Harry Dean: Memoirs

[Paul Trejo]

Larry/Paul:

As a physicist, I'm reminded by your debate of Einstein's later years where he pursued (unsuccessfully) a grand unified field theory that combined all forces (gravitation, elelectromagnetic and nuclear) in a simple and elegant fashion. His work in gravitation was exceptional and remains the most amazing and impressive of scientific discoveries. Today (and more than 50+ years after his death), physicists are taking his work to a new level with string theory, cosmology and quantum mechanics. Einstein remains "correct" although every aspect of his work has been challenged every year and built upon... and he believed strongly that the answer (to pulling it all together) is to be found in a more simple theory but one that explained it all.

This thread and its philosophical comments seem analogous. Physicists struggle to understand how the world really works (small and large) and our understanding evolves with time. What we think we know turns out to be much different as better small scale and large scale observations are made... requiring an open mind and humility. Theories (both inductive and deductive) are proposed, tested, modified and built upon. Some of them (e.g. quantum mechanics) severely test our human ability to comprehend and believe... they go against our intuition and "common sense" but only because they are based on our limited vision and experience.

Back to JFK... was there an inner and outer circle, or is it a more complex structure? Should it be a more simple explanation? How can a list of 250+ people involved not leave a better trail of anecdotes and incriminating testimony? Can the ground crew lead to the larger connections? Should we suspect Dulles, Lemay, Suite 8F, or LBJ? Such constructs only represent models ... our way of trying to get our arms around it all. But the map is not the territory. I believe the fuller explanation (the unvarnished truth) is non-linear and something not easily accepted (i.e. commonly seen) by most of us.

Looking at JFK as a scientist, what makes it difficult is that we cannot easily test our models and theories. We are relegated to discussion threads and scholarly books (i.e. research). The facts were either destroyed (intentionally) or at best made very difficult to obtain. Aggravating this is disinformation designed to confuse, and determined entities devoted to blocking access and diverting inquiry. One does see that pattern in the history of scientific inquiry as well. But the people who executed this plot did it in a way that is impossible to unravel... they knew how to plan it, distance themselves from it, and protect it vigorously after after the fact. There is some early work (albeit incomplete) by Lane, Garrison, HSCA, and more recently AARB that represents legitimate JFK inquiry. But the trail is cold and the principals are no longer on this planet.

Who or what will tell us we are correct?

Gene

Gene, this is a scientific contribution - so thanks very much. I'll remark on a number of your observations:

You ask, "How can a list of 250+ people involved not leave a better trail of anecdotes and incriminating testimony?"

It's a great question. The best guess I have today is that the organization of the JFK plot was extraordinary -- far beyond the official Pentagon, official CIA, official FBI, official Cuban Exile groups or even the 'official' Mafia. The easiest way to explain the extraordinary secrecy, IMHO, is to propose that the JFK plot was organized entirely by fanatics.

Fanaticism best explains the uncanny efficiency with which those who might speak any clue about the assassination (e.g. Ferrie, Roselli, Del Valle, Giancana, De Mohrenschildt, Nicoletti and many more) were speedily killed.

Also, Gene, you ask: "Can the ground crew lead to the larger connections?"

It's my humble opinion that the ground-crew is the only way to be certain of the larger connections of plotter, financier and organizer. There are so many plausible suspects that our problem is to narrow them down, and the ground-crew is the surest method to do that.

But the ground-crew has totally died off, you object. Still, we have ample empirical evidence in photographs and film of Dealey Plaza in the hours before, during and after the JFK murder. Much work has been done on this, but more and better work will be done as digital analysis continues to improve. I'm looking to digital analysis for the next new wave of certainties in JFK research.

Also, Gene, you say that "we cannot easily test our models and theories...the principals are all dead today."

True -- we are left with the poverty of secondary sources -- that is, eye-witnesses one step removed from the action (e.g. Harry Dean, Don Adams and Wesley Swearingen). Yet without these secondary sources, we have only tertiary sources -- and so I recommend that we take a step backward and that we embrace our secondary sources as our most valuable anecdotal evidence.

FBI records are extremely valuable, and with recent FOIA revelations, we have more data today than any researchers ever had in the 20th century. However, the JFK-Information Act which promises to release everything in the year 2017 still holds back a condition -- that if the government believes that National Security is threatened by the release of any JFK documents -- they will continue to be kept Top Secret.

IMHO such documents do exist, and the year 2017 will result in a tremendous disappointment for thousands of JFK researchers. A question will be raised with anger -- will even the 75 year deadline (i.e. the year 2038) offered by Supreme Court Justice Earl Warren be sufficient to grant the American People access to these secret records?

As Bertrand Russell once argued in 1964 -- if Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone shooter, then where is the question of National Security now that he's dead?

Here -- with the question of National Security -- we have the most urgent clue of all with regard to the JFK murder. In 1979 the US Government (HSCA) admitted that Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't the lone shooter -- but that his accomplices must remain unrevealed down to this day.

This is the clue. Who is being protected, and why? IMHO, only two viable answers present themselves. Those protected were either: (1) members of the Government in some way; or (2) members of political organizations of such public influence that an attack on them would lead to a Civil War.

In 1979, when the HSCA completed its investigation into the JFK murder, the USSR was still powerful, and a Civil War in the USA would have tempted the USSR to interfere, and thus risked the outbreak of World War Three. So, to claim secrecy on the basis of National Security in 1979 was still a reasonable calculation.

