An Interesting Comment From Pat Speer

[Benjamin Cole]

Surely one of the solons of the JFKA/RFK1A research community is Pat Speer, who has a formidable website for all to read https://www.patspeer.com/

I disagree with PS on some details, such as the topic of GSR or lack of it on LHO cheek. So what? We have difference of opinion, and maybe I am wrong. The PS body of work stands strong. 

And PS said this regarding a Maheu nexus among the JFKA, RFK1A and Watergate:

"Now, some of this is speculation. But there is a ton of evidence connecting Maheu to both the Kennedy assassination and Watergate. So why not RFK? It makes a lot of sense."---PS 

There are moments when I think the EF-JFKA can become a place for collegial conversations regarding the RFK1A, JFKA and Watergate. 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

18 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Surely one of the solons of the JFKA/RFK1A research community is Pat Speer, who has a formidable website for all to read https://www.patspeer.com/

I disagree with PS on some details, such as the topic of GSR or lack of it on LHO cheek. So what? We have difference of opinion, and maybe I am wrong. The PS body of work stands strong. 

And PS said this regarding a Maheu nexus among the JFKA, RFK1A and Watergate:

"Now, some of this is speculation. But there is a ton of evidence connecting Maheu to both the Kennedy assassination and Watergate. So why not RFK? It makes a lot of sense."---PS 

There are moments when I think the EF-JFKA can become a place for collegial conversations regarding the RFK1A, JFKA and Watergate. 

 

 

FWIW, I took an interest in Maheu when I first fell down the rabbit hole. When I realized my dad's boss was one of his buddies I took a further interest. At one point John Simkin asked me if I had any questions for Maheu as he knew someone who was gonna interview him and wanted some hardball questions. So I put together some hardball questions. But the interview never came to pass. 

I met Lisa Pease at a 2008 RFK conference and was delighted to find someone who shared their suspicions of this guy. I still find him of interest. While some obsess on the fear of the CIA and the deep state, etc, I think someone like Maheu is far more frightening. A gun for hire at the beck and call of the richest men in the world and the intelligence agencies, who prides himself on accomplishing what his clients want accomplished. Who is ultimately accountable to no one...

I mean, I read everything one could read on the CIA/Mob hits, and it remains clear as mud who hired who to do what. 

And I think that was by design. RAMA's design. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

17 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, I took an interest in Maheu when I first fell down the rabbit hole. When I realized my dad's boss was one of his buddies I took a further interest. At one point John Simkin asked me if I had any questions for Maheu as he knew someone who was gonna interview him and wanted some hardball questions. So I put together some hardball questions. But the interview never came to pass. 

I met Lisa Pease at a 2008 RFK conference and was delighted to find someone who shared their suspicions of this guy. I still find him of interest. While some obsess on the fear of the CIA and the deep state, etc, I think someone like Maheu is far more frightening. A gun for hire at the beck and call of the richest men in the world and the intelligence agencies, who prides himself on accomplishing what his clients want accomplished. Who is ultimately accountable to no one...

I mean, I read everything one could read on the CIA/Mob hits, and it remains clear as mud who hired who to do what. 

And I think that was by design. RAMA's design. 

 

PS--

It hardly needs re-stating that intel agencies love the cut-out. 

If the CIA (or other agency) can execute a liquidation and not use any agency assets...all the better. That is likely regarded as a "very clean job." 

By this reasoning, Maheu is perfect. 

The JFKA, RFK1A and Watergate sure are interesting.... 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

PS--

It hardly needs re-stating that intel agencies love the cut-out. 

If the CIA (or other agency) can execute a liquidation and not use any agency assets...all the better. That is likely regarded as a "very clean job." 

By this reasoning, Maheu is perfect. 

The JFKA, RFK1A and Watergate sure are interesting.... 

Exactly. He was working for everyone doing anything...so there's no saying who was really calling the shots. 

On the Castro hits, I pieced it together and concluded he was ultimately working with the mob to kill Castro but letting the CIA think it was their idea...to cover his butt...and get a get-out-of-jail free card...which he rapidly cashed in. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, I took an interest in Maheu when I first fell down the rabbit hole. When I realized my dad's boss was one of his buddies I took a further interest. At one point John Simkin asked me if I had any questions for Maheu as he knew someone who was gonna interview him and wanted some hardball questions. So I put together some hardball questions. But the interview never came to pass. 

I met Lisa Pease at a 2008 RFK conference and was delighted to find someone who shared their suspicions of this guy. I still find him of interest. While some obsess on the fear of the CIA and the deep state, etc, I think someone like Maheu is far more frightening. A gun for hire at the beck and call of the richest men in the world and the intelligence agencies, who prides himself on accomplishing what his clients want accomplished. Who is ultimately accountable to no one...

I mean, I read everything one could read on the CIA/Mob hits, and it remains clear as mud who hired who to do what. 

And I think that was by design. RAMA's design. 

 

So, Pat, can we file your clever notion that Maheu--not the CIA --was behind assassination ops targeting Castro, JFK, and RFK with your claims that;

-- JFK didn't have a blow-out exit wound in his occipital skull, and

-- JFK's head wasn't knocked violently backward by the momentum of the fatal bullet?

Who'd have thunk?  🙄

BTW, Donald Trump, apparently, disagrees with you.  Trump now says that the CIA killed JFK.

Also, if the CIA wasn't involved in the RFK assassination op, why was MK-Ultra involved in Sirhan's hypnotic Manchurian Candidate programming?

And why did two CIA agents supervise the sham RFKA investigation?

 

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

So, Pat, can we file your clever notion that Maheu--not the CIA --was behind assassination ops targeting Castro, JFK, and RFK with your claims that;

-- JFK didn't have a blow-out exit wound in his occipital skull, and

-- JFK's head wasn't knocked violently backward by the momentum of the fatal bullet?

Who'd have thunk?  🙄

BTW, Donald Trump, apparently, disagrees with you.  Trump now says that the CIA killed JFK.

Also, if the CIA wasn't involved in the RFK assassination op, why was MK-Ultra involved in Sirhan's hypnotic Manchurian Candidate programming?

And why did two CIA agents supervise the sham RFKA investigation?

 

Well, I don't actually have an opinion as to who did it. I certainly think it's possible certain CIA operatives, including perhaps someone like Allen Dulles, was involved.

My point is that with people like Maheu, working for people like Hughes and Trujillo, the possibility it was a private op should not be discounted. 

And this still holds true today.

Should a VIP be exterminated in a very public fashion, most everyone on this forum would be looking at the CIA or Russian intelligence as the probable culprit.

When, to me, the possibility someone like Elon Musk had hired an agency such as Blackwater (or whatever they call themselves now) or someone like Putin had hired the Wagner group, to do the deed, would be just as likely, if not more likely. 

The top men at the CIA take orders from pols, and have a short shelf life. 

The private security business is far more lucrative than any government job, and the best and most efficient of these companies can get away with a lot more than a government agency, IMO. 

[W. Niederhut]

8 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Well, I don't actually have an opinion as to who did it. I certainly think it's possible certain CIA operatives, including perhaps someone like Allen Dulles, was involved.

My point is that with people like Maheu, working for people like Hughes and Trujillo, the possibility it was a private op should not be discounted. 

And this still holds true today.

Should a VIP be exterminated in a very public fashion, most everyone on this forum would be looking at the CIA or Russian intelligence as the probable culprit.

When, to me, the possibility someone like Elon Musk had hired an agency such as Blackwater (or whatever they call themselves now) or someone like Putin had hired the Wagner group, to do the deed, would be just as likely, if not more likely. 

The top men at the CIA take orders from pols, and have a short shelf life. 

The private security business is far more lucrative than any government job, and the best and most efficient of these companies can get away with a lot more than a government agency, IMO. 

Allen Dulles, James Angleton, and Richard Helms had a "short shelf life," eh?

On what planet?

Also, you ducked my questions about the RFK assassination.

If private businessmen like Hughes and Maheu were working independently of the CIA (and FBI) on the RFK assassination op, why were two CIA men supervising the sham investigation of RFK's murder?

Why did the FBI disappear Faura's John Fahey tape-- documenting foreknowledge of the assassination at the Ambassador Hotel?

And why were MK-Ultra personnel, apparently, involved in Sirhan's Manchurian Candidate programming?

The Hughes/Maheu theory fails to explain all of the facts.

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Allen Dulles, James Angleton, and Richard Helms had a "short shelf life," eh?

On what planet?

Also, you ducked my questions about the RFK assassination.

If private businessmen like Hughes and Maheu were working independently of the CIA (and FBI) on the RFK assassination op, why were two CIA men supervising the sham investigation of RFK's murder?

Why did the FBI disappear Faura's John Fahey tape-- documenting foreknowledge of the assassination at the Ambassador Hotel?

And why were MK-Ultra personnel, apparently, involved in Sirhan's Manchurian Candidate programming?

The Hughes/Maheu theory fails to explain all of the facts.

 

The short shelf life was a reference to the last 50 years. People continue to believe the CIA is a rogue agency running amuck the way they did in the fifties and sixties but it just isn't true, IMO. 

I don't believe it's accurate to describe LAPD detectives as "CIA men." 

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The short shelf life was a reference to the last 50 years. People continue to believe the CIA is a rogue agency running amuck the way they did in the fifties and sixties but it just isn't true, IMO. 

I don't believe it's accurate to describe LAPD detectives as "CIA men." 

Specious argument.  JFK and RFK were assassinated in the 60s.

Look at the long shelf lives of key Deep State actors at the time-- Allen Dulles, Angleton, Helms, and, of course, J. Edgar Hoover.

The concept of long shelf lives is integral to Peter Dale Scott's original "Deep State" definition.

According to Talbot's The Devil's Chessboard, Allen Dulles was still meeting regularly with his Secret Team personnel even after JFK canned him, and Dulles was at the Farm on November 22, 1963.

Gottlieb was reporting to Helms, who oversaw MK-Ultra ops.

William Joseph Bryan and Jolyon West were, apparently, reporting to Gottlieb.

Sirhan was, apparently, reporting to Bryan.

As for the LAPD, I was referring to the two CIA agents who were brought in to oversee the sham RFK murder investigation.

 

 

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Specious argument.  JFK and RFK were assassinated in the 60s.

Look at the long shelf lives of key Deep State actors at the time-- Allen Dulles, Angleton, Helms, and, of course, J. Edgar Hoover.

The concept of long shelf lives is integral to Peter Dale Scott's original "Deep State" definition.

According to Talbot's The Devil's Chessboard, Allen Dulles was still meeting regularly with his Secret Team personnel even after JFK canned him, and Dulles was at the Farm on November 22, 1963.

Gottlieb was reporting to Helms, who oversaw MK-Ultra ops.

William Joseph Bryan and Jolyon West were, apparently, reporting to Gottlieb.

Sirhan was, apparently, reporting to Bryan.

As for the LAPD, I was referring to the two CIA agents who were brought in to oversee the sham RFK murder investigation.

 

 

My understanding was that the CIA sometimes engaged bilingual LAPD officers for missions in Mexico.

And that two of the LAPD detectives who worked on the Sirhan case had worked for the CIA on occasion.

But you're making it sound like two CIA officers were brought in (by the CIA?) to run the LAPD's investigation.

If this is true, it's news to me.

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

But you're making it sound like two CIA officers were brought in (by the CIA?) to run the LAPD's investigation.

If this is true, it's news to me.

 

I believe that legally such a thing was only allowed sometime early 1980´s ? Did need special approval etc., it was not just a SOP. If I´m not mistaken..

But... given what the CIA had been up to in the 1960´s they surely must have been around, at least "monitoring", well... kinda... But running the show would be a bit of a stretch IMO

Edited June 21 by Jean Ceulemans

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

My understanding was that the CIA sometimes engaged bilingual LAPD officers for missions in Mexico.

And that two of the LAPD detectives who worked on the Sirhan case had worked for the CIA on occasion.

But you're making it sound like two CIA officers were brought in (by the CIA?) to run the LAPD's investigation.

If this is true, it's news to me.

 

Pat,

I guess it depends on what the definition of "working for the CIA" is, eh?

The two lead LAPD "investigators," Pena and Hernandez, were cops who had been "working for" the CIA (AID program) before being recalled to LA to manage the RFK assassination cover up.

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Pat,

I guess it depends on what the definition of "working for the CIA" is, eh?

The two lead LAPD "investigators," Pena and Hernandez, were cops who had been "working for" the CIA (AID program) before being recalled to LA to manage the RFK assassination cover up.

 

There was a lot of "willingness to cooperate" that can mean a number of things, pushing or downplaying needs to investigate any leads included, IMO... 

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/02330400

Edited June 22 by Jean Ceulemans