Question for the Warren Commission supporters re: Oswald's arrest

[Steve Thomas]

Gil,

I loved this part:

"When I got to these two men, I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a weapon.
I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me.
Mr. BALL - Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater?
Mr. McDONALD - I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything.
Mr. BALL - And you still kept your eye on the suspect?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my shoulder at him."

 

How does one frisk two men checking for weapons while looking over your shoulder at someone sitting behind you?

Steve Thomas

[Mark Ulrik]

6 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Steve, did you know that McDonald used to work for the CIA's man on the Dallas Police, W. R. Westbbrook ?

Being "CIA's man" sounds awfully sinister. As far as I know, Westbrook went on to work for the CIA a few years later, but what was his relationship with them in 1963?

6 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

The above report from SS Inspector Kelley notes that "J. E. Currey" was present during the 1:38 arraignment. He was not. Chief Curry was home in bed with his phone off the hook.

By all accounts, he really was present, so I guess you can strike that off your list of "inconsistencies" in the case.

[Gil Jesus]

22 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gil,

I loved this part:

"When I got to these two men, I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a weapon.
I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me.
Mr. BALL - Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater?
Mr. McDONALD - I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything.
Mr. BALL - And you still kept your eye on the suspect?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my shoulder at him."

 

How does one frisk two men checking for weapons while looking over your shoulder at someone sitting behind you?

Steve Thomas

And that's an excellent point, Steve. If Johnny Calvin Brewer pointed out Oswald to police, why didn't they just go to him first ? They didn't have to search anyone else. They had probable cause to search him and him alone. He was identified by a witness. You mean there was a police Captain ( Westbrook ) and a Lieutenant ( Cunningham ) present and they didn't know that ? They let McDonald search two other people ? What if Oswald got up from his seat and left the building while McDonald was searching people who had nothing to do with it ?

No, if you have a witness who positively identifies someone, you go to that individual first.

Did Brewer point out the two men in the middle of the theater, and that's why McDonald searched them first ? Or were the police giving Oswald an opportunity to flee so they could shoot him down ?

A lot of things they did in the theater doesn't make sense, from a police standpoint.

Edited yesterday at 11:43 AM by Gil Jesus

[David Von Pein]

10 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

If Johnny Calvin Brewer pointed out Oswald to police, why didn't they just go to him first? They didn't have to search anyone else.

That is fully explained by Police Officer Nick McDonald himself in the 1983 interview below (fast forward to 4:33)....

 

Edited 21 hours ago by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

7:25 MacDonald says he with control over Oswald’s pistol stuck it into Oswald’s stomach with consideration of shooting Oswald but did not do so due to safety consideration for the officer behind Oswald who might be hurt if he did.

Edited 20 hours ago by Greg Doudna

[David Von Pein]

[David Von Pein]

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Interviews With Nick McDonald & Paul Bentley

 

Edited 18 hours ago by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

There was a "click" of the trigger being pulled and a shot that did not fire, evidently because someone had the flesh of their thumb or hand blocking the hammer mechanism.

Is it certain that Oswald, and not MacDonald, pulled that trigger?

The only known time the pistol was pointed at someone in a position to do damage was MacDonald's confession that he intentionally pointed the pistol into Oswald's stomach.

The only known person involved known to have possible intent to shoot anyone was MacDonald (based on confession).

The only known person involved known to have been in control of the pistol to have the means to fire it was MacDonald (based on confession).

On the assumption that pulling of the trigger was intentional, how is it known who did or would have done that?

Maybe MacDonald pulled the trigger when he had the pistol aimed at Oswald; it failed because Paul Bentley's hand was in the way of the trigger mechanism; and MacDonald later did not admit he had pulled the trigger.

Paul Bentley in Sneed, No More Silence, 287:

"I dove over about three or four rows of seats and came down on the side of Oswald, grabbing for the pistol. Either my finger or hand or McDonald's prevented the pistol from firing because there was a slight indentation in the shell where the firing pin had come down, but it didn't explode the shell."

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

"I was crouching low and holding my gun in case any trouble came. I wanted to be ready for it. I walked up the aisle..."

Oh really? Were you crouching low when you frisked those two men?

If you were crouching low, how did you walk up the aisle? Did you crab-walk up the aisle?

Ah, so had your gun out when you approached Oswald? And Oswald, with a gun pointed at him, made a grab for his own gun?

And if you had your gun out, How did you put one hand on Oswald's pistol and grab him around the waist with the other?

What a bunch of hooey.

Steve Thomas

Edited 13 hours ago by Steve Thomas

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Ah, so had your gun out when you approached Oswald? And Oswald, with a gun pointed at him, made a grab for his own gun?

And if you had your gun out, How did you put one hand on Oswald's pistol and grab him around the waist with the other?

I think when Officer Nick McDonald said "holding my gun" in that newspaper article, he simply meant that he had his hand ON his gun (in case he needed to draw it quickly). I don't think he meant that he had his gun completely out of its holster.

And my above interpretation is backed up by what McDonald told Eddie Barker at the 3:17 mark in THIS 1964 CBS NEWS VIDEO, in which McDonald was specifically asked by Barker if McDonald had drawn his gun as he approached Oswald in the theater, and McDonald said "No".

 

Edited 11 hours ago by David Von Pein

[Sean Coleman]

 

 

Not sure his nose got fully fisted, looks more like a cheek scratch to me.

Edited 8 hours ago by Sean Coleman

[Gil Jesus]

22 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

Not sure his face got fully fisted, looks more like a scratch to me.

It is a scratch. Allegedly made by the hammer as the weapon was being pulled out of the mass of humanity. ( 3 H 300-301 )

McDonald testified that he disarmed Oswald. "I jerked it free...I gave it to Detective Bob Carroll". ( ibid. )

But Carroll testified that HE was the one who disarmed Oswald. " I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked the pistol away and stuck it in my belt." ( 7 H 20 )

Carroll also testified under oath that he didn't see anyone strike Oswald. ( 7 H 21 ) But in this video interview he admits that he himself, "popped him one upside his head".

Funny he never mentioned that to the Warren Commission. He must have forgot.

 

[Steve Thomas]

- WC testimony of McDonald -

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/mcdonald.htm

"And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now."
As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went to the waist."

- Newspaper article -

 

So, which is it? Did you tell him to stand up, or did he jump to his feet suddenly?

Did he hit you after you put your hands on him, or did he hit you and then go for his gun and that's when you grabbed him?

Steve Thomas

[Greg Doudna]

MacDonald testified to the Warren Commission that the first move made was he put his hand on Oswald, at his waist. That preceded Oswald’s reactions and moves in time sequence. 

I do not believe Oswald pulled a gun on and tried to shoot MacDonald. It sounds to me like MacDonald started to pull Oswald’s gun out which was his objective in initiating the frisk and reach to the waist in the first place, to disarm Oswald, and Oswald resisted.

Oswald resisted and struggled but MacDonald got control of the pistol, put it into Oswald’s stomach and pulled the trigger to shoot Oswald, but the attempt to shoot Oswald failed due to the flesh of a hand of another officer blocked the hammer. In the melee no other officer could have known personally who pulled the trigger other than MacDonald, since both hands were struggling on the weapon. MacDonald then claimed that it was Oswald who pulled the trigger which has no verification stronger than MacDonald’s sayso. I think he was lying on that, though the rest of the police backed him up on that.

But why did Oswald resist arrest which was irrational? 

Why do people resist arrest which is irrational? 

I looked up some studies done on this question, and one thing that is a strong factor is the resistor is stressed and reacts.

A couple of days ago I happened to see a courtroom TV show where a big man in a court would not shut up when the judge ordered him to be quiet. The man was there on some traffic ticket charge and was claiming he was a “sovereign citizen” and the judge was illegitimate according to the Constitution and citing case law and so on. After repeated warnings from the woman judge that he would be held in contempt and removed from the courtroom if he persisted failed to get him to stop ranting and be quiet, a bailiff or officer approached him. The man reacted viscerally, screaming “Don’t touch me!” And kept sidestep moving out of the officer’s way. Other officers quickly came as backup and now there were three or four surrounding the man inches from him but still not yet touching him as the man continued like in a complete panic screaming to the officers not to touch him. Then they swarmed and took him down and he struggled with all his might. He was subdued, handcuffed and taken away.

The next day he appeared before the judge and was shown on film apologizing for reacting the way he did the previous day which he now told the judge he realized had been wrong and was sorry.

Compare Oswald in interrogation admitting he punched the officer (MacDonald) and said “I’ll cop to that” not as pride but as acknowledgement of having been wrong.

Why was there resistance to arrest which wasn’t rational in the case of the big man, and in countless other cases? And in Oswald’s case?

I think the sequence went like this: MacDonald starts frisking Oswald to get his gun; Oswald resists and punches MacDonald; MacDonald whose attitude is not improved by having been punched in the face tries to shoot Oswald; the gun does not fire by the freak accident of another officer’s hand on the gun blocking the hammer; MacDonald backed up by the other officers falsely say Oswald drew a gun and tried to shoot a police officer.

And that became the story.