some of the things he said, including in his book when he retired, lend credence to the idea that Oswald may not have been a lone assassin, rather where he was at the time. As I recall, early on amid the chaos of the first few days, wasn't he the guy who blurted out to the press that they didn't have anyone who could place Oswald on the 6th floor?

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

I haven't paid a lot of attention to Curry. Some of the things he said, including in his book when he retired, lend credence to the idea that Oswald may not have been a lone assassin, rather where he was at the time. As I recall, early on amid the chaos of the first few days, wasn't he the guy who blurted out to the press that they didn't have anyone who could place Oswald on the 6th floor?

I believe you're right.  I asked because we now have confirmed that Pierre Lafitte's entry CM966 is reference to contact information for the Dallas City Manager, Elgin Crull, who had ultimate responsibility for the police dept., and hired Jesse Curry himself.

Crull left town before the assassination and returned after Ruby shot Oswald.

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/23/2023 at 4:43 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

On 7/23/2023 at 2:57 PM, Roger Odisio said:

I haven't paid a lot of attention to Curry. Some of the things he said, including in his book when he retired, lend credence to the idea that Oswald may not have been a lone assassin, rather where he was at the time. As I recall, early on amid the chaos of the first few days, wasn't he the guy who blurted out to the press that they didn't have anyone who could place Oswald on the 6th floor?

I believe you're right.  I asked because we now have confirmed that Pierre Lafitte's entry CM966 is reference to contact information for the Dallas City Manager, Elgin Crull, who had ultimate responsibility for the police dept., and hired Jesse Curry himself.

Crull left town before the assassination and returned after Ruby shot Oswald.

Yes, Curry words to the effect of We never could put Oswald in that window with a rifle in his hands.  But I thought this was well after the assassination in an interview.

Crull left town . . . , which would leave CIA Asset Earle Cabell, brother of General Charles Cabell, fired by JFK after the BOP, in charge?  Who called Fritz Sunday morning before Oswald's transfer and kept him on the line while Oswald was assassinated?  Is my memory correct on this?

Owner of the TSBD, Harold Dry Hole Byrd goes on his first African safari a week or two before the assassination, not returning until afterward.

I've read that H L Hunt, after the assassination went to a ranch he owned in Mexico for a month.  Then that that was a cover story, that he went to Washington and stayed in a hotel near the Whitehouse under an assumed name, to advise LBJ.

Maybe Leslie has heard the rumors about Hunt, given her employment in the early 1980's?

[Leslie Sharp]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Yes, Curry words to the effect of We never could put Oswald in that window with a rifle in his hands.  But I thought this was well after the assassination in an interview.

Crull left town . . . , which would leave CIA Asset Earle Cabell, brother of General Charles Cabell, fired by JFK after the BOP, in charge?  Who called Fritz Sunday morning before Oswald's transfer and kept him on the line while Oswald was assassinated?  Is my memory correct on this?

Owner of the TSBD, Harold Dry Hole Byrd goes on his first African safari a week or two before the assassination, not returning until afterward.

I've read that H L Hunt, after the assassination went to a ranch he owned in Mexico for a month.  Then that that was a cover story, that he went to Washington and stayed in a hotel near the Whitehouse under an assumed name, to advise LBJ.

Maybe Leslie has heard the rumors about Hunt, given her employment in the early 1980's?

I believe Crull would have been responsible to the Mayor, right?   

I think there's some controversy over whether D. H. Byrd had returned to Dallas "for the assassination" along with his Safari guide and friend, Werner von Alvensleben, Jr. Dan Alcorn, DC attorney involved with the battle for the release of all assassination related files including Byrd and von A, has researched this in depth.

Here's a link to a related court filing if you haven't seen it;  and I see there are Ed Forum threads as far back as 2006 dedicated to this topic.

https://aarclibrary.org/news-aarc-seeking-documents-relating-to-d-h-byrd-werner-von-alvensleben-jr-and-the-doolittle-report/ 
 

As I recall, early exposés of Hunt's whereabouts had him in New York at the Waldorf Astoria (General MacArthur); or DC at the behest of LBJ as you note. The hotel was The Mayflower. I remember because as late as 1980, it was 'suggested' that we book into The Mayflower on our sales trips to DC. I seldom saved receipts, but for some reason I saved all receipts from a particular DC trip; I had been asked to deliver an envelop to a PR guy, Robert Keith Gray. At the time, Rosewood was trying to secure planning permission for a hotel on the Potomac. It was almost two decades before I realized the significance of Gray.

