Mooney vs Alyea, and the two depository shooting sites

[Donald Willis]

Mooney vs Alyea, and the two depository shooting sites

To hear Deputy Luke Mooney and newsman Tom Alyea talk about the site of the shooting from the depository, you'd think that they were talking about two different locations.  And perhaps they were.  The Mooney version:  "I saw the expended shells on the floor [inside] a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons..." (11/23/63 report/Decker Exh 5323p528)

The Alyea version:  "At the time it was suspected that the assassin had stayed quite a time there.  There was a s[t]ack with a stack of chicken bones on it.  There was a Dr. Pepper bottle..." (12/19/63 statement)  [Crime Scene Det. Studebaker verifies the bones:  "One of the officers...later emptied the sack, leaving the chicken bones on the floor near the area where they were found... in the third aisle from the [east] side" (FBI interview 5/28/64)]  It appears that Alyea at first thought that the sniper shot from the window at which Bonnie Ray Williams--who claimed the chicken and the bottle--had sat eating lunch.  In fact, nowhere in Alyea's statement does he mention expended shells or hulls or a "nest" or "cubby hole", only a "gun".  As No True Flags Here has found, there is a photo of Alyea at a seventh-floor window, taken about the same time that the shells were found.

In "Facts and Photos"--Alyea's contribution to Connie Kritzberg's "Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window"--he excludes Mooney from the scene of the finding of the shooting location:  "When we arrived on the 6th floor and the location was found, there were no detectives or officers at the location..." (p44)  "You can totally disregard any statements made by Mooney.  He didn't arrive [at the "nest" location] until much later.  He neither saw the casings in their original location nor did he see the barricade until after Studebaker dismantled it, and this was over 30 minutes after the SN was found." (Alyea email to Willis 5/18/98)  Mooney sans "nest", Alyea sans shells.

And to that "no detectives or officers", Det. Studebaker adds, No chicken:
Commission Counsel Joseph Ball:  One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Mooney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes [in the SE corner, over near where you found the cartridges]; did you see anything like that?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. BALL. Was anything like that called to your attention?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is. (vp147)

So, no detectives, no officers, no chicken.  Alyea didn't see Mooney; Studebaker didn't see Mooney's chicken.

For his part, Mooney excludes Alyea from the finding of the nest".  He testifies that he was on his own:  "I went straight across to the SE corner... and I saw all those high boxes." (hearings v3p284)  But no Alyea.

Mooney and Alyea seem to have mutually exclusive versions of the discovery of the sniper's location.  Certainly, Alyea is most insistent that Mooney was very late getting to the "nest".  Whom to believe?  Both, I think, in part.  There is verification for Mooney's discovery of the empty shells--about the time that Mooney found the shells and, in turn, shouted out the window--as it was "approaching 1 o'clock" (p285)--there is a 12:59 call on the police radio for the Crime Lab to come to the TSBD. (CE 1974p41)

And there is verification that Alyea saw the "nest", though at the time he apparently did not know exactly what it was:  In "Pictures of the Pain" (p534), there's a frame blow-up from the film Alyea took that day of the "nest".  However, no shells are visible, and there's no picture of Capt. Fritz holding up the shells for Alyea to photograph, as, in later years, he insisted Fritz had done.  

And yet Mooney and Alyea each maintain that the other was not there.  Perhaps because there were two "theres" there.  Chief Criminal Deputy Allan Sweatt reported that Mooney did indeed holler out the window re "some spent cartridge cases" that had been found.  (Decker Exh 5323p532)  And, as noted, the 12:59 call on the radio verifies the find, if not the exact location.  Apart from the hard evidence of that call and the frame blow-up in Trask, there are only the words of Mooney and Alyea and others to go on that they saw the shells and/or the "nest" early on.  

So all we know for sure, then, is that Mooney found the shells, and that Alyea was at least on the right floor about the time that the "nest" was found.  But, as I say, Alyea did not, initially, even mention shells, and seemed to put the place "where [the assassin] fired" outside the "nest", a few windows away from the end window.  And as No True Flags Here has found, there's a photo of Alyea at a 7th-floor window about the time that the shells were found.  Mooney:  "At that time [just before he found the shells], some news reporter... was coming up with a camera... So I went back down... to the sixth floor".(p284)

One way to reconcile the Mooney and Alyea stories, then, is to conclude that there were two separate discoveries (apart from that of the rifle) that afternoon--the shells in one place, the "nest" in another.  Mooney in one place, Alyea in another... We know that Mooney found the shells.  At the same time, Alyea is adamant that he, Mooney, got to the "nest" late.  I believe that, on their respective points here, they're both right.  How could that be?  As suggested by Alyea's statement above, the shells were not in the "nest" when he was on the floor at the rifle find.  Mooney had found them earlier, and perhaps elsewhere.  Alyea, then, would have seen the "nest"--but empty--long before Mooney did.  However, Mooney seems to have seen the shells long before Alyea did, if the latter saw them at all.  In the end, both men said that they saw the shells in the "nest", but each one--at least according to the other's version--must have "placed" them there retroactively.

Either that or the shells were simply gone by the time that Alyea got back down to the sixth floor.  But--according to the Homicide recap of the scene--they should still have been there:  "Someone called for Capt. Fritz, and he left Dets. Montgomery and Johnson to stay with the hulls... Someone said the gun had been found." (Sims/Boyd report p3)  And Alyea, we know, was there when the gun was found.  In the original Alyea version, Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Montgomery, and Johnson are staying with hulls that don't seem to have been there.  

Mooney and the shells in one place, Alyea and the "nest" in another.

[Pat Speer]

I have thought about this as well. But there's a problem. Alyea filmed the boxes in the sniper's nest described by Mooney, as well as Fritz bending over to pick up shells photographed by Studebaker. So the simplest explanation is that Alyea recalled the lunch bag and drink etc that he filmed two windows over, as being by the sniper's nest. And he wasn't alone. several witnesses said they saw chicken bones on a box by the nest. This confused me until I realized I was hooked on the idea everyone came upon the nest from the north, when they didn't. Some walked along the front windows, saw chicken bones, and then, a few feet later, the wall of boxes surrounding the so-called sniper's nest. 

[Donald Willis]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I have thought about this as well. But there's a problem. Alyea filmed the boxes in the sniper's nest described by Mooney, as well as Fritz bending over to pick up shells photographed by Studebaker.

Then that would tally with what Alyea wrote about the photos of the shells being photographed later than circa 1:15.  The Sims/Boyd report has Fritz watching Lt. Day take pictures of the hulls.  But Alyea has Fritz, much later, giving the shells to Studebaker to photograph.  That would account for Alyea not having seen anything of the shells circa 1:20, when he photographed the rifle find.  Do you know where I can see the Studebaker scene?

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

 

So the simplest explanation is that Alyea recalled the lunch bag and drink etc that he filmed two windows over, as being by the sniper's nest. And he wasn't alone. several witnesses said they saw chicken bones on a box by the nest. This confused me until I realized I was hooked on the idea everyone came upon the nest from the north, when they didn't. Some walked along the front windows, saw chicken bones, and then, a few feet later, the wall of boxes surrounding the so-called sniper's nest. 

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

Wasn't it Alyea who said at some point that the chicken bones were found on the fifth floor? Pretty sure it was. I think he said that in an interview that the Sixth Floor Museum was doing if I remember correctly.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Donald Willis said:

Then that would tally with what Alyea wrote about the photos of the shells being photographed later than circa 1:15.  The Sims/Boyd report has Fritz watching Lt. Day take pictures of the hulls.  But Alyea has Fritz, much later, giving the shells to Studebaker to photograph.  That would account for Alyea not having seen anything of the shells circa 1:20, when he photographed the rifle find.  Do you know where I can see the Studebaker scene?

 

I meant the shells photographed by Studebaker...later.

Alyea filmed the boxes before Day and Studebaker's arrival, and filmed Fritz crouched down while picking up a shell and looking at it, almost certainly before their arrival as well. 

[Pat Speer]

57 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Wasn't it Alyea who said at some point that the chicken bones were found on the fifth floor? Pretty sure it was. I think he said that in an interview that the Sixth Floor Museum was doing if I remember correctly.

Yes, he said some surprising things. As I recall he said a lot of things that suggested a conspiracy, but insisted there was no conspiracy other than to save the DPD some embarrassment. Or something like that. 

[Larry Hancock]

As Pat said, Alyea said some remarkable things - I interviewed him in person at length and corresponded with him over some years.  He put a lot of material into three newsletters he did, accusing conspiracy types of lies and misrepresentation while repeatedly talking about how the DPD had itself lied in testimony as related to evidence handling, especially in regard to the crime scene photos of the window area and boxes which he said were all faked on Saturday (and lied about in reports and under oath) because the ones done on Friday had been done so poorly.

As Pat says, it was a remarkable, bipolar position, with has him gutting the DPD on all its crime scene work but then defending it to the death on all its conclusions.  My impression was that he might have combined some of the things he saw on the fifth and sixth floor in his memories,  unintentionally - but he was adamant about the hulls being picked up and then thrown down for him to film...raising the question of whether the official photos of them had been done before or after that happened but certainly raising even more questions about crime scene practices.

[Chris Davidson]

FWIW:

https://manuscriptservice.com/SN/index.htm#MENU

[Donald Willis]

12 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Wasn't it Alyea who said at some point that the chicken bones were found on the fifth floor? Pretty sure it was. I think he said that in an interview that the Sixth Floor Museum was doing if I remember correctly.

I know that he said that they were definitely not found on the sixth floor.

[Donald Willis]

17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I meant the shells photographed by Studebaker...later.

Alyea filmed the boxes before Day and Studebaker's arrival, and filmed Fritz crouched down while picking up a shell and looking at it, almost certainly before their arrival as well. 

Does that piece of film survive?   Are you sure it wasn't just  the shell popped out of the rifle?

[Donald Willis]

8 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

As Pat said, Alyea said some remarkable things - I interviewed him in person at length and corresponded with him over some years.  He put a lot of material into three newsletters he did, accusing conspiracy types of lies and misrepresentation while repeatedly talking about how the DPD had itself lied in testimony as related to evidence handling, especially in regard to the crime scene photos of the window area and boxes which he said were all faked on Saturday (and lied about in reports and under oath) because the ones done on Friday had been done so poorly.

As Pat says, it was a remarkable, bipolar position, with has him gutting the DPD on all its crime scene work but then defending it to the death on all its conclusions.  My impression was that he might have combined some of the things he saw on the fifth and sixth floor in his memories,  unintentionally - but he was adamant about the hulls being picked up and then thrown down for him to film...raising the question of whether the official photos of them had been done before or after that happened but certainly raising even more questions about crime scene practices.

Then there's Deputy Faulkner reporting that the shells had been "given" to Fritz.  

 

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

Some real chronology problems here, is it possible the crime scene photos had been taken and the shells given to Fritz for him to throw down later for Alyea and Alyea didn't really see them in place himself before Fritz then threw them down for him to video?   Did that just confuse Alyea?    Certainly bad practice on Fritz either way.  But  of course then Fritz could not have picked them up as Alyea related....of course if Fritz could get to them to pick them up then why didn't Alyea just shoot that angle?

Or is it as simple that Alyea is right about everything and the Deputy related picking them up and giving them to Fritz after Alyea had taken the video?

 

 

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Some real chronology problems here, is it possible the crime scene photos had been taken and the shells given to Fritz for him to throw down later for Alyea and Alyea didn't really see them in place himself before Fritz then threw them down for him to video?   Did that just confuse Alyea?    Certainly bad practice on Fritz either way.  But  of course then Fritz could not have picked them up as Alyea related....of course if Fritz could get to them to pick them up then why didn't Alyea just shoot that angle?

Or is it as simple that Alyea is right about everything and the Deputy related picking them up and giving them to Fritz after Alyea had taken the video?

 

 

Alyea began filming well before the arrival of Day and Studebaker. His film shows the sniper's nest boxes in their original location, not after being dusted and re-arranged as in the evidence photos, and not as re-stacked in the re-enactment photos days later. 

He also claimed he saw Fritz pick up the shells. Now, Fritz denied this, and I didn't know who to believe. But 10-12 years ago I was watching a show which included a snippet of the Alyea film, which was cropped differently, or not at all. where you could see more at the bottom of the image. And it showed Fritz conferring with someone while crouched down by where the western-most shell was later photographed, and picking something up and inspecting it. Now, I can't swear it is a shell. But he's crouched right by where the shell was later photographed. And it confirms Alyea's recollection he saw Fritz pick up a shell, if not precisely confirming his claim Fritz showed it to him personally. 

P.S. I had a link to the video showing this on my website, but the video has since been taken down. As one of the stills I have shows the History Channel logo, this would have been a History Channel program from 10-12 years ago. 

P.P.S. After the arrival of the crime scene unit, and around the time of the discovery of the rifle, Day picked up the shells and gave them to Sims, Fritz's assistant. Alyea did not film this, perhaps because he was on the other side of the building filming the search for the rifle. 

Edited January 15 by Pat Speer

[Larry Hancock]

Pat, the story Alyea told me was that he was in the area of the boxes and Fritz told him the cartridges were there on the floor by the window but the stacking of the boxes prevented Alyea from taking footage.....he complained and said that Fritz picked up all the cartridges, held them so that he could film them and then tossed them back down.  He may have changed those remarks at times but I'm pretty sure that is also what he had in his three newsletters...which he happily sold me copies of when we talked.

[Pat Speer]

22 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Pat, the story Alyea told me was that he was in the area of the boxes and Fritz told him the cartridges were there on the floor by the window but the stacking of the boxes prevented Alyea from taking footage.....he complained and said that Fritz picked up all the cartridges, held them so that he could film them and then tossed them back down.  He may have changed those remarks at times but I'm pretty sure that is also what he had in his three newsletters...which he happily sold me copies of when we talked.

Yes, the footage shows Fritz crouched down by where the third shell was photographed...later. So...it could be that Fritz picked up all the shells and then threw them down, and that one remained in that area, and the other two rolled away towards the window. Either that or that Alyea was simply wrong about Fritz's picking up all the shells, as he only picked up one.