But since 1990, the USSR has fallen. The threat of World War Three erupting by the political ramifications of revealing the accomplices of Lee Harvey Oswald are today nil.

At this point I wish to call up all the theories of the JFK assassination -- and combine them all together in a unified field theory to seek an answer to this riddle. Clearly the solution cannot be solved by one individual anymore -- it must be entail a summation of tomes of work done by writers over the past half century.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 14, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Ernie - many people have talked, and many have died before they could, under suspicious circumstances, and they mostly lead in the same direction. I no longer think its such a mystery who did it and why.

In my opinion the holding back of documents by our government speaks loudly. Of course there is something devastating in the unreleased documents, and though there will be some more released, they won't be the ones we seek. It's not that the perpetrators are still alive, though one or two may still be. Its that the families are still powerful, and they would be exposed. That is only my opinion of course, but it is why I am not really interested in details like the ground crew. We know from what body of terrorists they came, and once we accept that we can move up the chain rather easily.

[Ernie Lazar]

Ernie - many people have talked, and many have died before they could, under suspicious circumstances, and they mostly lead in the same direction. I no longer think its such a mystery who did it and why.

In my opinion the holding back of documents by our government speaks loudly. Of course there is something devastating in the unreleased documents, and though there will be some more released, they won't be the ones we seek. It's not that the perpetrators are still alive, though one or two may still be. Its that the families are still powerful, and they would be exposed. That is only my opinion of course, but it is why I am not really interested in details like the ground crew. We know from what body of terrorists they came, and once we accept that we can move up the chain rather easily.

Have you ever contacted anybody connected with the Assassination Records Review Board to ask them to identify the type of records being withheld until 2017? And also to ask them what is the approximate quantity of documents which remain to be released?

[Gene Kelly]

Paul:

Thank you for your thoughtful response. As I prepared my remarks, it wasn't clear where I wanted to go with this. I must say that reading the words "grand unified theory" (you) and "simple" (Larry) reminded me of Einstein's journey. Physicists still pursue this unification, but are finding that nature is surprisingly different, and a single equation has proved elusive.

I don't mean to be defeatist or a contrarian. I too am interested in those many pictures that are being dissected today (whether accurate or altered) and the images are good clues. I was recently caught up the "prayer man" thread and the role of William Shelley, but found that it is only able to be taken so far... and if it's Oswald, now what? I also agree with Larry that the perpetrators will never be traced to the trigger men... it is an imperative in that business that one must not be caught or traced back to the agency. People do make mistakes, and some do talk (as Larry has shown), but these instigators were professional liars and experts in deception, as well as fanatics as you suggest.

One of the fascinations for me in this case is the intelligence operations and methods. I've attempted on occasion writing a paper to organize the disparate facts, and the storyline always has three distinct parts: the planning, the execution, and the cover-up... three separate (and very distinct, highly compartmentalized imho) operations. This is why I don't hold much hope for what the ground crew might lead us to. I also believe that as much care as was vested in the plan also went into the plausible deniability. They were devious in setting it up, but just as devious in absolutely distancing themselves. They were professionals in that right, and this explains why it is so difficult to penetrate and solve. This might explain the case's continued fascination to many: it was in many respects the perfect crime.

That said, I admire your passion and support your challenge. In some respects, all we really have are the extant images. Most principals are no longer available for testimony... we are limited to second and third-hand statements by their wives, children and friends. I have always been mystified as to why modern government administrations (e.g. Carter, Clinton, Obama) do not re-open or prosecute the case. I do not believe it's because of continued corruption or hiding/protecting; my world view is not that dark. No doubt that it would damage the images of certain agencies and standing political parties. Perhaps it's too controversial, too 'political', or there's just no value seen. Perhaps it's viewed by expert prosecutors as a case that they just can't win, so why try? Or maybe they perceive no public interest or good can come of it. But whatever the explanation, they sure don't seem interested in re-opening or cracking the case.

The "big fish" are not that interesting to me anymore. Politics became uninteresting after Richard Nixon. I've no doubt that JFK's enemies within were many, and responsible in some fashion. And I read a statement once that has resonated strongly: "assassination is politics by other means". In summary, your thread and questions have sparked a deeper question for me, especially as we face imminent closure of this fine website. Mr. Lazar's philosophical challenge forces me to re-examine why we pursue the truth and how we will get there.

Gene

[Ernie Lazar]

UPDATE:

I now have received on CD the first 36 sections of the FBI HQ main file on the John Birch Society. I will arrange to have it posted online in a few weeks. There is good news and bad news to report:

(1) GOOD NEWS

Interestingly, in some cases, there are many less redactions than when I first obtained this file in the early 1980's as paper documents. And the text in some of the copies are sharper/darker than my original paper docs.

(2) BAD NEWS

The reason I was able to obtain this CD so quickly is because, coincidentally, another person also had made a request for the file and the FBI had just completed processing his request BUT his processing instructions eliminated much of the incoming correspondence received from the public.

In addition, he did not provide the FBI with an extensive list of names of deceased persons connected to the JBS. My current "death list" consists of 10 pages of names. Lastly, the sub-A file material and enclosures were not processed which means (for example) that all the newspaper articles or copies of JBS publications in the sub-A file are currently not released AND the full copy of the 1950's version of Welch's manuscript (The Politician) was not processed. Since this "private letter" version is not available in any U.S. library -- that was a major disappointment.

