Walker, West 5th and the missing License Plate Photo

[Tony Krome]

39 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Tony I do not immediately recall a doc or reference to Greener being informed by DPD that early, on Nov 24 or 25, of a report of the rifle having been sighted in his shop. What is your reference or link on that? 

pp224 https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Turner.pdf

[Tony Krome]

ATTN Tom Scully

Thanks for looking regarding the marriage date, but Dial Ryder himself reveals in the very first part of his testimony, that he has been married to Peggie for FIVE years. This is 5 years before March 1964.

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

pp224 https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Turner.pdf

OK thanks I see it. He found the phone number of the Irving Sport Shop and called it and talked to Greener. That sounds to me like that call happened Tue Nov 26, since that is when Greener was in the shop. He asks Greener if the Oswald rifle could have been sighted-in at that shop. Greener says he and Dial had discussed the Oswald rifle in the news and they didn’t think it had been in their shop. OK. Greener knows nothing of the job ticket or an FBI visit of Mon Nov 25 at the time of this call. Dial has not told him, consistent with Greener’s later testimony that Thu Nov 28 reading a newspaper article was the first he learned of an Oswald job ticket in his shop.

Dial had not told Greener (even though working with him in the shop Tue and Wed), and it seems never did tell Greener, that FBI Horton had visited Dial Ryder Mon Nov 25 and Dial had shown the Oswald job ticket to Horton then—a job ticket cash payment which Dial had incidentally not run through the cash register, skimming the cash from that and probably other job tickets too since he did that one, when Greener had been away on vacation ca Nov 2-15.

I suspect that low-level cash skimming in the background was partly why Dial was not more forthcoming about telling Greener. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Tony Krome]

38 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

He found the phone number of the Irving Sport Shop and called it and talked to Greener. That sounds to me like that call happened Tue Nov 26, since that is when Greener was in the shop.

What Turner says is that he found Irving Sports, then Belin asks "What did you do?", Turner replies,"Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener"

That statement is consistant with directing his phone call to Greener's personal home phone number. Turner stated he called Greener that day (Sunday) or the next day (Monday), He didn't say two days later.

[Greg Doudna]

57 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

What Turner says is that he found Irving Sports, then Belin asks "What did you do?", Turner replies,"Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener"

That statement is consistant with directing his phone call to Greener's personal home phone number. Turner stated he called Greener that day (Sunday) or the next day (Monday), He didn't say two days later.

It doesn’t matter to me when the phone call was. Turner says the tip was of a sport shop in Irving and “I checked the crisscross and phone book and found there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard” and “Found a man that run it, Woody Greener…” I don’t know whether the “crisscross” gave business owners’ names. If it did then he could have gotten Greener’s name and looked up his home number and called him Sun Nov 24, OK. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Tony Krome]

18 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

It doesn’t matter to me when the phone call was. Turner says the tip was of a sport shop in Irving and “I checked the crisscross and phone book and found there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard” and “Found a man that run it, Woody Greener…” I don’t know whether the “crisscross” gave business owners’ names. If it did then he could have gotten Greener’s name and looked up his home number and called him Sun Nov 24, OK. 

Yes, he found Greener's number;

The tip described by Turner was not about a mount, it was about having an "Oswald" "rifle sighted", so I'd expect he would not have delayed calling Greener, especially with his phone number right in front of him. He was asked to investigate, and that's what he did.

 

[Tony Krome]

15 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

FBI Horton had visited Dial Ryder Mon Nov 25

Do you believe Horton was aware of the anonymous tip forwarded to Will Fritz's office on the 24th Nov, before he spoke to Ryder?

[Greg Doudna]

8 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Do you believe Horton was aware of the anonymous tip forwarded to Will Fritz's office on the 24th Nov, before he spoke to Ryder?

Wouldn’t know for sure but no reason to assume so. The FBI had received their own phoned-in anonymous tip on Sun Nov 24 which Horton is checking out on Mon the 25th.

[Tony Krome]

3 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

The FBI had received their own phoned-in anonymous tip on Sun Nov 24 which Horton is checking out on Mon the 25th.