 I don't think I've read that H. L. hid out in Mexico after the assassination.  

[Leslie Sharp]

@Jeremy Bojczuk  I'm not entirely clear whether Greg Parker is permitted to comment on EF threads; it does appear you are his sometime proxy so you're invited to give him a heads up that I've resumed the conversation on this thread which picks up with another private message exchange along the same theme (see Reiner talks about the two Oswalds).



Sharp: You're incorrigible. I'm curious. If you asked about my pen name, why didn't you ask me additional questions you broach in your screed?

Parker: Firstly back to the TT which you managed to represent at the Ed Forum as me bringing up Prayer Man. The arrest had nothing to do with Oswald being on the steps. Why do you keep misrepresenting things?

Here is the quote from Jim Ewell,

    "For some reason, instead of following the police into the main part of the theater, the lower floor, I went up these stairs into the balcony. And there, there must have been about fifteen or twenty high school age boys up there watching. They’d skipped school to watch double feature war movies. One of them was “War Is Hell.”"

https://web.archive.org/web/20220118172113/https://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/History/The_deed/Sneed/Ewell.html

This is about provided you with actual facts, not about any gunfight. Though I acknowledge your right to bear arms is enshrined lol

I hope this will not now be misrepresented as more on Prayer Man - or indeed, as an Aussie having the gall to tell you about the history of Texas theatres. If the boys had been African-American, I am sure Ewell would have said so in the wording of the times.

Sharp: I won't be debating you on this private platform. Find a work-around if you've been banned from EF.  It's obvious you have a few proxies in place. What I'm offended by, both personally and professionally, is your sleazy approach.  You ask one question in a jolly go lightly tone, knowing that you have no intention of permitting me to answer the myriad of others before you leap headlong into . .. whatever that was.  Disappointing although in hindsight, not surprising.

Parker: Asking about your pen-name was an opportunity to see how truthful you would be. I decided on balance, it made little sense. And I said so when i called it "thin" to you here. I therefore had no faith that you would tell the truth about anything else. You had already lied about going to the FBI about an alleged threat, implied falsely that I was involved in alleged threat, refused to give a direct answer when Jeremy challenged you on that, thus implying yet again that I was involved. Even your faux anger over me calling you "Les" once at JFKFacts shows your aptitude for falsity, since as is now known, Lesley is not your name anyway. And my portrayal of your efforts to pattuy queries about the datebook are absolutely spot on. Stultifying.


And now:
So you (Greg) admit that your approach was deceptive and meant to disarm? Straight out of an agency playbook, Greg.

I could not care less whether you're satisfied by the history of the pen name I opted to use when writing about the Kennedy assassination.  Nor should anyone else, unless of course buttons are being triggered as in your case.  

You're defensive about a hypothesis you and others have poured heart and soul into, and I get that; but did you the Royal not consider the possibility - nay the fact now - that eventually, evidence could surface to challenge the theory that Oswald — the perfect patsy — was standing outside the depository building when the barrage of gunfire took K's life?

Lafitte writes, "Oswald in place". "L.O. is idiot but will be used regardless" "Oswald set in place" "Clip Clip his wings the pigeon way" "Fly fly away". There's not the slightest intimation Oswald was anything other than the perfect patsy, nor is there evidence of concern that he was spotted standing outside the depository.  Does that suggest someone on the inside of the building, maybe Shelley, had been assigned to keep him inside or at least contain any slip up should he be caught on film outside? Perhaps, ergo the renewed interest in Shelley AND Bookhout

What is your evidence I lied about going to the FBI? First, I'm fairly sure I said that I had to restrain my spouse from calling the FBI having read the threat on jfkfacts. I was new at the game and had no idea this is normal operating procedure online for some ruffians and boorish brutes. Apparently the FBI still takes such chatter seriously.  I implicated you because the party making the threat (I genuinely cannot remember his name) was following your lead to the letter. I asked but you failed to rein him in and that's how you entered the fray. You of all people know the value of 'policing our own.'*

I still have to ask, who put you in charge of what I should or shouldn't react to.  Leslie is not "Les".  I wasn't then - nor am I now for damn certain - your friend so the nickname struck me as weird. It still does.

