The Zapruder Film and NPIC/Hawkeyeworks Mysteries

[Sandy Larsen]

11 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

Has anyone in the limo or secret service follow up car testified that the limo stopped? Wouldn’t these witnesses be the most significant?

 

Kevin,

My response to Jeremy's post was unrelated to the limo slowdown. I am agnostic with regard to that.

It is the 40 witnesses to the gaping head wound that I feel strongly about. What they saw contradicts what we see in the Z film, and in the autopsy photos.

 

[Keven Hofeling]

12 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

Has anyone in the limo or secret service follow up car testified that the limo stopped? Wouldn’t these witnesses be the most significant?

Jim Marrs, 'Crossfire' page 482, as follows:

"...The experience of former Texas senator Ralph Yarborough also sheds light on the manner in which the Commission allowed key witnesses to be handled. The fact that Yarborough was riding beside Lyndon Johnson in the motorcade may explain his treatment in the summer of 1964. He described it this way:

After I wrote them, you see, a couple of fellows came to see me. They walked in like they were a couple of deputy sheriffs and I was a bank robber. I didn't like their attitude. As a senator I felt insulted. They went off and wrote up something and brought it back for me to sign. But I refused. I threw it in a drawer and let it lay there for weeks. And they had on there the last sentence which stated "This is all I know about the assassination." They wanted me to sign this thing, then say this is all I know. Of course, I would never have signed it. Finally, after some weeks, they began to bug me. "You're holding this up, you're holding this up" they said, demanding that I sign the report. So I typed one up myself and put basically what I told you about how the cars all stopped. I put in there, "I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future presidents, they should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." I sent that over. That's dated July 10, 1964, after the assassination. To my surprise, when the volumes were finally printed and came out, I was surprised at how many people down at the White House didn't file their affidavits until after the date, after mine the 10th of July, waiting to see what I was going to say before they filed theirs. I began to lose confidence then in their investigation and that's further eroded with time...."

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

But the time, technology and expertise wasn’t available back then?

 

Sean,

It is a proven fact -- in more way than one -- that the Z film has been altered. We just don't know how it was altered.

Therefore we know that there was indeed available back then the time, technology and expertise required to do it.

While it is true that Hawkeyeworks theory is based on decades-old testimony, I've have seen nothing in this thread indicating it is wrong. Because of that, and the fact that there is no other theory explaining how the alterations were made, I'm inclined to believe this one.

 

Edited August 8 by Sandy Larsen

[Paul Rigby]

41 minutes ago, Keven Hofeling said:

Jim Marrs, 'Crossfire' page 482, as follows:

"...The experience of former Texas senator Ralph Yarborough also sheds light on the manner in which the Commission allowed key witnesses to be handled. The fact that Yarborough was riding beside Lyndon Johnson in the motorcade may explain his treatment in the summer of 1964. He described it this way:

After I wrote them, you see, a couple of fellows came to see me. They walked in like they were a couple of deputy sheriffs and I was a bank robber. I didn't like their attitude. As a senator I felt insulted. They went off and wrote up something and brought it back for me to sign. But I refused. I threw it in a drawer and let it lay there for weeks. And they had on there the last sentence which stated "This is all I know about the assassination." They wanted me to sign this thing, then say this is all I know. Of course, I would never have signed it. Finally, after some weeks, they began to bug me. "You're holding this up, you're holding this up" they said, demanding that I sign the report. So I typed one up myself and put basically what I told you about how the cars all stopped. I put in there, "I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future presidents, they should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." I sent that over. That's dated July 10, 1964, after the assassination. To my surprise, when the volumes were finally printed and came out, I was surprised at how many people down at the White House didn't file their affidavits until after the date, after mine the 10th of July, waiting to see what I was going to say before they filed theirs. I began to lose confidence then in their investigation and that's further eroded with time...."

 

Not exactly verbatim, as the source of the interview reveals:

In fairness to Marrs, Yarborough references "the stop" earlier in the interview, prior to the quoted section.

