William Greer and JFK

[Shanet Clark]

The case is full of "good guys" who just "couldn't have known"

The intensity of pressure brought to bear must have been both

illicit:

"we will kill you"

and licit:

"These are orders-don't ask questions"

Both must have been widely in place for these things to have occurred.

[James Richards]

I did some research some time ago on Greer's background. I'm pretty much convinced this poor guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. In no way, shape or form was he involved in the conspiracy, or slowed the limo deliberately. (Richard J. Smith)

I agree, Richard.

As Ryan Crowe has pointed out, if a bullet or bullets came from the front, then his immediate reaction would be not to drive into an ambush. That could explain his apparent non-reaction - simply caught in no man's land.

James

[James Richards]

From 11-21. You can't get a look of the driver, so who knows if it was Greer.

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Hi Nic,

Greer aside, that sure looks like Roy Kellerman standing by the limo's passenger door.

James

[Shanet Clark]

James

That is Al Carrier's position, that accellerating forward and out of the zone is TRAINING; but that possibly hesitating and halting in light of forward fire is simple INSTINCT.

I take a darker view of the services that day, but I also take the point you all are making...

[James Richards]

Several witnesses said that Greer stopped the car after the first shot was fired. This included Jean Hill, who was the closest witness to the car when Kennedy was hot: According to Hill "the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out". James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated that the limousine "after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped." Mary Woodward, a journalist with the Dallas Morning News wrote: "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt... after the first shot". (John Simkin)

Something I have never been able to understand is if you watch the Zapruder film, the limo continues with momentum through the attack. I remember reading somewhere that the vehicle speed was approximately 11 MPH. So, how does Clint Hill manage to jump off the following vehicle and actually catch the limo in such a short space if the limo didn't slow considerably which the Z film doesn't show?

Close examination of the film shows that Hill was at the back of the limo at approximately the time of the head shot. So, if he reacts to the first shot of which no one else seems to have, he has about 6 seconds to leap off the vehicle and to sprint toward the limo which hasn't appeared to have considerably slowed.

For me, that doesn't quite add up. Am I missing something?

Below is the article by Mary Woodward.

James

Edited February 6, 2005 by James Richards

[Jack White]

For me, that doesn't quite add up. Am I missing something?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, James. The Z film is a fabrication.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/costella/jfk/intro/

Jack

[Shanet Clark]

The keepers of the Z film have been caught eliminating frames, thus speeding things up. Both the Nix and the Muchmore film start at pretty much the same time, possibly after a complete halt. The background (plain green) of the Zapruder (and the lack of a rear head wound) point to some forgery in the Z-film.

One thing no one air-brushed away -- the white flash of brain and bone in Nix, Jacquie follows this back onto the hood, providing some film photographic evidence of a forward headshot, confirmed by Parkland medical eyewitnesses. (although the white object might be jacquie's gloved right hand?)

(I am beginning to agree with Jack on this -- the Z film is very problematic)

John Liggett did to the body what film experts did to the films. Removed the obvious and overwhelming evidence of a forward shot.

The headsnaps on GREER, KELLERMAN and MRS. CONNALLY are pretty compelling evidence of a speed up in the Z film... headsnaps and forward braking "bows"...

[James Richards]

Yes, James. The Z film is a fabrication. (Jack White)

Hi Jack,

To continue my earlier babbling, the classic Altgens' photo shows JFK going for his throat so he has obviously been hit and Clint Hill is still positioned on the running boards of the following vehicle. This means he has only a few seconds to get off the vehicle and to catch the limo at the time of the headshot.

A few weeks ago, some friends and I tried to duplicate Hill's performance given that he reacted at the time of the first shot which according to the extant photographic record, he did not which makes his feat even more incredible.

The vehicles we used were travelling at ten miles per hour and were not slowed. Now I am quite fit, not a bad middle distance runner and in six seconds, I didn't even get close. The only way I could get close in the alotted time frame was to slow the lead vehicle down markedly which IMO, the Zapruder film doesn't depict.

FWIW.

James

Edited February 7, 2005 by James Richards

[Al Carrier]

Yes, James. The Z film is a fabrication. (Jack White)

Hi Jack,

To continue my earlier babbling, the classic Altgens' photo shows JFK going for his throat so he has obviously been hit and Clint Hill is still positioned on the running boards of the following vehicle. This means he has only a few seconds to get off the vehicle and to catch the limo at the time of the headshot.

A few weeks ago, some friends and I tried to duplicate Hill's performance given that he reacted at the time of the first shot which according to the extant photographic record, he did not which makes his feat even more incredible.

The vehicles we used were travelling at ten miles per hour and were not slowed. Now I am quite fit, not a bad middle distance runner and in six seconds, I didn't even get close. The only way I could get close in the alotted time frame was to slow the lead vehicle down markedly which IMO, the Zapruder film doesn't depict.

FWIW.