What were the specifics of the anonymous tip that Horton had before he spoke to Ryder?

[Greg Doudna]

 

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

What were the specifics of the anonymous tip that Horton had before he spoke to Ryder?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11462#relPageId=203. 6:30 pm Sun Nov 24, anonymous male caller to Dallas FBI claimed he had been told just an hour earlier by a sack boy at an Irving supermarket that Oswald had had the rifle sighted-in at the Irving Sport Shop, 221 Irving Boulevard, on Thu Nov 21, 1963. (The FBI exhaustively interviewed employees at that supermarket to try to find the caller's alleged source and came up empty.) The next morning, Mon Nov 25, FBI agent Horton goes to Irving to the Sport Shop, finds the store closed and owner Greener out of the city for the day, and knocks on the door at the home residence of employee Dial Ryder, telling Ryder it was just a routine check of gun shops (did not tell Ryder of the specific tip). Ryder disclosed the Oswald job ticket to Horton at that point. Owner Greener will know nothing of this. Owner Greener first learns of the Oswald job ticket reading the newspaper on Thu Nov 28, and although Ryder on Nov 28 confirms to Greener the existence of the job ticket in Ryder's handwriting, Greener never is told by Ryder of the Horton FBI visit on Mon Nov 25. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

anonymous male caller

By the end of the afternoon of Sunday 24th Nov, two anonymous calls had been made from either different MALE callers or the same MALE caller.. One to WFAA (subsequently passed to the Office of Fritz) and one to the FBI.

Fundamentally, the anonymous information is the same, OSWALD, RIFLE SIGHTING, IRVING SPORTS and THURSDAY, 21st NOV. There is no mention of MOUNTS, or mention of EARLY NOVEMBER.

Both anonymous calls refer to the known day that OSWALD was in Irving, the 21st Nov.

In essence, Horton had the same information, that Detective Fay Turner (Fritz's office) had, before he spoke to Ryder on Monday 25th Nov.

This is the important part;

Horton meets with Ryder with only the information that Oswald may have had his SCOPED rifle SIGHTED at Irving Sports on the Thursday when Oswald was known to have been close by. Horton knew by then that the TSBD rifle found had a scope, and logically, to get that rifle sighted before targeting someone, made sense.

So the meeting with Ryder takes place. Ryder shows him the "Oswald" repair tag, talks about early November, looks at photos etc, all good. Horton leaves and writes up his report.

Horton never asked Ryder if a man came into the shop on Thursday 21st Nov to get a rifle sighted. Thursday was only a few days ago, fresh in Ryder's memory.

That's the reason Horton went there.

Mr. Ryder, did a man, any man, come into the shop to get a rifle sighted on Thursday?

The question was never asked.

The Thursday man could have been a shooter that weekend, for all Horton knew. Nothing had been officially been determined by that Monday.

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

14 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

By the end of the afternoon of Sunday 24th Nov, two anonymous calls had been made from either different MALE callers or the same MALE caller.. One to WFAA (subsequently passed to the Office of Fritz) and one to the FBI.

Fundamentally, the anonymous information is the same, OSWALD, RIFLE SIGHTING, IRVING SPORTS and THURSDAY, 21st NOV. There is no mention of MOUNTS, or mention of EARLY NOVEMBER.

Both anonymous calls refer to the known day that OSWALD was in Irving, the 21st Nov.

In essence, Horton had the same information, that Detective Fay Turner (Fritz's office) had, before he spoke to Ryder on Monday 25th Nov.

This is the important part;

Horton meets with Ryder with only the information that Oswald may have had his SCOPED rifle SIGHTED at Irving Sports on the Thursday when Oswald was known to have been close by. Horton knew by then that the TSBD rifle found had a scope, and logically, to get that rifle sighted before targeting someone, made sense.

So the meeting with Ryder takes place. Ryder shows him the "Oswald" repair tag, talks about early November, looks at photos etc, all good. Horton leaves and writes up his report.

Horton never asked Ryder if a man came into the shop on Thursday 21st Nov to get a rifle sighted. Thursday was only a few days ago, fresh in Ryder's memory.

That's the reason Horton went there.

Mr. Ryder, did a man, any man, come into the shop to get a rifle sighted on Thursday?

The question was never asked.

The Thursday man could have been a shooter that weekend, for all Horton knew. Nothing had been officially been determined by that Monday.

Interesting point Tony. I've always assumed the anonymous caller got the date mistaken for a single rifle sighting-in, either by accident or on purpose. You are suggesting the possibility that the anonymous caller's rifle sighting-in said to have occurred Nov 21 may not have been the same one as that of the Oswald job ticket (which I date for reasons explained to Nov 11). And you are right, in light of the content of the tip, any Nov 21 rifle sightings-in at that sport shop should have been checked. 

Indirectly there is partial information addressing this: owner Greener, who was very knowledgeable on rifles and would have been in the shop Nov 21, said he never saw Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano run through his shop any time he was there. That effectively excludes that the Mannlicher-Carcano was sighted-in there on Nov 21. However, if the tip arose from some different rifle and different person, it could have been missed. I agree, it should have been asked, good thinking.   

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Interesting point Tony. I've always assumed the anonymous caller got the date mistaken for a single rifle sighting-in, either by accident or on purpose. You are suggesting the possibility that the anonymous caller's rifle sighting-in said to have occurred Nov 21 may not have been the same one as that of the Oswald job ticket (which I date for reasons explained to Nov 11). And you are right, in light of the content of the tip, any Nov 21 rifle sightings-in at that sport shop should have been checked. 

Indirectly there is partial information addressing this: owner Greener, who was very knowledgeable on rifles and would have been in the shop Nov 21, said he never saw Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano run through his shop any time he was there. That effectively excludes that the Mannlicher-Carcano was sighted-in there on Nov 21. However, if the tip arose from some different rifle and different person, it could have been missed. I agree, it should have been asked, good thinking.   

Yes, the anonymous calls only relate to a rifle that required sighting on Thursday 21st.

The Tag only relates to a rifle that wasn't scoped, and was weeks prior. This rifle was freshly mounted and sighted at the time.

This eliminates Peggie Jo Ryder as the source of the anonymous calls. Ryder would not divulge a normal every day single rifle sighting to Peggie.

What Horton should have looked for on the Monday, was a docket for the sum total of $1.50

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Tony Krome

[Greg Doudna]

8 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Yes, the anonymous calls only relate to a rifle that required sighting on Thursday 21st.

The Tag only relates to a rifle that wasn't scoped, and was weeks prior. This rifle was freshly mounted and sighted at the time.

This eliminates Peggie Jo Ryder as the source of the anonymous calls. Ryder would not divulge a normal every day single rifle sighting to Peggie.

What Horton should have looked for on the Monday, was a docket for the sum total of $1.50

Excellent point. Any sighting-in on Thu Nov 21 at the Sport Shop, with both Greener and the secretary there in addition to Dial that day, would have been run through the cash register properly and should show up as a $1.50 charge in the cash register records. Also, if such charge(s) had been found, asking Greener, Dial, and the secretary in the next week would have a good chance of a recent memory of the person or persons of any such charge on Nov 21. Yet Horton on Nov 25 did not ask Dial about that, nor was there a return visit on Nov 26 the next day to ask Greener that when Greener was back. When Greener at a later point did check his cash register tapes to report to the FBI, it was all about whether he could find a $6.00 charge in the ca Nov 2-15 range of the Oswald job ticket.

In my paper on this I interpreted the discrepancy in the date of the tip from when Oswald actually was there as indication of a hearsay transmission mistake, and that is still what I think is the simplest or most likely explanation. But this other possibility you raise should have been checked, absolutely, you’re right!

Edited November 28, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

A wild thought Tony on mechanism of a mistake in the date in the tip being that specific. Somebody accurately tells somebody, “Oswald said he had this/that rifle sighted-in in Irving at the sport shop there.” The hearer or speaker does not know when but they do know Oswald was in Irving Nov 21, assumed that was when?