Suggesting pen names are representative of an aptitude for falsity is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Here are a couple of hundred.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pen_names

I'm not sure what your last sentence means ... something about the datebook.  You can review the debates on various threads.  If you're not satisfied, that certainly is your subjective prerogative. 

Meanwhile the pursuit of a possibility Shelley was actively controlling Oswald's movements on the day continues; pursuit of Bookhout's possible relationship to Odum who we continue to consider as the likely primary caretaker of Oswald continues.

I hope you'll move on, Greg.

*Brehon Laws . . . The only executive authority in ancient Ireland which lay behind the decision of the judge was the traditional obedience and good sense of the people, and it does not appear that this was ever found wanting. The Brehons never appear to have had any trouble in getting their decisions accepted by the common people. The public appear to have seen to it that the Brehon’s decision was always carried out. This was indeed the very essence of democratic government, with no executive authority behind it but the will of the people, There can be no doubt whatever that the system trained an intelligent and law-abiding public.

Edited January 31 by Leslie Sharp

[Leslie Sharp]

4 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

@Jeremy Bojczuk  I'm not entirely clear whether Greg Parker is permitted to comment on EF threads; it does appear you both are his sometime proxy so you're invited to give him a heads up that I've resumed the conversation on this thread which picks up with another private message exchange along the same theme (see Reiner talks about the two Oswalds).



Sharp: You're incorrigible. I'm curious. If you asked about my pen name, why didn't you ask me additional questions you broach in your screed?

Parker: Firstly back to the TT which you managed to represent at the Ed Forum as me bringing up Prayer Man. The arrest had nothing to do with Oswald being on the steps. Why do you keep misrepresenting things?

Here is the quote from Jim Ewell,

    "For some reason, instead of following the police into the main part of the theater, the lower floor, I went up these stairs into the balcony. And there, there must have been about fifteen or twenty high school age boys up there watching. They’d skipped school to watch double feature war movies. One of them was “War Is Hell.”"

https://web.archive.org/web/20220118172113/https://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/History/The_deed/Sneed/Ewell.html

This is about provided you with actual facts, not about any gunfight. Though I acknowledge your right to bear arms is enshrined lol

I hope this will not now be misrepresented as more on Prayer Man - or indeed, as an Aussie having the gall to tell you about the history of Texas theatres. If the boys had been African-American, I am sure Ewell would have said so in the wording of the times.

Sharp: I won't be debating you on this private platform. Find a work-around if you've been banned from EF.  It's obvious you have a few proxies in place. What I'm offended by, both personally and professionally, is your sleazy approach.  You ask one question in a jolly go lightly tone, knowing that you have no intention of permitting me to answer the myriad of others before you leap headlong into . .. whatever that was.  Disappointing although in hindsight, not surprising.

Parker: Asking about your pen-name was an opportunity to see how truthful you would be. I decided on balance, it made little sense. And I said so when i called it "thin" to you here. I therefore had no faith that you would tell the truth about anything else. You had already lied about going to the FBI about an alleged threat, implied falsely that I was involved in alleged threat, refused to give a direct answer when Jeremy challenged you on that, thus implying yet again that I was involved. Even your faux anger over me calling you "Les" once at JFKFacts shows your aptitude for falsity, since as is now known, Lesley is not your name anyway. And my portrayal of your efforts to pattuy queries about the datebook are absolutely spot on. Stultifying.


And now:
So you (Greg) admit that your approach was deceptive and meant to disarm? Straight out of an agency playbook, Greg.

I could not care less whether you're satisfied by the history of the pen name I opted to use when writing about the Kennedy assassination.  Nor should anyone else, unless of course buttons are being triggered as in your case.  

You're defensive about a hypothesis you and others have poured heart and soul into, and I get that; but did you the Royal not consider the possibility - nay the fact now - that eventually, evidence could surface to challenge the theory that Oswald — the perfect patsy — was standing outside the depository building when the barrage of gunfire took K's life?

Lafitte writes, "Oswald in place". "L.O. is idiot but will be used regardless" "Oswald set in place" "Clip Clip his wings the pigeon way" "Fly fly away". There's not the slightest intimation Oswald was anything other than the perfect patsy, nor is there evidence of concern that he was spotted standing outside the depository.  Does that suggest someone on the inside of the building, maybe Shelley, had been assigned to keep him inside or at least contain any slip up should he be caught on film outside? Perhaps, ergo the renewed interest in Shelley AND Bookhout

What is your evidence I lied about going to the FBI? First, I'm fairly sure I said that I had to restrain my spouse from calling the FBI having read the threat on jfkfacts. I was new at the game and had no idea this is normal operating procedure online for some ruffians and boorish brutes. Apparently the FBI still takes such chatter seriously.  I implicated you because the party making the threat (I genuinely cannot remember his name) was following your lead to the letter. I asked but you failed to rein him in and that's how you entered the fray. You of all people know the value of 'policing our own.'*

I still have to ask, who put you in charge of what I should or shouldn't react to.  Leslie is not "Les".  I wasn't then - nor am I now for damn certain - your friend so the nickname struck me as weird. It still does.

Suggesting pen names are representative of an aptitude for falsity is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Here are a couple of hundred.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pen_names

I'm not sure what your last sentence means ... something about the datebook.  You can review the debates on various threads.  If you're not satisfied, that certainly is your subjective prerogative. 

Meanwhile the pursuit of a possibility Shelley was actively controlling Oswald's movements on the day continues; pursuit of Bookhout's possible relationship to Odum who we continue to consider as the likely primary caretaker of Oswald continues.

I hope you'll move on, Greg.

*Brehon Laws . . . The only executive authority in ancient Ireland which lay behind the decision of the judge was the traditional obedience and good sense of the people, and it does not appear that this was ever found wanting. The Brehons never appear to have had any trouble in getting their decisions accepted by the common people. The public appear to have seen to it that the Brehon’s decision was always carried out. This was indeed the very essence of democratic government, with no executive authority behind it but the will of the people, There can be no doubt whatever that the system trained an intelligent and law-abiding public.

 

Austin, capitol city of Texas was and remains markedly more progressive than Dallas. 

March 8, 2021

60 Years Ago this spring: The struggle to desegregate Austin's movie theaters

AUSTIN, Texas — Austin in 1960 was slowly outgrowing its image as just a “college town” as the population approached 200,000. But like most cities in the South, Austin was actually two towns: one for white residents and one for Black residents, with white residents generally living west of what was to become Interstate 35 and Black and Hispanic residents living east.

. . . McCulloch and McNealy were among a number of former students who participated in the 1960-61 protests who were interviewed for the documentary "The Stand-ins," produced by People’s History in Texas. The documentary tells the story of how the protests eventually led to change. 

By the next year, the “stand-ins” had forced the Texan and Varsity theaters to open their doors to Black patrons. Other movie houses in town remained whites-only for a few more years until 1964 when civil rights for all became the law of the land. . . .

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/history/austin-movie-theaters-segregation-the-backstory/269-f1046ea2-0522-40b4-b400-ea7caa8ae35e

Edited January 31 by Leslie Sharp

[Roger Odisio]

3 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

@Jeremy Bojczuk @Roger Odisio I'm not entirely clear whether Greg Parker is permitted to comment on EF threads; it does appear you both are his sometime proxy so you're invited to give him a heads up that I've resumed the conversation on this thread which picks up with another private message exchange along the same theme (see Reiner talks about the two Oswalds).

I'm nobody's proxy.

[Leslie Sharp]

42 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

I'm nobody's proxy.

Read and corrected.

[Leslie Sharp]

43 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

I'm nobody's proxy.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Leslie Sharp writes:

Quote

I'm not entirely clear whether Greg Parker is permitted to comment on EF threads

He isn't.

Quote

I've resumed the conversation on this thread which picks up with another private message exchange along the same theme

The best place for Leslie to continue her conversation with Greg is where it began (Facebook, I think). There's no point arguing here with someone who can't respond here.

This thread is about Prayer Man. On another thread, I answered Leslie's claim that Oswald could not have been standing on the steps because that would have invalidated his role as a lone-nut patsy. I explained how Oswald could have been framed before the assassination and still have been free to stand wherever he wanted during the assassination:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30101-rob-reiner-talks-about-two-oswalds/?do=findComment&comment=527243

If Leslie wants to continue that particular conversation, this is the appropriate place.

P.S. I'm aware that Austin is a more civilised city than Dallas. It could hardly be worse, could it?

Edited January 31 by Jeremy Bojczuk
corrected a typo