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, Keven Hofeling said:

Jim Marrs, 'Crossfire' page 482, as follows:

"...The experience of former Texas senator Ralph Yarborough also sheds light on the manner in which the Commission allowed key witnesses to be handled. The fact that Yarborough was riding beside Lyndon Johnson in the motorcade may explain his treatment in the summer of 1964. He described it this way:

After I wrote them, you see, a couple of fellows came to see me. They walked in like they were a couple of deputy sheriffs and I was a bank robber. I didn't like their attitude. As a senator I felt insulted. They went off and wrote up something and brought it back for me to sign. But I refused. I threw it in a drawer and let it lay there for weeks. And they had on there the last sentence which stated "This is all I know about the assassination." They wanted me to sign this thing, then say this is all I know. Of course, I would never have signed it. Finally, after some weeks, they began to bug me. "You're holding this up, you're holding this up" they said, demanding that I sign the report. So I typed one up myself and put basically what I told you about how the cars all stopped. I put in there, "I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future presidents, they should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." I sent that over. That's dated July 10, 1964, after the assassination. To my surprise, when the volumes were finally printed and came out, I was surprised at how many people down at the White House didn't file their affidavits until after the date, after mine the 10th of July, waiting to see what I was going to say before they filed theirs. I began to lose confidence then in their investigation and that's further eroded with time...."

 

Yarborough was not in the limo.

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Sean,

It is a proven fact -- in more way than one -- that the Z film has been altered. We just know how it was altered.

Therefore we know that there was indeed available back then the time, technology and expertise required to do it.

While it is true that Hawkeyeworks theory is based on decades-old testimony, I've have seen nothing in this thread indicating it is wrong. Because of that, and the fact that there is no other theory explaining how the alterations were made, I'm inclined to believe this one.

 

So how was it altered? Has anyone demonstrated this on 8mm movie film and passed it by a photo expert? Based on the equipment available at Hawkeyeworks in 1963 that could be used on color film, there is no listing of an optical printer.

[Jean Ceulemans]

Note that optical printing was a process to speed up the manual duplicating of a film.  Its basically nothing more than "filming the film", in projecting the original film direct into a capturing cameralens with unexposed film behind it, one would get good results. And especially fast. But it wasn´t untill circa 1963 people began expermenting to use it creating "special effects".  Adding e.g. a semi translucent UFO picture between the optical printing projector and camera. In the years following the experimental period special effects really boomed.

 

[Roger Odisio]

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Sean,

It is a proven fact -- in more way than one -- that the Z film has been altered. We just know how it was altered.

Therefore we know that there was indeed available back then the time, technology and expertise required to do it.

While it is true that Hawkeyeworks theory is based on decades-old testimony, I've have seen nothing in this thread indicating it is wrong. Because of that, and the fact that there is no other theory explaining how the alterations were made, I'm inclined to believe this one.

 

The Hawkeye Works scenario is based on more than McMahon's recollection that "Bill Smith" told him on Sunday night he was bringing the film from Rochester "where it was developed"  We know it was developed on Saturday in Dallas.

Brugioni said that at about 3:00 AM Sunday morning, before his briefing boards were finished, the two couriers, not "Bill Smith", who had brought the film to NPIC Saturday night, scooped it up and took it somewhere else.

HW was a secret CIA lab that only the CIA knew about.  Unlike NPIC, it had the facilities to work on the film to try to conceal what it showed.

Before starting work on the boards, Brugioni and staff, including the couriers, had watched the film several times.  All were astonished by the ferocity of the fatal head shots.

By 3:00 Sunday all at NPIC knew what the film showed.  It contradicted the Oswald story officials were already going with, starting a few hours after the murder Friday afternoon.

Lundahl came by when the boards were finished at about 6:00 AM Sunday and took them to brief McCone, CIA director.  McCone then briefed LBJ.  That contradiction was now confirmed to official Washington. 

Concealing that information became an important part of the official coverup, alongside murdering Oswald, establishing the WC to frame him, and snatching the body from Dr Rose in order to control the autopsy.  All were indispensable parts.

Film alteration was the logical choice to deal with the problem.  If it worked, they would have  a "new" original film to back their Oswald story.  If it failed they would have to try to bury the film from public view.

It failed.  Existing techniques were insufficient.  So, Life, fronting for the CIA, went back to Zapruder later on Sunday and offered him another $1 million, for a total of $1.5 million (in today's dollars) to retain the original film and take the copy Zapruder had kept.  Their deal the day before had called for Life to give the original back to Zapruder in a few days.  The additional money was paid in four installments to buy Zapruder's silence.  Zapruder died in 1970.

Life bought the full rights to the film not to show it as the important news it was, but rather to bury it from public view for as long as it could get away with.  That turned out to be 12 years. When a bootleg copy was shown on TV in 1975, Life returned the film to Zapruder for $1, confirming their role of hiding the film.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It is a proven fact -- in more way than one -- that the Z film has been altered. We just know how it was altered.

1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

So how was it altered?

 

Oops! I meant to say that we just don't know how it was altered. (Or when or where.)