Consequently, I am going to appeal this entire release so that (hopefully) it will be re-processed with many fewer redactions (using my death list names) and I will be able to obtain all the enclosures and sub-A file material along with documents referred to other agencies for review and processing.

However, typically, the appeal process takes 6-8 months and then the FBI usually takes another 6-8 months to re-process a file so I will not be able to post online the full version of this file for probably another year.

[Ernie Lazar]

UPDATE RE: MY FOIA REQUESTS ON HARRY DEAN

Methodology:

When I received Harry’s Los Angeles field file from NARA, I made notes of every file or serial number referenced on every page of his file which definitely did, or might, pertain to Harry.

In addition, I listed all FBI files and serials shown on FBI search slips in Harry’s HQ and Los Angeles files AND I attempted to list every person or organization that Harry mentioned in Paul Trejo’s eBook or in messages by Harry on EF or elsewhere.

I then submitted FOIA requests to the FBI on all of these subject matters, files, or serials.

1. Altogether I submitted approximately 70 FOIA requests that pertained to Harry Dean or which might mention Harry Dean---based upon his comments.

2. Aside from the three specific FBI HQ and field office files on Harry, I also requested portions of other files which might have pertinent documents because Harry claims he gave the FBI agents in Chicago and/or Los Angeles information about various persons and organizations.

Here, then, is a general summary of the status of all my Harry-related FOIA requests:

3.1 FILES ALREADY PROCESSED, OR BEING PROCESSED (or RE-PROCESSED)

The FBI is processing my requests for entire files or portions of files on the following subjects. By "portions" of files I refer to files where I specified a limited time period to be processed instead of the entire file. My requests were for dates that correspond to the time when Harry was allegedly involved with those subject matters

By “re-processed”, I refer to files that I originally received many years ago as paper documents but I have requested again so that they may be released on CD or DVD so that I can eventually post all of them online.

* Alpha 66/SNFE (HQ file estimated to be 2452pp)

* Anti-Castro Activities (Los Angeles file)

* Guy Banister / Guy Banister & Associates (Chicago, HQ, Jackson, New Orleans)

* Richard L. Criley (HQ)

* Juan Del Rosario

* FPCC - HQ file on Chicago chapter estimated to be 1750pp

* FPCC - HQ main file -- estimated to be 4000pp for period from 6/60 thru 7/61

* FPCC - Los Angeles -- estimated to be 3483pp for period from 7/61 thru 12/63

* FPCC - Los Angeles - HQ file on Los Angeles chapter

* FPCC - New York City chapter -- estimated to be 3098pp for period from 8/60 thru 7/61 [entire file is 10,991pp]

* Joaquin Freire – HQ

* Guy L. Galbadon (Dallas, Houston, HQ, Los Angeles, New Orleans, San Diego, Mexico City)

* Wesley Grapp (SAC Los Angeles) - estimated to be 2681pp

* Gerald Patrick Hemming Jr. and Interpen (HQ, Dallas, Los Angeles, Miami)

* John Birch Society (HQ and Los Angeles)

* JURE - Los Angeles chapter

* Minutemen (Dallas, HQ, Los Angeles, Kansas City, San Diego)

* Dennis Patrick Mower (HQ, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle)

* Joe Pyne / Joe Pyne Program

* Ferd J. Rapp Jr. (FBI Special Agent - Los Angeles)

* John Rousselot (Boston, Chicago, Dallas, HQ, Houston, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, WFO)

* Frank Vega [i originally asked for 7/61 thru 1963 but I was informed no documents exist in that time period so I changed request to first 3 sections of file]

* Edwin A. Walker (HQ)

* HQ 97-3382

3.2 FILES DESTROYED OR DENIED

The following requests of mine were closed because the FBI has already destroyed these files

* Anti-Castro Activities -- Chicago file

* Chicago 134-1540 [This file contains a comment by an informant about Harry Dean but the FBI refused to release it since I did not provide proof of death or authorization from informant whose identity I do not know; however, I have appealed the denial using Public Interest Disclosure argument]

* Los Angeles 42-27545

* Los Angeles 98-0-2219

* Los Angeles 98-97

* Los Angeles 105-0-820

* Los Angeles 100-0-20989

* Joseph A. Milteer (Atlanta and Miami)

3.3 FILES TRANSFERRED TO NARA

The FBI has advised me that my requests for these specific files were closed because the files are now at NARA

* Alpha 66/SNFE - Los Angeles file

* Florence Criley - Chicago and HQ files

* Richard Criley -- Chicago file

* FPCC - Chicago field file

* Edward Gourfain (FPCC) - HQ file

* Loran Eugene Hall (HQ)

* JURE – (HQ file)

* Joseph A. Milteer (HQ)

* Edgar Swabeck (FPCC) - Chicago, HQ, and Los Angeles files

* HQ 105-127490

* Edwin A. Walker – Dallas field

3.4 INDIVIDUAL SERIALS (ON FBI SEARCH SLIPS)

3.4.1 SERIALS RECEIVED BUT DID NOT PERTAIN TO HARRY DEAN

HQ 61-7559, #11881

HQ 62-3907, #75, #85, #91, #100, #101

HQ 62-57092, #4

3.4.2 SERIALS DESTROYED OR EXEMPT

HQ 25-81090, #1

HQ 134-9602, #6 [serial "exempt" because, again, it is a comment about Harry by informant whose identity I do not know; Probably is reference to informant who provided physical description of Harry in 1960 to FBI-Chicago]