James

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James, Jack and all,

First of all, I have never seen any realistic proof of Z-Film alteration, only speculation from misunderstanding what one is seeing. The Z-Film is consistent with what is seen in other films and photos. It also shows the limo slowing prior to head impact with what I have gauged as from 12mph to 5mph roughly. One must consider the angle and distance of the limo to the camera. When considering the witnesses observation of both those in the motorcade and those outside of it stating the the limo came to a stop, one must keep in mind that the slowing of the limo sets off a chain reaction of delayed reaction of the cars further back in the motorcade and many of the cars further back came to a near or complete stop to react to the slowing of the limo.

The actions of the secret service agents were simply reactions to what was being heard and seen and then their response to the reaction that they conceived. There are many factors involved here that I have posted at Lancer and have put into the paper published by the Dealey Plaza Echo. It is a science of action v. reaction v. response that I have not only studied but also took part in the developement of the exercises that substanciated the findings.

I have posted here a segment of the paper I published in the DP Echo which explains Hill's reaction and response. If John can get Ian Griggs to ok my posting the entire paper here, I will gladly do it and I firmly believe it will explain the majority of concerns.

As the first shot rings out, Agents in and on the follow-up car turn to the rear in recognition of a loud noise. Agents in the front seat of the limo do the same. There reaction is immediate to hearing the sound. There turn to the sound is to verify what is was they had heard.

Agent Hill on the passenger side front portion running board of the follow-up car testifies to looking over his shoulder to identify the source of the sound, but his eyes cross the President and he sees the President react to being hit. He testifies that he immediately leaves the follow-up car and runs to the presidential limo to provide protection to it’s occupants . We see in the Altgens photo that Hill turns back to the source of where he assumes the shot came . This is not in contradiction to his statement, as his mind has still not processed what he has seen in passing across the limo.

Considering that Hill has turned toward the direction of the source at roughly Zapruder Film frame 217 and reaches the limo at frame 317. We must deduce his response time from this. The conclusion of frame 217 is in conjunction with the matching of the positioning of the occupants with the Zapruder Film and the Altgens Photo. The Zapruder Film recorded at roughly 18fps, which would give him a reaction and travel time of 5.2 seconds. For Hill to have recognized the sound as something of concern and fully turned to it’s location of origin that he perceived, we would place the shot location at approximately Z-frame 181 to 190. Considering he had to leave the follow-up car that was traveling at roughly 15mph and close on the limo traveling at the same speed from a distance of roughly fifteen feet, this would take off approximately two to two and a half seconds. Leaving Hill with a response time of 2.5 to 3 seconds. This time is well within the expectations of the tests listed above.

Al

[James Richards]

Thanks Al.

I did some Googling and found that an average human adult can run at approximately 15 mph. With that, the key to all of this is the limo slowing enough for Hill to catch it.

I have watched the Zapruder film over and over and I just can't detect the limo slowing to roughly a third of its speed.

BTW, jumping from a vehicle moving at 10 mph and keeping one's footing was a task by itself.

James

[Dawn Meredith]

If there was a conspiracy -- and I think we're all beyond that point -- would the power behind this crime take the chance on all their plans being foiled by one alert Secret Service man doing his job? 

After a couple of rounds are squeezed off, Greer turns to see JFK wounded and puts a foot on the gas and gets the hell out of Dealey Plaza, and Kennedy survives to return to Washington and his brother, the Attorney General.  What happens then to those that plotted this crime?

I can see the plotters gathered around Parkland when they learn Kennedy is alive.  "Oops.  We forgot about the driver."

Would the conspirators really have taken that chance?

To me, it defies logic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

______________________________

They wouldn't and they didn't Stan. Because exactly the opposite happened, sadly.

This was not "by chance", the SS were involved. This was a coup d'etat, pure and simple. LBJ helped get it done in Tx but he was "not at the top of that pyramid". He was not in "control of" Dulles, Morales, Angleton etc etc. And just imagine the names we DO NOT KNOW and WILL NOT EVER KNOW, the behind the scenes movers and shakers. That the cover up has lasted this long and is only getting stronger demonstrates just how powerful these bastards are.

[Dawn Meredith]

For me, that doesn't quite add up. Am I missing something?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, James. The Z film is a fabrication.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/costella/jfk/intro/

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_________________________________

Jack isn't this a vast over simplification? What are you saying here, that the Z film is a total fabrication like the moon landing was???

This is not intended as a funny comment, I am serious, when someone makes such a comment as yours further clarification is needed, especially when the maker of said comment also believes the moon landing was fake (which I don't disagree with, just don't know a lot about it).

Dawn

[Shanet Clark]

Dawn, the more times I review the link Jack provided on the forgery of Z, I see some compelling elements.

The braking, halting slowing of the limo has been smoothed out and speeded up.

The rear head wound has been moved to the temple and black-outed, it seems.

The Red blood splash and dissipation in Zfilm doesn't make sense.

The fast lurching agents and headsnaps in Zfilm don't make sense.

The pincushion effect may be compelling to a cinematographer but I see these four things as his main points, and DR. MANIK (see the MANIK film and XRAY seminar paper thread ) agrees with the theory in Nigel Turner's 'The Men Who Killed Kennedy #5'...........

Its just a doctored film, and this happened ALL the time....Howard Hughes was a film industry kingpin, Jack Valenti & friends, slick propaganda film units of the joint agency offices, etc.

[John Simkin]

We've often heard that Greer was not JFK's regular driver, and this has sometimes been used to excuse his inept performance in Dealey Plaza. I would think that even a one hour seminar would have imparted enough information to a presidential limousine driver to make him realize that you don't slow down (or perhaps stop) when you hear the sound of gunfire during a motorcade. The total lack or reaction by JFK's entire Secret Service contingent that day was inexcusable and should have been properly investigated. Of course, we could say the same thing about the crime itself.

The reaction of the SS agents in the two cars is very marked. The SS agents protecting LBJ behaved as they were supposed to. For example, Rufus Youngblood responded instantly to the first shot, and before the head shots were fired, had covered Vice-President Lyndon Johnson with his body.

Roy Kellerman made no attempt to do this. The only person who did as expected was Clint Hill in the follow-up car. Hill was actually employed to protect Jackie Kennedy. That what he was trying to do. However, when he eventually got on board he took action to protect JFK. This is an extract from his testimony before the Warren Commission. "I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off," then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy."

He was the only Secret Service agent who attempted to cover the president's body with his own.

At the Warren Commission Hill claimed he only heard two shots. He also thought the second shot sounded very different from the first shot. Some researchers have claimed that this indicated that it had been fired from a different gun. Another explanation is that the second and third shots were fired at virtually the same time.

The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families". I wonder what they told them?

[Al Carrier]

We've often heard that Greer was not JFK's regular driver, and this has sometimes been used to excuse his inept performance in Dealey Plaza. I would think that even a one hour seminar would have imparted enough information to a presidential limousine driver to make him realize that you don't slow down (or perhaps stop) when you hear the sound of gunfire during a motorcade. The total lack or reaction by JFK's entire Secret Service contingent that day was inexcusable and should have been properly investigated. Of course, we could say the same thing about the crime itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The reaction of the SS agents in the two cars is very marked. The SS agents protecting LBJ behaved as they were supposed to. For example, Rufus Youngblood responded instantly to the first shot, and before the head shots were fired, had covered Vice-President Lyndon Johnson with his body.

Roy Kellerman made no attempt to do this. The only person who did as expected was Clint Hill in the follow-up car. Hill was actually employed to protect Jackie Kennedy. That what he was trying to do. However, when he eventually got on board he took action to protect JFK. This is an extract from his testimony before the Warren Commission. "I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off," then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy."

He was the only Secret Service agent who attempted to cover the president's body with his own.

At the Warren Commission Hill claimed he only heard two shots. He also thought the second shot sounded very different from the first shot. Some researchers have claimed that this indicated that it had been fired from a different gun. Another explanation is that the second and third shots were fired at virtually the same time.

The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families". I wonder what they told them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John,

To compare the actions of Yougblood to Zellerman is a disservice to Roy Kellerman. Compare the responsibilities of the two first off. Kellerman was the lead and was the radio man for the entire motorcade, set aside his responsibilities of overall hands-on security of the president throughout the trip. Youngblood leaped over a seat when he and Johnson reported that they heard the first shot. Kellerman had a few other issues on his mind at the time and also had the obstruction of the Connally's between him and the president, not to mention the steel cross member. If he left his post in the front passenger seat, then there would have been a break down in control and radio operations. Each agent has a specific duty! If he had overreacted the sounds of the initial shots which were in close comparison to earlier fireworks and motorcycle backfires and ordered the limo out of the motorcade alignment and it turned out not be gunfire, then how would that have effected the political aspects of the trip?

Greer had drove this limo through heavy close crowds along Main and had to drive with his door partially opened throughout a portion to keep the onlookers off the drivers side as they drove on the left side of the street to keep the crowds back from the president's side. He then entered the open plaza and his intial concern was the persons on the overpass ahead that he would have to drive under. His guard would have been down somewhat and his focus on the overpass straight ahead. Is it likely his reaction time would have been delayed?

Greer and Kellerman did not travel with JFK on the Miami trip which released intel on a shooter from a building with a high powered rifle. Their intel concerns related to Stevenson being struck with a sign and Johnson being spat on on previous visits to big D. Their focal point was likely the crowds of immediate concern and it took them awhile to absorb the shots being fired.

I will gladly e-mail you my paper that I have referred to that explains action v. reaction v. response and explains the delayed reactions of the secret service.

We all must keep in mind that Kellerman and Greer were seeing the motorcade route for the first time. They travelled with the President. To believe that they put themselves willingly in a triangulation of fire is rediculous. For those who are familiar with firearms and those who are familiar with sniper operations, I would love to hear from them in reference this. Who would rely on another within the limo to no get hit when the target is moving in such a disruptive way.

Al