Do photos show Felipe Vidal Santiago as the Dark-Complected Man? And Roy Hargraves as the Umbrella Man?

[Matthew Koch]

23 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

Oh you mean Veciana?  Right .  Or is it Roger Stone?

I don't think so

These are the Operation Naval Guerrilla Cubans, I don't think Veciana was involved with them they were working with RFK at JM/Wave and he was working with the Pentagon. 

[Robert Morrow]

24 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

Oh you mean Veciana?  Right .  Or is it Roger Stone?

Nope. My source is not Antonio Veciana who I met in 2013. Nor is it Roger Stone, who I first met in summer 2013 just before I met Antonio Veciana down in Miami.

My source has very good ties to the inner circles of old guard anti-Castro Cuban community. He specifically said Tosh Plumlee is NOT in that famous photo.

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

I don't think so

These are the Operation Naval Guerrilla Cubans, I don't think Veciana was involved with them they were working with RFK at JM/Wave and he was working with the Pentagon. 

... that was a question that could only be answered by Robert Morrow. 

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, Robert Morrow said:

Nope. My source is not Antonio Veciana who I met in 2013. Nor is it Roger Stone, who I first met in summer 2013 just before I met Antonio Veciana down in Miami.

My source has very good ties to the inner circles of old guard anti-Castro Cuban community. He specifically said Tosh Plumlee is NOT in that famous photo.

Ah ...

[Bill Simpich]

I heard a call on this thread to focus on Felipe Vidal Santiago as the Dark Complected Man.

Does anyone know a photoanalyst who could make a definite call?  Or another method of ruling it in or out.

One of the frustrating things in an "open case" like JFK is that lines of evidence are not pursued to a final conclusion.

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, Bill Simpich said:

I heard a call on this thread to focus on Felipe Vidal Santiago as the Dark Complected Man.

Does anyone know a photoanalyst who could make a definite call?  Or another method of ruling it in or out.

One of the frustrating things in an "open case" like JFK is that lines of evidence are not pursued to a final conclusion.

That tautology is indeed the sine qua non of open cases.

[Bill Simpich]

That is the problem.  An investigation should lead somewhere.   If you ask a question, you should try your best to answer it.    If you don't have enough information, you should say so.

I think there is a lot of information to determine if Felipe Vidal Santiago is the Dark-Complected Man.

This question - and other questions like it - is not a parlor game.

The problem is a lack of will.

Edited June 12 by Bill Simpich

[Bill Simpich]

Whether or not Roy Hargraves is the Umbrella Man, he claimed to be at Dealey Plaza that day.

I think we should consider the possibility that Vidal and Hargraves were there to blow up the underpass if the shots didn't kill JFK. 

Hargraves repeated that story more than once - maybe because he wanted to get that story out and bask in glory with his pals - and then buried it in a bodyguard of lies.

If we could prove that Vidal was the Dark Complected Man - we could agree to disagree about the Umbrella Man -and we would crack an important part of this case.

From Ronald Ecker:  

The late Roy Hargraves told researcher Noel Twyman in a 2001 interview that Mitch WerBell supplied silencers used in the JFK assassination. Hargraves was an explosives expert and member of Hemming's Interpen group. Hargraves said that he was in Dallas on November 22, 1963 as part of a four-man support team led by anti-Castro activist Felipe Vidal Santiago. (Vidal was captured on a mission into Cuba in 1964 and executed.) The team, according to Hargraves, was ordered to Dallas by CIA operative William Bishop, who could have got his orders from CIA's JMWAVE base in Miami...

Source:  Larry Hancock, Someone Would Have Talked: What We Know about the JFK Assassination after 40 Years (Southlake, Texas: JFK Lancer Productions and Publications), pp. 290-292.   I think this is the 2010 version.

Here's Larry Hancock on the role of Vidal and Hargraves in Tipping Point, Part 5: 

Beyond David Morales and John Rosselli, those who either admitted to or were specifically named as being involved were in minor roles: John Martino as a courier, carrying messages and money between Miami, New Orleans and Dallas. Felipe Vidal also as a courier, and both Vidal and Roy Hargraves as support personnel, performing field communications and overwatch - and with Hargraves having built an explosive device that was not actually needed in the attack. 

