Carcano cartridges/bullets/...

[Jean Ceulemans]

Just found this interesting website that has a nice page on the different 6.5mm MC ammo that can be found :

https://cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/65-x-52-mannlicher-carcano/

QUOTE "In the 1950’s, the Italian Government decided to check and refurbish their WWII weapons inventory, many of them being still in use with the Italian Army and the Police. This is the reason that we find several obsolete WW1 calibers, such as the 6.5mm Carcano and the 8mm Breda were still being manufactured, or at least available from cartridge manufacturers’ catalogues some 10 years after the war had ended. Most of the weapons checked were in good serviceable condition, but in contrast the ammunition stocks were getting too old and unreliable. It was decided to order a goodly amount of 6,5mm Carcano rounds from the USA. Later on, when Italy joined NATO, their weapons had to be standardized to NATO specifications, so the old rifles and carbines were sold off as surplus and the cartridge contracts reduced and the quantities that had already arrived in Italy being sent back to the USA and Canada to be sold off as surplus."

That explains the US fabricating loads of MC ammo, and explains why there were a lot left later on... Posting this because I read somewhere that is was never really explained why the US was fabricating this ammo, the above makes some sense IMO

Also attaching a picture I posted earlier, some different 6.5 MC bullets (from plain lead to misc metals and alloys), an Italian friend send this 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Benjamin Cole]

Well, not certain all of that production was for the Italian army only. 

https://jfkfacts.org/the-origins-of-mannlicher-carcano-bullets/

From JFK Facts:

An intriguing tidbit from a faithful reader about the bullet that allegedly killed President Kennedy.

“Recently, I was reading the post CSI JFK: The Chain of Custody for “the magic bullet.” Bob Prudhomme posted a reference to “frangible range bullet for the Mannlicher-Carcano.” I didn’t know what that meant. I had to look it up. In doing so, I stumbled across a Web site about the ammunition (not the rifle).

 

Scroll down to the heading- “Non-Italian Military Rounds.”

 

It says:

 

 “Winchester Repeating Arms, of the U.S., manufactured 6.5×52 Carcano under a CIA [contract] during the early 50’s [emphasis added]. The intended use is not certain, but varies from being supplemental production for the Italian Military, use during the Greek Civil War, anti-communist efforts in Albania, etc. These rounds found their way into the surplus market in the early 1960’s. The rounds supposedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate John F. Kennedy were from this production.”

 

---30---

 

Interestingly, the 30.06 was the standard US military round pre-NATO, and the US military also switched to NATO-compatible bullets, and dumped a lot of 30.06 on surplus markets, including relatively rare steel-jacketed 30.06s. 

 

You can read and read and read about 6.5 bullets here:

 

https://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/ammo/history.html

 

This is part of the above website:

The JFK Cartridge

The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle were part of a batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il. They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid during the Greek civil war. They were commonly available on the surplus market during the early 1960's. They were packed in typical american 20 round boxes of white cardboard.

---30--

This might explain the CIA angle. They were fighting commies in Greece at the time. 

 

 

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

Thanks, very interesting

[Bill Fite]

Quote

An official, FBI memorandum dated December 2, 1963, with the subject line, “JFK Assassination,” described, “6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition used in the assassination…Western Cartridge Corporation…manufactured four million rounds of this ammunition for the United States Marine Corps during 1954…ammunition which does not fit and cannot be fired in any of the USMC weapons.

“This gives rise to the obvious speculation that it is a contract for ammunition placed by the CIA with Western under a USMC contract for concealment purposes.” All of the 6.5mm ammo and cartridge casings in the JFK case came from this particular batch in 1954, and here was the FBI officially pointing a finger at the CIA, since the alleged, “Oswald” ammunition was supplied from this apparent, CIA batch.

Furthermore, during the HSCA investigations in 1977 to 1979, CIA officials testified that they had acquired a dozen 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifles (which they apparently never used, except perhaps on the JFK operation) and a further one million rounds of ammo for Agency use through the U.S. Marine Corps, confirming the FBI’s 1963 suspicions. This was a very interesting development, indeed, shedding more light on Lee Oswald’s’ probable, true identity.

https://gunpowdermagazine.com/history-lesson-guns-of-the-jfk-assassination/

I've read this - about the Marines buying millions of rounds of MC ammo that they had no use for - somewhere else before.

[Jean Ceulemans]

For my documentation, anyone have a good picture of the headstamp on the actual CE141 ?  Or the empty 3 shells "found" in the TSBD ?  Should read "WCC" and a number (see bottom picture). I can not imagine they didn't make a picture of that headstamp.  Plenty of examples to be found, but the actual ones ??

I have to say the MC was capable of firing some weird bullets , even a short range version is out there (doesn't apply to JFK, just an interesting side-note as I'm easily distracted.... I know...) 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Benjamin Cole]

16 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

I've read this - about the Marines buying millions of rounds of MC ammo that they had no use for - somewhere else before.

Great stuff Bill. I remembered as much too, but could not remember where. 

 

[Gary Murr]

On 10/3/2023 at 8:52 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

The JFK Cartridge

The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle were part of a batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il. They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid during the Greek civil war. 

This statement, of course, is absolutely, unequivocally false ... and always has been. As is the equally false statement that the ammunition in question was manufactured by "Winchester Repeating Arms..."

[Jean Ceulemans]

Still looking for pictures of the headstamps on the 4 cartridges (3 shells and 1 live round) found in the TSBD (should read WCC 6 5 m/m), 

They did use Western Cartridge Co. 6.5 bullets in the tests for the Warren Comm. and described the live-round (CE141) in the chamber as "Western Cartridge Co. 6.5".   But somehow I can't find early pictures of the headstamps (of the live round and the 3 cartridges).  I must be looking in the wrong places again (it happens to me a lot laterly, must be age....)

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Gary Murr said:

This statement, of course, is absolutely, unequivocally false ... and always has been. As is the equally false statement that the ammunition in question was manufactured by "Winchester Repeating Arms..."

Gary Murr-

Please expand. 

I always want to know what is fact, and what is a guess, and what is outright false. 

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

Now... what the heck is it with those cartridges ?  I knnow about Fritz keeping 1 for some time (...), the pictures in situ questionable BUT now where can I find a picture of the headstamp of those 3 ?  The description isn't really helping : words  like "typical" "carcano" "made by" blablabla  BUT NO PICTURE of the details on the head of the cartridges ?  Even the live round... no headstamp ?    I mean, the headstamp is a key-factor in identification of bullets, cartridges etc   I really have been looking, but nope

I must be overlooking something somewhere... ? Any help or confirmation that those pictures do not exist ?  I know NARA has made some good picture of the live round, but I am talking pictures of the details in 1963  How is one to discuss the number of shots, etcccccccccccc when there is no clear link between those cartridges and the rifle  Are we simply to believe those 3 (+1) were made by Western Cartridge Co "because they say so and that's it" ?   Why discuss bullet-trajectories, lead analysis, etc if we don't even know who made those damned bullets ?

Even in the official nametag there is NO mention of Western Cartridge Co ?

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jean Ceulemans]

Other than a statement that they were made by WCC, there is nothing that describes in detail the headstamps.

The bullets made by WCC all have clear headstamps, why don't they mention it in the description, or add a detail-photo ?

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans