Why murder Oswald?

[Matt Cloud]

6 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Moynahan's reaction was similar, tho not identical, to Salandria's reaction that weekend.  Except Salandria didn't see the murder of Oswald as leading to a cloud of suspicion that would be difficult to dispel. He saw it. and what happened afterwards as a confirmation of government guilt in the murder. Salandria told his brother in law that if Oswald doesn't survive the weekend we'll know what happened.

He later found out about the messages sent from the White House Situation Room to the planes coming back to DC. They were referred to by both Theodore White and Pierre Salinger in their books.

In the Making of the President 1964, White said the Presidential party on AF1 "...learned there was no conspiracy, learned of the identity of Oswald and his arrest".'

Salandria tried to get the help of both writers in locating the messages and he contacted every fed agency he could think of that might have a record of them.  To no avail.  He did get confirmation in 1993 of the content of the message to AF1 from Robert Manning, a Kennedy official who was on the plane.

Salandria's conclusion, spelled out in his False Mystery speech at the 1998 CPA convention deserves quoting.

"The government could not have known at that time that Oswald was the killer and there was no conspiracy"....They had sent the message to AF1 "before there was any evidence against him and while there was overwhelmingly convincing evidence of a conspiracy 

What they [the passengers on the plane] had heard, smelled, and seen in Dealey Plaza was of no consequence.  The patsy had been selected, and the conclusion of a conspiracy had been ruled out.  Bundy [who was running the Situation Room at the time] was indirectly instructing the Presidential party and the cabinet that he was speaking for the killers....what they had observed in Dealey Plaza was merely evidence, and that the needs of the State rose above evidence....They were circuitously informed that the assassination had been committed by a level of US power that was above and beyond punishment." 

Kennedy's battles with parts of his own government were no secret in Washington at the time. Many did not buy the Oswald story.  Salandria and Moynahan help us understand why their was so little push back against it, why the coverup went so smoothly despite many obvious bumps in the road.

 

 

 

You're not reading Moynihan between the lines, which is always necessary. 

[Roger Odisio]

2 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

You're not reading Moynihan between the lines, which is always necessary. 

Instruct me, Matt.  And while you're at it could you compare Salandria's take with Moynihan's?

[Matt Cloud]

6 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Instruct me, Matt.  And while you're at it could you compare Salandria's take with Moynihan's?

Well, first with Moynihan.  I didn't introduce Salandria.  So is Moynihan saying that because he was so street savvy that he alone among the admin officials was able to spot the danger Oswald was in?  That's an interpretation, to be sure, but it is taking him at face value.  A deeper interpretation might allow at least for the question why, really, was Moynihan so intuitive on this matter, as he would be on so many maters throughout the Cold War.  Who is Bob Macy, the head of the Civil Service, that Moynihan goes around with, to Andrews saying "We must get hold of Oswald."  Sounds innocuous enough.   But did Macy say have budgetary authority over covert operations, and income of foreign persons to the US under that authority, sensitive immigration matters, in the late 1950s?  If so, that might add more texture to the face-value interpretation.

 

 

[Colm Byrne]

Oswald had to be killed because he could prove his innocence if alive

[Roger Odisio]

19 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

4. OK, let's say the CIA had LHO rubbed out. Why?

5. Because on the stand, the lone-wolf LHO would be able to prove his innocence, or at least raise reasonable doubts?  Does that threaten the CIA somehow? I do not see how. 

RO:  The killers' story was Oswald did it alone, which was not only false but would be easy to contradict at a trial.  For example the first thing a lawyer for Oswald would do is gather information to verify his alibi. NBC would not be able to hide the Darnell and Weigman films.

If Oswald lived there would be trial with the whole world watching. If they killed him, they could concoct an investigation they could control. Easy choice wasn't it? 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

4. OK, let's say the CIA had LHO rubbed out. Why?

5. Because on the stand, the lone-wolf LHO would be able to prove his innocence, or at least raise reasonable doubts?  Does that threaten the CIA somehow? I do not see how. 

RO:  The killers' story was Oswald did it alone, which was not only false but would be easy to contradict at a trial.  For example the first thing a lawyer for Oswald would do is gather information to verify his alibi. NBC would not be able to hide the Darnell and Weigman films.

If Oswald lived there would be trial with the whole world watching. If they killed him, they could concoct an investigation they could control. Easy choice wasn't it? 

I confess to not knowing what are the Darnell and Weigman films, and what they reveal. 

Please elaborate. 

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I confess to not knowing what are the Darnell and Weigman films, and what they reveal.

The Darnell and Wegman films were taken by the eponymous photographers in the motorcade several cars in back of the presidential limo. Each has momentary views of the steps to the entrance of the Texas School Book Depository. Oswald claimed during his interrogation that he went outside “to watch the presidential parade”. I think that came from Fritz’s notes. The Darnell and Wegman films appear to have captured an image of an unidentified person, presumably male on the landing just in front of the doors to the TSBD. The figure is in shadow and the publicly available versions of the film do not have enough resolution to identify it definitively as a human and whether it could be Oswald. This figure has been labelled “Prayerman” because the figure’s arms appear to be in prayer possibly as a result of having a Coke in his hand. Oswald is known to have bought a Coke at lunchtime. Whether it was before lunch (more sensible) or after the assassination (less sensible) is in dispute.

Edited May 23 by Kevin Balch

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

The Darnell and Wegman films were taken by the eponymous photographers in the motorcade several cars in back of the presidential limo. Each has momentary views of the steps to the entrance of the Texas School Book Depository. Oswald claimed during his interrogation that he went outside “to watch the presidential parade”. I think that came from Fritz’s notes. The Darnell and Wegman films appear to have captured an image of an unidentified person, presumably male on the landing just in front of the doors to the TSBD. The figure is in shadow and the publicly available versions of the film do not have enough resolution to identify it definitively as a human and whether it could be Oswald. This figure has been labelled “Prayerman” because the figure’s arms appear to be in prayer possibly as a result of having a Coke in his hand. Oswald is known to have bought a Coke at lunchtime. Whether it was before lunch (more sensible) or after the assassination (less sensible) is in dispute.

Thanks for your reply. You have reminded me, that I have read in this forum the sometimes florid arguments regarding Prayerman. 

For me, the figure in the films, at least as seen today, is not identifiable.  AFAIK, no other still camera shots captured LHO in the aftermath of the JFKA. 

No one on the TSBD steps ever said they saw LHO. 

I would not say I have proof of my view. I feel comfortable in saying that "when shots rang out, LHO was invisible." 

Perhaps LHO was totally an unwitting patsy, never worked a day for any intel agency, and was an earnest communist. Then he was set up, and then he was killed. 

My hunch tells me LHO was a low-level intel asset (of which there were thousands in the US at the time, due to the Cuba situation), and so LHO quickly realized he had been set up, and then went home to get his gun.

Even a low-level asset involved in the JFKA was too much for the CIA to tolerate, so LHO was neutralized. 

Larry Hancock evidently has a different take, and he is a thorough researcher. I suspect even Hancock will devise scenario in which LHO was cooperating (unwittingly) with the true assassins. 

All IMHO. 

 

 

[Roger Odisio]

12 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

The Darnell and Wegman films were taken by the eponymous photographers in the motorcade several cars in back of the presidential limo. Each has momentary views of the steps to the entrance of the Texas School Book Depository. Oswald claimed during his interrogation that he went outside “to watch the presidential parade”. I think that came from Fritz’s notes. The Darnell and Wegman films appear to have captured an image of an unidentified person, presumably male on the landing just in front of the doors to the TSBD. The figure is in shadow and the publicly available versions of the film do not have enough resolution to identify it definitively as a human and whether it could be Oswald. This figure has been labelled “Prayerman” because the figure’s arms appear to be in prayer possibly as a result of having a Coke in his hand. Oswald is known to have bought a Coke at lunchtime. Whether it was before lunch (more sensible) or after the assassination (less sensible) is in dispute.

Right you are, Kevin.  Except the quote was from the notes of James Hosty of the FBI, taken at Oswald's first interrogation a couple of hours after the murder.

As to the coke, Bart Kamp, the World's Foremost Authority on Oswald's Interrogations wrote:  "Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22nd of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine [on the second floor] *to have with his lunch*. (emphasis added)  (Prayerman, More than a Fuzzy Picture, p. 204)

So, yes, it would have made no sense for Oswald to go *up* the steps to get a coke in the confusion following the murder.  When would he have drunk it? 

The WC's story that Oswald got the coke after he murdered Kennedy and came *down* the steps was a fabrication designed to place Oswald somewhere in the building. They had no witnesses who could place him on the 6th floor. It was the next best thing.

In fact Dorothy Garner showed the WC story was a lie.  She remained on the 4th floor after Adams and Styles went down the steps, and was still there when Truly and a cop reached her.  No Oswald.

The WC ignored both Garner and Styles for obvious reasons. There exists no formal interview of them like the WC conducted with Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady. (Btw, the stenotapes of those three interviews, the best evidence of what was said, have gone missing from NARA) Instead they isolated Adams without corroboration and concentrated on trying to prove she was mistaken about when she and Styles went down the steps, leaving time for Oswald.

Aside to Ben.  I'm astonished you don't know the importance of the Darnell and Weigman films. I've babbled about them incessantly ever since I emailed NARA, almost two years ago at staff's suggestion, to ask that they be included in the JFK Records Collection as an obvious JFKA record.  Have you stopped reading me?

The two films are highlighted in several of the filings Bill and Larry have made in the MFF Lawsuit, and they are on the list of things Bill and Larry will ask for should they get that far.

In recent years, several prominent researchers, Greg Parker among them, have asked NBC, a "news" organization for access to the film originals.  They have been rebuffed each time.  In doing so, NBC has not tried to claim the films aren't relevant.

Their comical responses boil down to this.  Obviously the films contain evidence of what happened in the immediate aftermath of the murder (that was made clear to them with each request.) But they we cannot let anyone see this evidence in order to protect it from harm.  IOW, we must protect the films in perpetuity so that the evidence can *not* be seen forever.

NBC is taking a chance that some bright lawyer might point out that, with an affiliate that has a FCC license to provide all news in the public interest, they are violating that license if not the very purpose of being a "news" organization, by withholding the films.  (Are there any lawyers here who have dealt with the FCC and would like to take that case?)

Ask yourself this. Why would they do that?  Why would they deny access to the film originals unless they knew what they showed?

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Right you are, Kevin.  Except the quote was from the notes of James Hosty of the FBI, taken at Oswald's first interrogation a couple of hours after the murder.

As to the coke, Bart Kamp, the World's Foremost Authority on Oswald's Interrogations wrote:  "Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22nd of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine [on the second floor] *to have with his lunch*. (emphasis added)  (Prayerman, More than a Fuzzy Picture, p. 204)

So, yes, it would have made no sense for Oswald to go *up* the steps to get a coke in the confusion following the murder.  When would he have drunk it? 

The WC's story that Oswald got the coke after he murdered Kennedy and came *down* the steps was a fabrication designed to place Oswald somewhere in the building. They had no witnesses who could place him on the 6th floor. It was the next best thing.

In fact Dorothy Garner showed the WC story was a lie.  She remained on the 4th floor after Adams and Styles went down the steps, and was still there when Truly and a cop reached her.  No Oswald.

The WC ignored both Garner and Styles for obvious reasons. There exists no formal interview of them like the WC conducted with Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady. (Btw, the stenotapes of those three interviews, the best evidence of what was said, have gone missing from NARA) Instead they isolated Adams without corroboration and concentrated on trying to prove she was mistaken about when she and Styles went down the steps, leaving time for Oswald.

Aside to Ben.  I'm astonished you don't know the importance of the Darnell and Weigman films. I've babbled about them incessantly ever since I emailed NARA, almost two years ago at staff's suggestion, to ask that they be included in the JFK Records Collection as an obvious JFKA record.  Have you stopped reading me?

The two films are highlighted in several of the filings Bill and Larry have made in the MFF Lawsuit, and they are on the list of things Bill and Larry will ask for should they get that far.

In recent years, several prominent researchers, Greg Parker among them, have asked NBC, a "news" organization for access to the film originals.  They have been rebuffed each time.  In doing so, NBC has not tried to claim the films aren't relevant.

Their comical responses boil down to this.  Obviously the films contain evidence of what happened in the immediate aftermath of the murder (that was made clear to them with each request.) But they we cannot let anyone see this evidence in order to protect it from harm.  IOW, we must protect the films in perpetuity so that the evidence can *not* be seen forever.

NBC is taking a chance that some bright lawyer might point out that, with an affiliate that has a FCC license to provide all news in the public interest, they are violating that license if not the very purpose of being a "news" organization, by withholding the films.  (Are there any lawyers here who have dealt with the FCC and would like to take that case?)

Ask yourself this. Why would they do that?  Why would they deny access to the film originals unless they knew what they showed?

RO-

My apologies for not knowing much about the Darnell and Weigman films. Of course, I believe in making public anything to do with the JFKA, and total 100% compliance with the JFK Records Act (now being murdered by the present administration). 

As you know, the JFKA literature is vast, and sometimes I just forget portions of it. I applaud your efforts to unveil the films and every other aspect of the JFKA. 

I do ask this question: I contend it is indisputable that someone fired a rifle in the direction of JFK from TSBD6, on 11/22. There are numerous eyewitness to that, including Amos Euins, who made a contemporary report to a Dallas police officer, within moments, and was overheard by a Dallas newsman. 

OK...how did the 11/22 TSBD6 gunsel, whoever it was, depart TSBD6 without being seen? Obviously, they did depart TSBD6 without being seen. So, it could have been LHO, who knew the layout of the building well. Pat Speer suggests LHO, or other party, might have just taken the elevator down. 

My guess is that after firing one or more shots, LHO made a beeline for the stairwell, dropping the rifle off in the pre-made cubbyhole en route. He was down the stairs before other witnesses were in place. 

All IMHO, as usual. 

 

Edited May 24 by Benjamin Cole