HQ 140-18902, #2

Los Angeles 9-2343, #2

Los Angeles 25-8000, #4836 - #4838

Los Angeles 65-101, #1768

Los Angeles 67-30, #991

Los Angeles 94-250, #904

Los Angeles 100-1488, #1

3.4.3 SERIALS IN FILES TRANSFERRED TO NARA

HQ 65-19763, #12X

HQ 100-201103, #35

HQ 100-3-4-, #1594

HQ 105-4212, #1

3.4.3 SERIALS STILL BEING PROCESSED (May or May Not Actually Be on Harry)

HQ 122-190, #17

Los Angeles 62-2469, #2

Los Angeles 87-776, #257

Los Angeles 100-13364, #1632

3.4.5 SERIALS -- MISCELLANEOUS OTHER

Los Angeles 100-1490, #1 [FBI was unable to locate this serial]

[Paul Trejo]

UPDATE RE: MY FOIA REQUESTS ON HARRY DEAN

Methodology:

When I received Harry’s Los Angeles field file from NARA, I made notes of every file or serial number referenced on every page of his file which definitely did, or might, pertain to Harry.

In addition, I listed all FBI files and serials shown on FBI search slips in Harry’s HQ and Los Angeles files AND I attempted to list every person or organization that Harry mentioned in Paul Trejo’s eBook or in messages by Harry on EF or elsewhere.

I then submitted FOIA requests to the FBI on all of these subject matters, files, or serials.

1. Altogether I submitted approximately 70 FOIA requests that pertained to Harry Dean or which might mention Harry Dean---based upon his comments.

2. Aside from the three specific FBI HQ and field office files on Harry, I also requested portions of other files which might have pertinent documents because Harry claims he gave the FBI agents in Chicago and/or Los Angeles information about various persons and organizations.

Here, then, is a general summary of the status of all my Harry-related FOIA requests:

3.1 FILES ALREADY PROCESSED, OR BEING PROCESSED (or RE-PROCESSED)

The FBI is processing my requests for entire files or portions of files on the following subjects. By "portions" of files I refer to files where I specified a limited time period to be processed instead of the entire file. My requests were for dates that correspond to the time when Harry was allegedly involved with those subject matters

By “re-processed”, I refer to files that I originally received many years ago as paper documents but I have requested again so that they may be released on CD or DVD so that I can eventually post all of them online.

* Alpha 66/SNFE (HQ file estimated to be 2452pp)

* Anti-Castro Activities (Los Angeles file)

* Guy Banister / Guy Banister & Associates (Chicago, HQ, Jackson, New Orleans)

* Richard L. Criley (HQ)

* Juan Del Rosario

* FPCC - HQ file on Chicago chapter estimated to be 1750pp

* FPCC - HQ main file -- estimated to be 4000pp for period from 6/60 thru 7/61

* FPCC - Los Angeles -- estimated to be 3483pp for period from 7/61 thru 12/63

* FPCC - Los Angeles - HQ file on Los Angeles chapter

* FPCC - New York City chapter -- estimated to be 3098pp for period from 8/60 thru 7/61 [entire file is 10,991pp]

* Joaquin Freire – HQ

* Guy L. Galbadon (Dallas, Houston, HQ, Los Angeles, New Orleans, San Diego, Mexico City)

* Wesley Grapp (SAC Los Angeles) - estimated to be 2681pp

* Gerald Patrick Hemming Jr. and Interpen (HQ, Dallas, Los Angeles, Miami)

* John Birch Society (HQ and Los Angeles)

* JURE - Los Angeles chapter

* Minutemen (Dallas, HQ, Los Angeles, Kansas City, San Diego)

* Dennis Patrick Mower (HQ, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle)

* Joe Pyne / Joe Pyne Program

* Ferd J. Rapp Jr. (FBI Special Agent - Los Angeles)

* John Rousselot (Boston, Chicago, Dallas, HQ, Houston, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, WFO)

* Frank Vega [i originally asked for 7/61 thru 1963 but I was informed no documents exist in that time period so I changed request to first 3 sections of file]

* Edwin A. Walker (HQ)

* HQ 97-3382

3.2 FILES DESTROYED OR DENIED

The following requests of mine were closed because the FBI has already destroyed these files

* Anti-Castro Activities -- Chicago file

* Chicago 134-1540 [This file contains a comment by an informant about Harry Dean but the FBI refused to release it since I did not provide proof of death...]

* Los Angeles 42-27545

* Los Angeles 98-0-2219

* Los Angeles 98-97

* Los Angeles 105-0-820

* Los Angeles 100-0-20989

* Joseph A. Milteer (Atlanta and Miami)

3.3 FILES TRANSFERRED TO NARA

The FBI has advised me that my requests for these specific files were closed because the files are now at NARA

* Alpha 66/SNFE - Los Angeles file

* Florence Criley - Chicago and HQ files

* Richard Criley -- Chicago file

* FPCC - Chicago field file

* Edward Gourfain (FPCC) - HQ file

* Loran Eugene Hall (HQ)

* JURE – (HQ file)

* Joseph A. Milteer (HQ)

* Edgar Swabeck (FPCC) - Chicago, HQ, and Los Angeles files

* HQ 105-127490

* Edwin A. Walker – Dallas field

3.4 INDIVIDUAL SERIALS (ON FBI SEARCH SLIPS)

3.4.1 SERIALS RECEIVED BUT DID NOT PERTAIN TO HARRY DEAN

HQ 61-7559, #11881

HQ 62-3907, #75, #85, #91, #100, #101

HQ 62-57092, #4

3.4.2 SERIALS DESTROYED OR EXEMPT

HQ 25-81090, #1

HQ 134-9602, #6 [serial "exempt" because, again, it is a comment about Harry by informant whose identity I do not know; Probably is reference to informant who provided physical description of Harry in 1960 to FBI-Chicago]

HQ 140-18902, #2

Los Angeles 9-2343, #2

Los Angeles 25-8000, #4836 - #4838

Los Angeles 65-101, #1768

Los Angeles 67-30, #991

Los Angeles 94-250, #904

Los Angeles 100-1488, #1

3.4.3 SERIALS IN FILES TRANSFERRED TO NARA

HQ 65-19763, #12X

HQ 100-201103, #35

HQ 100-3-4-, #1594

HQ 105-4212, #1

3.4.3 SERIALS STILL BEING PROCESSED (May or May Not Actually Be on Harry)

HQ 122-190, #17

Los Angeles 62-2469, #2

Los Angeles 87-776, #257

Los Angeles 100-13364, #1632

3.4.5 SERIALS -- MISCELLANEOUS OTHER

Los Angeles 100-1490, #1 [FBI was unable to locate this serial]

Thanks for the update, Ernie. We're all watching your progress in this interesting aspect of FBI research as it pertains to JFK research.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 16, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Ernie - many people have talked, and many have died before they could, under suspicious circumstances, and they mostly lead in the same direction. I no longer think its such a mystery who did it and why.

In my opinion the holding back of documents by our government speaks loudly. Of course there is something devastating in the unreleased documents, and though there will be some more released, they won't be the ones we seek. It's not that the perpetrators are still alive, though one or two may still be. Its that the families are still powerful, and they would be exposed. That is only my opinion of course, but it is why I am not really interested in details like the ground crew. We know from what body of terrorists they came, and once we accept that we can move up the chain rather easily.

I tend to agree with you here, Paul B., that is, at a high level. Gaeton Fonzi once said that we do know the identity of the JFK conspirators -- at a high level.

Some of the more suspicious people are well known to us from photographs at Dealey Plaza -- General Edward Lansdale comes to mind. We have positive testimony from Special Operations agent, Colonel Fletcher Prouty, who has sung like a nightingale.

Yet at a lower level we still have differences. I still harbor a doubt that the guilty parties are being protected by the Government, and that this explains why the Government still withholds documents about the JFK assassination from 50 years ago.

I admit that you might be right. However, I harbor a doubt -- I suggest that bureaucratic inertia is the real reason that the records are still kept secret. I believe that the reason the plotters were hidden (though known) by the US Government is that the Cold War was raging -- and it was too hot to handle. This was true in 1964 with the Warren Commission, and in 1979 with the HSCA.

Now that the USSR has fallen (1990) there is no real excuse anymore -- except that the Truth has taken such a beating for so long that we don't have Government officials who know the whole story anymore -- and they are just following orders by keeping the records secret.

I don't in the slightest -- personally -- blame LBJ for the death of JFK (although he led the cover-up, no doubt). I don't blame the Bush family, either, although I've read the claims that George Bush, Sr. was deeply involved. Those are fairly random suspicions, IMHO.

I think we'll find -- whenever the whole truth finally comes out -- that the culprits were political extremists, and that Civil War was the real National Security worry of the US Government in 1964 and 1979.

It's too bad that 1979 was, as Gaeton Fonzi called it, "The Last Investigation." The HSCA took two full years and cost millions of dollars -- and still failed to solve the JFK murder. Well, the CIA and the FBI refused to fully cooperate, they said. National Security was still their valid excuse.

In my opinion -- until we can name the ground crew, we are left with speculations about the real plotters. It's time to move away from speculations, and dig into the empirical evidence.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

Ernie - many people have talked, and many have died before they could, under suspicious circumstances, and they mostly lead in the same direction. I no longer think its such a mystery who did it and why.

In my opinion the holding back of documents by our government speaks loudly. Of course there is something devastating in the unreleased documents, and though there will be some more released, they won't be the ones we seek. It's not that the perpetrators are still alive, though one or two may still be. Its that the families are still powerful, and they would be exposed. That is only my opinion of course, but it is why I am not really interested in details like the ground crew. We know from what body of terrorists they came, and once we accept that we can move up the chain rather easily.

I tend to agree with you here, Paul B., that is, at a high level. Gaeton Fonzi once said that we do know the identity of the JFK conspirators -- at a high level.

Some of the more suspicious people are well known to us from photographs at Dealey Plaza -- General Edward Lansdale comes to mind. We have positive testimony from Special Operations agent, Colonel Fletcher Prouty, who has sung like a nightingale.

Yet at a lower level we still have differences. I still harbor a doubt that the guilty parties are being protected by the Government, and that this explains why the Government still withholds documents about the JFK assassination from 50 years ago.

I admit that you might be right. However, I harbor a doubt -- I suggest that bureaucratic inertia is the real reason that the records are still kept secret. I believe that the reason the plotters were hidden (though known) by the US Government is that the Cold War was raging -- and it was too hot to handle. This was true in 1964 with the Warren Commission, and in 1979 with the HSCA.

Now that the USSR has fallen (1990) there is no real excuse anymore -- except that the Truth has taken such a beating for so long that we don't have Government officials who know the whole story anymore -- and they are just following orders by keeping the records secret.

I don't in the slightest -- personally -- blame LBJ for the death of JFK (although he led the cover-up, no doubt). I don't blame the Bush family, either, although I've read the claims that George Bush, Sr. was deeply involved. Those are fairly random suspicions, IMHO.

I think we'll find -- whenever the whole truth finally comes out -- that the culprits were political extremists, and that Civil War was the real National Security worry of the US Government in 1964 and 1979.

It's too bad that 1979 was, as Gaeton Fonzi called it, "The Last Investigation." The HSCA took two full years and cost millions of dollars -- and still failed to solve the JFK murder. Well, the CIA and the FBI refused to fully cooperate, they said. National Security was still their valid excuse.

In my opinion -- until we can name the ground crew, we are left with speculations about the real plotters. It's time to move away from speculations, and dig into the empirical evidence.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Have you ever contacted anybody connected with the Assassination Records Review Board to ask them to identify the type of records being withheld until 2017? And also to ask them what is the approximate quantity of documents which remain to be released? Judge Tunheim (the ARRB Chairman) is still available for inquiries.

[Paul Trejo]

...One of the fascinations for me in this case is the intelligence operations and methods. I've attempted on occasion writing a paper to organize the disparate facts, and the storyline always has three distinct parts: the planning, the execution, and the cover-up... three separate (and very distinct, highly compartmentalized imho) operations...

... have always been mystified as to why modern government administrations (e.g. Carter, Clinton, Obama) do not re-open or prosecute the case. I do not believe it's because of continued corruption or hiding/protecting; my world view is not that dark. No doubt that it would damage the images of certain agencies and standing political parties. Perhaps it's too controversial, too 'political', or there's just no value seen. Perhaps it's viewed by expert prosecutors as a case that they just can't win, so why try? Or maybe they perceive no public interest or good can come of it. But whatever the explanation, they sure don't seem interested in re-opening or cracking the case...

Gene

Gene, two comments here.

(1) You identified "three distinct parts: the planning, the execution, and the cover-up." I think you're right about that.

Yet I'd suggest that those who planned and executed the JFK murder were not in cooperation with those who covered it up. Presuming that the cover-up was part of the original plan seems to confuse the issue quite a bit. I don't presume that.

I do admit that framing Lee Harvey Oswald was planned many months beforehand. (I date the initialization of his framing with Easter Sunday, April 14, 1963.) Yet the purpose of framing Oswald was not to make him into the Lone-Assassin (as the cover-up has always insisted) but to blame Fidel Castro for the JFK murder.

So I see a major mismatch between the JFK plotters and the cover-up. I think most literature about the JFK assassination over the past 50 years has missed that point.

(2) You ask an intriguing question about why post-JFK Democratic Presidents failed to re-open the case. I don't think it's a matter of corruption, or of protecting the CIA image.

In my opinion -- and I think most Americans may feel this way -- high-level officials of the US Government know very well what is contained in the withheld CIA documents about the JFK assassination, and they see no value in releasing the data. There is no threat, and there is no pressing public interest, either. The timetable for releasing the documents was set by Supreme Court Justice Earl Warren -- and that's a high authority, even for a sitting US President.

It's been a question of National Security up through 1990. After the USSR fell, and during the final year of the GHW Bush Administration (interestingly) the JFK Records Act did accelerate the time-table of Earl Warren, bringing the date forward from 2038 to 2017. So, that's something.

One worry I still have is that Government officers close to the records have the ability to destroy them if they choose -- because they're only human. We've already seen some of them destroyed.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited June 19, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Gene Kelly]

Paul:

If as you say the Bush principals and the Republican Party are implicated by the key (withheld) records, then it's being suppressed to protect the images and reputations of living people and organizations. Perhaps it would be damaging to the country as a whole, in world eyes. The Northwoods schemes come to mind as extreme provocations which reflect poorly on agencies and officials.

While I admire JFK greatly and miss his charismatic leadership (notably missing in subsequent presidents), he also had a certain recklessness to him. I'm not totally convinced that invading Cuba, removing Castro, and revenge from BOP were the sole motives of the plotters. While disappointing, deep down, there may have been some JFK risk-taking that was legitimately viewed as dangerous to the country. Although despicable, I also suspect that the higher level officials who enabled the murder truly thought that JFK was a security risk and therefore considered themselves as patriots. In that context, the withheld records (and fuller truth) could conceivably be to protect the Kennedy presidential image.

However, I also believe that the same game plan and modus operandi were carried out (by some of the same plotters) against RFK five years later, so image protection as a genuine motive falls apart in that light. Now it relegates to a political civil war... after all, assassination is just politics by other means. Embracing the Armstrong thesis that the plotters were smart enough to blackmail the investigating agencies (Secret Service, FBI, CIA) into an embarrassed silence -- dim the switches -- with damming information, its conceivable that the damage to those agencies is what is being withheld for the common good.