(My Note:  Hargraves claimed planting a bomb in 1962 on a commercial boat trading with Cuba that failed to detonate; a source reported that "Vidal's friend Hargraves" was hired to plant a firebomb later in 1962; Hargraves was convicted for blowing up an "SDS peace center" office in Long Beach in 1968; the same year, Hargraves was jailed on charges of bombing right wingers and the Black Panthers with the intent to promote strife between these groups.

Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason, The Assassination of John F. Kennedy, 1997, "Personal Interviews with Roy Hargraves", the following synopsis is reconstructed from a partial transcript made available by Noel Twyman; the entire interview session was taped but a transcript was prepared for only a portion of the many hours of dialogue involved in the session. Appendix A, Tape 2, Side A, 2001 Interview http://larry-hancock.com/roy_hargraves_interview.pdf

Hargraves related to Hemming that he and Vidal had gone to Dallas but that he had no prior knowledge of a conspiracy, asserting that he had no idea of what was going to happen in Dallas and was simply taken there to perform a specific job (building a bomb). Hargraves also repeatedly stressed that neither he nor Vidal were involved in the actual murder. He remained vague on Vidal's role however, in the first phase of the interviews, he stated that he and Vidal were on Elm Street and Vidal acted as a signal man; in the second round of interviews he became much more circumspect about Vidal and their being on Elm Street at the time of the shooting.

Photographs do show two men (described respectively in JFK assassination literature as the Umbrella Man and the Dark Complected Man) who appear quite similar to Roy Hargraves and Felipe Vidal standing beside each other on Elm Street, then sitting quite close together before they walk away in different directions. One of them wearing a beret similar in appearance to berets seen in other photographs of Vidal and to many appears to have some sort of radio in his back pocket. It may be that Hargraves was not aware of those photographs in the first phase of the interview.

Hargraves was more specific about his own role. Being experienced with explosives (it can be confirmed that Hargraves was an explosives specialist; in later years after he and Hemming had moved to Los Angeles he built bombs which were used against the Black Panthers) he was to build an improvised explosive device (a car bomb). The bomb was placed in a car on the access ramp from Main Street to the Stemmons freeway (the route to JFK's scheduled speech at the Trade Mart), but was not used given the success of the rifle attack on Elm Street. Photographs do show a number of vehicles parked in the area described by Hargraves...

Unfortunately it can be shown that Hargraves was also passing along a great deal of misinformation - and intentional disinformation - in his conversations with Twyman – something not unexpected. Even Gerry Hemming's brother was open about the fact that Hemming, and presumably Hargraves, intentionally convoluted their stories so extensively that anyone dealing with them as potential suspects would simply give up and walk away confused. There is absolutely no doubt that Hargraves' information needs to be approached with great caution, considering only that which has some level of corroboration."

 

Edited June 12 by Bill Simpich

[Matt Cloud]

6 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

That is the problem.  An investigation should lead somewhere.   If you ask a question, you should try your best to answer it.    If you don't have enough information, you should say so.

I think there is a lot of information to determine if Felipe Vidal Santiago is the Dark-Complected Man.

This question - and other questions like it - is not a parlor game.

The problem is a lack of will.

That's definitely not my problem.

[Matt Cloud]

6 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

Whether or not Roy Hargraves is the Umbrella Man, he claimed to be at Dealey Plaza that day.

I think we should consider the possibility that Vidal and Hargraves were there to blow up the underpass if the shots didn't kill JFK. 

Hargraves repeated that story more than once - maybe because he wanted to get that story out and bask in glory with his pals - and then buried it in a bodyguard of lies.

If we could prove that Vidal was the Dark Complected Man - we could agree to disagree about the Umbrella Man -and we would crack an important part of this case.

From Ronald Ecker:  

The late Roy Hargraves told researcher Noel Twyman in a 2001 interview that Mitch WerBell supplied silencers used in the JFK assassination. Hargraves was an explosives expert and member of Hemming's Interpen group. Hargraves said that he was in Dallas on November 22, 1963 as part of a four-man support team led by anti-Castro activist Felipe Vidal Santiago. (Vidal was captured on a mission into Cuba in 1964 and executed.) The team, according to Hargraves, was ordered to Dallas by CIA operative William Bishop, who could have got his orders from CIA's JMWAVE base in Miami...

Source:  Larry Hancock, Someone Would Have Talked: What We Know about the JFK Assassination after 40 Years (Southlake, Texas: JFK Lancer Productions and Publications), pp. 290-292.   I think this is the 2010 version.

Here's Larry Hancock on the role of Vidal and Hargraves in Tipping Point, Part 5: 

Beyond David Morales and John Rosselli, those who either admitted to or were specifically named as being involved were in minor roles: John Martino as a courier, carrying messages and money between Miami, New Orleans and Dallas. Felipe Vidal also as a courier, and both Vidal and Roy Hargraves as support personnel, performing field communications and overwatch - and with Hargraves having built an explosive device that was not actually needed in the attack. 

(My Note:  Hargraves claimed planting a bomb in 1962 on a commercial boat trading with Cuba that failed to detonate; a source reported that "Vidal's friend Hargraves" was hired to plant a firebomb later in 1962; Hargraves was convicted for blowing up an "SDS peace center" office in Long Beach in 1968; the same year, Hargraves was jailed on charges of bombing right wingers and the Black Panthers with the intent to promote strife between these groups.

Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason, The Assassination of John F. Kennedy, 1997, "Personal Interviews with Roy Hargraves", the following synopsis is reconstructed from a partial transcript made available by Noel Twyman; the entire interview session was taped but a transcript was prepared for only a portion of the many hours of dialogue involved in the session. Appendix A, Tape 2, Side A, 2001 Interview http://larry-hancock.com/roy_hargraves_interview.pdf

Hargraves related to Hemming that he and Vidal had gone to Dallas but that he had no prior knowledge of a conspiracy, asserting that he had no idea of what was going to happen in Dallas and was simply taken there to perform a specific job (building a bomb). Hargraves also repeatedly stressed that neither he nor Vidal were involved in the actual murder. He remained vague on Vidal's role however, in the first phase of the interviews, he stated that he and Vidal were on Elm Street and Vidal acted as a signal man; in the second round of interviews he became much more circumspect about Vidal and their being on Elm Street at the time of the shooting.

Photographs do show two men (described respectively in JFK assassination literature as the Umbrella Man and the Dark Complected Man) who appear quite similar to Roy Hargraves and Felipe Vidal standing beside each other on Elm Street, then sitting quite close together before they walk away in different directions. One of them wearing a beret similar in appearance to berets seen in other photographs of Vidal and to many appears to have some sort of radio in his back pocket. It may be that Hargraves was not aware of those photographs in the first phase of the interview.

Hargraves was more specific about his own role. Being experienced with explosives (it can be confirmed that Hargraves was an explosives specialist; in later years after he and Hemming had moved to Los Angeles he built bombs which were used against the Black Panthers) he was to build an improvised explosive device (a car bomb). The bomb was placed in a car on the access ramp from Main Street to the Stemmons freeway (the route to JFK's scheduled speech at the Trade Mart), but was not used given the success of the rifle attack on Elm Street. Photographs do show a number of vehicles parked in the area described by Hargraves...

Unfortunately it can be shown that Hargraves was also passing along a great deal of misinformation - and intentional disinformation - in his conversations with Twyman – something not unexpected. Even Gerry Hemming's brother was open about the fact that Hemming, and presumably Hargraves, intentionally convoluted their stories so extensively that anyone dealing with them as potential suspects would simply give up and walk away confused. There is absolutely no doubt that Hargraves' information needs to be approached with great caution, considering only that which has some level of corroboration."

 

I think Umbrella Man is more or less what he claimed, a symbolic display of anti-isolationism and the portent of the storm that was to come on a still then cloudless day.

Edited June 12 by Matt Cloud

[Matthew Koch]

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

I think Umbrella Man is more or less what he claimed, a symbolic display of anti-isolationism and the portent of the storm that was to come on a still then cloudless day.

I agree with your analysis 

It is clearly Witt there are alot of other pictures that show it's him (Check altgens collection I think he took some)

Imo, it would be better time spent on the Umbrella man to see if Witt connects to Lemay or someone else who was in ExComm that was there for the Neville Chamberlin Comment, The LBJ campaign made the comment also during the DNC challenge.

 

Edited June 12 by Matthew Koch

[Robert Morrow]

20 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Ah ...

In fact while down in Miami in June, 2013 I personally met LUIS POSADA.  Ever heard of that cat? Posada in 2013 was still very proud of the fact that Fidel Castro still hated him.

One of the anti-Castro Cuban leaders told me Lyndon Johnson "was a very nice man." Probably because LBJ let them keep harassing Castro while Kennedy had become an obstacle to this activity. The person who really shut down the anti-Castro operations against Castro was RICHARD NIXON in January, 1969, because it sure as hell was not LBJ, contrary to what many people seem to think.

My friend has ties to the inner circle of the (old in 2013; I guess dying in 2024)  of the anti-Castro Cubans. My friends says that it is definitely NOT Tosh Plumlee in that Mexico City photo. He thinks it is Frank Sturgis.

I wrote down the other names but they are under a stack of paper right now. - RM

P.S. While in Miami in June, 2013, my friend and I were knocking on the door of the (average, modest) apartment of Eugenio Martinez, who I think was by then in a wheelchair. Eugenio was in the apartment but he did not answer the door.

This Eugenio Martinez - Eugenio Martínez - Wikipedia

I am not an expert on the anti-Castro Cubans or Watergate, but at least I know who this guy was. Eugenio Martinez lived to the ripe old age of 99!

 

 

Edited June 12 by Robert Morrow

[Matt Cloud]

28 minutes ago, Robert Morrow said:

In fact while down in Miami in June, 2013 I personally met LUIS POSADA.  Ever heard of that cat? Posada in 2013 was still very proud of the fact that Fidel Castro still hated him.

One of the anti-Castro Cuban leaders told me Lyndon Johnson "was a very nice man." Probably because LBJ let them keep harassing Castro while Kennedy had become an obstacle to this activity. The person who really shut down the anti-Castro operations against Castro was RICHARD NIXON in January, 1969, because it sure as hell was not LBJ, contrary to what many people seem to think.

My friend has ties to the inner circle of the (old in 2013; I guess dying in 2024)  of the anti-Castro Cubans. My friends says that it is definitely NOT Tosh Plumlee in that Mexico City photo. He thinks it is Frank Sturgis.

I wrote down the other names but they are under a stack of paper right now. - RM

P.S. While in Miami in June, 2013, my friend and I were knocking on the door of the (average, modest) apartment of Eugenio Martinez, who I think was by then in a wheelchair. Eugenio was in the apartment but he did not answer the door.

This Eugenio Martinez - Eugenio Martínez - Wikipedia

I am not an expert on the anti-Castro Cubans or Watergate, but at least I know who this guy was. Eugenio Martinez lived to the ripe old age of 99!

 

 

This is really not especially interesting to me but just for argument's sake I'll engage. Does your friend have any actual firsthand knowledge as to the ID of the person at issue?  Anything at all?  Or is he just basing his opinion after looking at the photo?  Do you understand the distinction?

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

I agree with your analysis 

It is clearly Witt there are alot of other pictures that show it's him (Check altgens collection I think he took some)

Imo, it would be better time spent on the Umbrella man to see if Witt connects to Lemay or someone else who was in ExComm that was there for the Neville Chamberlin Comment, The LBJ campaign made the comment also during the DNC challenge.

 

It's not LeMay that has issue with isolationism. It is Harriman, Bush, etc.  

Edited June 12 by Matt Cloud

[Bill Simpich]

If we could prove that Vidal was the Dark Complected Man - we could agree to disagree about the Umbrella Man - and we would crack an important part of this case.

I think there is a good amount of evidence that Vidal is the Dark Complected Man.  Resolving this question is important.  

Vidal was one of the more important people in the Cuban underground, and a well-documented ally of Gen. Edwin Walker.

 

Edited June 12 by Bill Simpich