 

Edited August 8 by Sandy Larsen

[Kevin Balch]

39 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

The Hawkeye Works scenario is based on more than McMahon's recollection that "Bill Smith" told him on Sunday night he was bringing the film from Rochester "where it was developed"  We know it was developed on Saturday in Dallas.

Brugioni said that at about 3:00 AM Sunday morning, before his briefing boards were finished, the two couriers, not "Bill Smith", who had brought the film to NPIC Saturday night, scooped it up and took it somewhere else.

HW was a secret CIA lab that only the CIA knew about.  Unlike NPIC, it had the facilities to work on the film to try to conceal what it showed.

Before starting work on the boards, Brugioni and staff, including the couriers, had watched the film several times.  All were astonished by the ferocity of the fatal head shots.

By 3:00 Sunday all at NPIC knew what the film showed.  It contradicted the Oswald story officials were already going with, starting a few hours after the murder Friday afternoon.

Lundahl came by when the boards were finished at about 6:00 AM Sunday and took them to brief McCone, CIA director.  McCone then briefed LBJ.  That contradiction was now confirmed to official Washington. 

Concealing that information became an important part of the official coverup, alongside murdering Oswald, establishing the WC to frame him, and snatching the body from Dr Rose in order to control the autopsy.  All were indispensable parts.

Film alteration was the logical choice to deal with the problem.  If it worked, they would have  a "new" original film to back their Oswald story.  If it failed they would have to try to bury the film from public view.

It failed.  Existing techniques were insufficient.  So, Life, fronting for the CIA, went back to Zapruder later on Sunday and offered him another $1 million, for a total of $1.5 million (in today's dollars) to retain the original film and take the copy Zapruder had kept.  Their deal the day before had called for Life to give the original back to Zapruder in a few days.  The additional money was paid in four installments to buy Zapruder's silence.  Zapruder died in 1970.

Life bought the full rights to the film not to show it as the important news it was, but rather to bury it from public view for as long as it could get away with.  That turned out to be 12 years. When a bootleg copy was shown on TV in 1975, Life returned the film to Zapruder for $1, confirming their role of hiding the film.

 

 

Brugioni give no indication that his viewing of the film conflicted the single assassin narrative that was well established by Saturday night. Otherwise, he would still be expressing that view.

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Has anyone in the limo or secret service follow up car testified that the limo stopped? Wouldn’t these witnesses be the most significant?

They have all claimed it didn't stop. This argument has been regurgitated ad nauseam. Decades ago people like Anthony Marsh, myself, and Tink Thompson went through the statements of the supposed limo stop witnesses one by one and showed how the "limo stop" argument was essentially a hoax concocted to support that the Zapruder film was altered, which was itself cooked up to support that the low back of the head was actually missing from the skull...as purportedly claimed by the witnesses...but not actually claimed by the witnesses. 

Here is a sampling of the supposed witnesses supposedly claiming the middle of the back of the head was blown out. 

 

And here is where Horne places the wound.

Now, how many of these witnesses are pointing to the middle of the back of their head, where Horne places the wound? 

Not a one...

 

 

 

Edited August 8 by Pat Speer

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Brugioni give no indication that his viewing of the film conflicted the single assassin narrative that was well established by Saturday night. Otherwise, he would still be expressing that view.

I didn't say anything about Brugioni's views about the Oswald story, either Saturday night or later.

I said the film contradicted the story.

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

I didn't say anything about Brugioni's views about the Oswald story, either Saturday night or later.

I said the film contradicted the story.

You said “all of NPIC” knew the film contradicted the lone gunman firing from behind scenario by 3:00 (AM or PM?) on Sunday. Presumably, that includes Brugioni. Brugioni certainly gave no indication of that in his interviews with Peter Janney or Douglas Horne.

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Here is a sampling of the supposed witnesses supposedly claiming the middle of the back of the head was blown out.

And here is where Horne places the wound.

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Now, how many of these witnesses are pointing to the middle of the back of their head, where Horne places the wound? 

Not a one...

 

To Kevin and anybody else reading this thread:

Be aware of Pat Speer's misleading claim here. While it is true that nearly no gaping head wound witness placed it on the horizontal MIDDLE of the back of the head, most of the witnesses DID place it squarely on he back of the head. More specifically, on the right side of the back of the head.

 

Edited August 9 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Davidson]

On 8/7/2024 at 5:00 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Alvarez combined with Alvarez equals the WC.
Do you see the limo disappearing, right before your eyes?
 

 

 

 

For those without tunnel vision:

btw, Alvarez was a physicist I believe.