Gene

[John Dolva]

"Now it relegates to a political civil war..." - If one fleshes out that concept (which I think goes to the crux of the matter. Well argued, imo.) with a series of other significant political assassinations, in this case starting with Medgar Evers, Medgar, Malcolm and King : RFK and Medgar's brother Charles were friends from when Bobby flew to be at the family's side after Medgar was assassinated till when Charles was at RFK's side when he was assassinated, to; King who again the Kennedys intervened for early, before Kennedy was elected, to when MLK, in political alliance with Reuther and Bobby, was assassinated shortly before RFK was assassinated ; Malcom was a radical symbol who with his remarkable intellect and force of character always had to be taken seriously. In all a combined spectrum representing a us opposite to the right-wing. That was the divide. How many on the other side died? Generally, the bullets came from the other side, the far right. In all : a reactionary counter revolution.

[Paul Trejo]

"Now it relegates to a political civil war..." - If one fleshes out that concept (which I think goes to the crux of the matter. Well argued, imo.) with a series of other significant political assassinations, in this case starting with Medgar Evers, Medgar, Malcolm and King : RFK and Medgar's brother Charles were friends from when Bobby flew to be at the family's side after Medgar was assassinated till when Charles was at RFK's side when he was assassinated, to; King who again the Kennedys intervened for early, before Kennedy was elected, to when MLK, in political alliance with Reuther and Bobby, was assassinated shortly before RFK was assassinated ; Malcom was a radical symbol who with his remarkable intellect and force of character always had to be taken seriously. In all a combined spectrum representing a us opposite to the right-wing. That was the divide. How many on the other side died? Generally, the bullets came from the other side, the far right. In all : a reactionary counter revolution.

Good call, John.

Gene, this is a correct response to your argument, which was convincing up to this point.

Also, Gene, I was unclear if I gave the impression that I believe that GHW Bush is implicated in the JFK murder -- I hold the opposite view. GHW Bush told the FBI about a Houston death-threat to JFK in 1963. While our eventual President, GHW Bush lived in Texas in 1963, I don't see his fingerprints on the JFK murder.

Your most interesting argument, Gene, was that the US Government hiding of JFK assassination documents might be related to protecting the legacy of JFK from the true facts -- that the Joint Chiefs stand on JFK was that he was "legitimately viewed as dangerous to the country." This could be construed to be a viable reason for hiding the truth about JFK.

Then you reversed your own point by noting that this would not explain the circumstances surrounding the murder of RFK. At this point you say, "Now it relegates to a political civil war." At this point, John Dolva stepped in with some relevant historical facts.

You wonder if the plotters were able to "blackmail" the FBI, CIA and Secret Service -- but I must counter with a question -- who has the power to blackmail the CIA?

Here is where John's theory must also falter -- the USA Right-wing simply doesn't have the power to blackmail the FBI, CIA and Secret Service.

On John's side, the ultra-hatred of the USA Right-wing followed JFK closely during the Civil Rights period. Ex-General Edwin Walker played a central role in this, precisely with his targeting of the James Meredith case at Ole Miss in September 1962, and causing a racial riot at Ole Miss during the same period as the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Historians fail to see the importance of the Ole Miss riot during the JFK years. This was arguably the climax of the Civil Rights period; hundreds were wounded and two were killed. (By contrast, the 1968 photographs of the shooting at Kent State are world famous -- while the deaths at Ole Miss are almost entirely hushed up).

So -- John correctly looks to the Right-wing for prime suspects regarding the JFK murder. Ex-General Edwin Walker is one such suspect, and Harry Dean has named Edwin Walker as his own prime suspect -- even though Harry Dean himself supported the Right-wing during 1963.

Yet I must break with John's theory if he suggests that the USA Right-wing somehow controlled the FBI, CIA and Secret Service. The Right-wing had the power to kill JFK -- I have no doubt about that. However, the Right-wing had absolutely no power to cover it up.

This means, Gene, that I also disagree with your premise that the plotters somehow blackmailed the FBI, CIA and Secret Service to conceal their identities.

My proposed solution (in concert with Harry Dean) is that the Right-wing murdered JFK, while the CIA, FBI, and Secret Service covered it up. The reason for covering up the truth about the JFK murder was not (as most JFK researchers have presumed for 50 years) to protect the plotters, but solely and only to prevent Civil War in the USA.

The people who murdered JFK were not the same people as those who covered up the plot. I think this is the missing clue to resolving the JFK murder.

We keep on suspecting those who covered it up -- LBJ, the FBI, Hoover, Dulles, Warren, and so on. But their motives were different.

Whoever framed Lee Harvey Oswald as a Red intended to blame the Reds for the murder of JFK. Those who covered it up (starting with J. Edgar Hoover) defused this angle, and portrayed this same Lee Harvey Oswald as a "Lone Nut." The cover-up people were trying to prevent Civil War (and by extension, World War Three).

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 19, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[John Dolva]

Paul, you seem to miss the point I'm making. My compact statement is not meant as a counter to Glen's as I understand it for a start. To the extent he has briefly made a number of points I merely widened the view to zero in on the factions at play. In this sense there is no difference between right wing and the agencies. Hoover made his career on busting the working class, the feebs, the cia, as the worlds main sponsor of terrorism, and the secret service tasked to protect elements are merely more professional instruments of working class oppression. Chuck in the media and all who choose to support its paradigms you have a plalanx oriented at one task which is the maintenance of the status quo. JFK was an abberation formed by circumstance. The assassination corrected that which is an answer to the marked uniqueness of the brothers and their allies in lght of the later presidencies.

re blackmail. Not necessary, though the effect can certainly be descibed as such. Simply various state organs primed to support common efforts.

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Edited June 20, 2014 by John Dolva

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, you seem to miss the point I'm making. My compact statement is not meant as a counter to Glen's as I understand it for a start. To the extent he has briefly made a number of points I merely widened the view to zero in on the factions at play. In this sense there is no difference between right wing and the agencies. Hoover made his career on busting the working class, the feebs, the cia, as the worlds main sponsor of terrorism, and the secret service tasked to protect elements are merely more professional instruments of working class oppression. Chuck in the media and all who choose to support its paradigms you have a plalanx oriented at one task which is the maintenance of the status quo. JFK was an abberation formed by circumstance. The assassination corrected that which is an answer to the marked uniqueness of the brothers and their allies in lght of the later presidencies.

re blackmail. Not necessary, though the effect can certainly be descibed as such. Simply various state organs primed to support common efforts.

edit typo

John, I actually think I understood your point.

As an Australian, on the other side of the world from the USA, you have an advantage that lets you see USA history from a distance -- taking a step back, so to speak, and offering a pair of fresh eyes.

Yet this very same distance also gives the disadvantage in which a more finely turned political nuance can be missed.

For one thing, you lump the Right-wing together with the Conservative Establishment. For you, the radical position of the John Birch Society is completely harmonious with J. Edgar Hoover and his FBI. But that's inaccurate.

For you, also John, Hoover's incessant and unfair attacks on Martin Luther King were NO DIFFERENT from the demand of the Deep South to crush the Civil Rights movement. It's easy to make that equivocation -- and from the other side of the planet, I can understand the perspective.

However, when one is up close, one sees the vast differences.

The right-wing of the USA, in 1961-1962 represented very well by Ex-General Edwin Walker (whose face was printed on the cover of Newsweek at the end of 1961, as the poster-boy of the USA right-wing) was light-years away from J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI.

For one thing, Edwin Walker was motivated almost 100% by the John Birch Society. One can see this clearly by reading Walker's personal papers. Walker treats the pronouncements of Robert Welch as holy writ.

By contrast, J. Edgar Hoover FORBADE any FBI Agents from being members of the John Birch Society. This was Un-American to Hoover, who recognized that calling any US President a Communist was not an act of loyalty, but the very opposite of loyalty.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, John. The rift between the right-wing and the FBI is as great as the Grand Canyon, when seen up close. The FBI represented the Moderates in the USA. Edwin Walker represented the radicals.

Edwin Walker is reported to have spoken of a coming Race-war between Black and White in the USA, in which he and other US Generals would take the lead in the slaughter, and at the end of that war, the Generals would cancel the US Constitution and the rule of Civilians.

There is utterly no way to pin that sort of radical thinking onto J. Edgar Hoover.

So, John, when you say, "there is no difference between right wing and the agencies," we disagree.

From a viewpoint further to the left of center, it's often claimed that the Moderates in the USA are on the side of the Right-wing. Yet from a viewpoint further to the right of center, it's often claimed that the Moderates in the USA are on the side of the left-wing. That's American politics.

As for the working class in the USA, their standard of living (while declining in comparison with the billionaires) remains among the highest in the world. It isn't the working class that Hoover oppressed, it was the radicals who wanted to take over the private property of the leaders, by violence.

That is Communism, and that was Hoover's stated enemy. Hoover's mistake was in believing the Southern propaganda that tried to make Martin Luther King appear to be a Communist. That was the greatest effort of the Southern press in the early 1960's -- and it was very effective. Even Harry Dean believed that during the early 1960's.

As for JFK, he was more liberal than former US Presidents, but he himself was not a champion of the working class as such -- because actually JFK was incredibly rich himself, and so was Jackie Kennedy before they were married. They represented the status quo in the USA -- not too much to the left, and not too much to the right.

JFK did lean slightly more to the left than Nixon -- and for the radical right-wing -- e.g. the John Birch Society and Edwin Walker in Dallas -- that was the same as JFK being a Communist. That was why, IMHO, JFK was targeted for murder.

Now -- I realize that I must accept that some members of the US Government were involved in the JFK murder plot. I admit that General Lansdale was involved. David Morales admitted to being involved. E. Howard Hunt admitted to being involved. That cannot be denied -- and I'm not defending the US Government wholesale.

However, nobody has provided PROOF of anybody else other than those three. (I don't count Frank Sturgis, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Loran Hall, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Ed Butler, Guy Banister or Carlos Bringuier because they were street-level "assets" and not full-fledged employees of the CIA.)

So, to blame the Agencies wholesale is a losing theory, IMHO.

Again, IMHO the blaming of the Agencies is a cheap-shot, a quick-fix, and just hopes to be done with the whole problem of actually working out in detail the ground-crew, and then those who controlled the ground-crew.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo