Harry Dean: Memoirs

[Ernie Lazar]

Paul -- let me clarify this so there is no misunderstanding. There ARE FBI documents which discuss Harry Dean -- but only in the context of denying that he had any relationship with the FBI.

In fact, I posted one of those documents online https://sites.google.com/site/ernie124102/dean --- it appears in the FBI-Los Angeles field file on the Birch Society. (Los Angeles 100-59001). The document is a copy of the 4/1/77 letter which FBI Assistant Director Robert Gebhardt sent to the publisher (James Kim Coffin) of a Los Angeles area newspaper regarding an article published in that newspaper which reported their interview of Harry Dean.

<snip>

_A_ There are NO documents of any kind in the JBS-Los Angeles field file to support Harry's recollections -- nor documents that refer to anybody who matches Harry's description.

_B_ There are also no documents in John Rousselot's file that mention any reports by Harry.

_C_ There are no documents in Robert Welch's file that mention any reports by Harry.

_D_ There are no documents in the FBI HQ main file on the Birch Society which mention any reports by Harry.

_E_ There are no documents in the FBI files I have obtained on Edwin Walker which mention any reports by Harry.

_F_ In the near future, I should receive Wesley Grapp's FBI file -- and I will be able to see if there are any references in his file to his alleged meetings with Harry. Normally, something as important as a plot to murder our President would be mentioned in the personnel files of the people who worked on such a matter. I also submitted a request on Guy Galbadon.

Ernie, let's take a closer look at the FBI document you posted on your web site:

------------------- Begin FBI Memo ---------------------------

11000 Wilshire Boulevard

Los Angeles, California 90024

April 1, 1977

To: NAME WITHHELD

Dear NAME WITHHELD

I have read your column, "Between The Lines" which appeared in the March 16, 1977 edition of the Las Virgenes Independent Valley News.

In the interest of accuracy, I must advise you that Harry Dean has never been an undercover operative of the FBI, has never been an informant of the Bureau, and has never been instructed to perform any act on behalf of the FBI. Furthermore, I can tell you that the FBI has never investigated the John Birch Society.

I am bringing the above information to your attention. You might consider furnishing this informatino to the readers of your column.

I would like to point out that had you contacted the FBI prior to publication of your column, the above information would have been available to you.

Very truly yours,

ROBERT E. GEBHARDT

Assistant Director in Charge

cc: James Kim Coffin, Publisher

Las Virgenes Independent Valley News

------------------- End FBI Memo -------------------

What the reader sees here is a series of denials that remain amibiguous. There is some truth and some misdirection in this memo written to the writer, James Horwitz (whose name was withheld in the FOIA copy).

First, GEBHARDT denies that Harry was an "undercover operative" in the formal sense, yet as we saw in the FBI airtel that I provided above, Harry himself denied that he ever claimed that.

Secondly, GEBHARDT denies that Harry was ever "an informant for the Bureau," yet this contradicts the FBI airtel that I provided, which speaks plainly about Harry Dean's earlier reports to the FBI in Chicago.

Thirdly, the idea that that FBI never "investigated" the JBS formally is evidently true, yet that claim evades the fact that FBI agents were not permitted to be members of the Birch Society -- and so some informal research on the JBS must be postulated to explain that fact.

GEBHARDT's admonition to writer James Horwitz at the end of his memo insinuates that the FBI would have denied everything earlier if only the writer had been "patriotic" enough to contact them first. GEBHARDT includes a copy of this memo to newspaper publisher James Coffin, clearly to embarrass James Horwitz in the eyes of his publisher.

After reading the story by James Horwitz, I find it to be sloppy -- deserving of criticism. Horwitz obviously took as much information from fiction writer W.R. Morris (whose book about Harry Dean came out in 1975) as from Harry himself. Horwitz was not careful with his facts, and so claimed more for Harry than Harry claimed.

So, this FBI memo carries a middling weight, by my reading. Also, the fact that you have not been able to find very much information about Harry Dean in your own FOIA searches cannot be used to draw the blanket conclusions that you draw, i.e. that "There are NO documents" in this or that file about Harry Dean.

I continue to maintain that you simply haven't seen all the FBI documents that exist, despite your years of effort. In that case you are in good company in this Forum, since many contributors here have also spent years attempting to obtain JFK-related documents from our Government, with middling results.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Well, Paul, we are back to where we started.

1. When FBI sources or informants revealed their connection to the FBI (or when they testified in court proceedings or administrative hearings or they produced any sort of media publicity regarding their service to the FBI---such as being interviewed on TV by Joe Pyne or by a newspaper reporter)), the Bureau ALWAYS acknowledged whether or not the statements made by their source or informant were accurate, i.e. did they provide information, and if so, for how long. The FBI did not use the phrase "undercover operative" and it certainly did not refer to these people as "agent": (which would be a trained FBI employee). Instead, their typical reply to inquiries was as I have previously provided in this forum -- and I will do so again now for illustration purposes.

This comes from the FBI HQ file on the JBS (62-104401)

"Concerning Mrs. Julia Brown, she furnished information on subversive activities to the FBI on a confidential basis from 1951 to 1960. Although she was not an employee of this Bureau, she was compensated for her services. Her current views are strictly her own and do not represent the FBI in any way." [HQ 62-104401-2499, 4/24/65]

Let's stop for a moment and consider the parallels between Harry Dean and Julia Brown...

(1) Julia Brown was alive in 1965 when this comment was made.

(2) Julia Brown infiltrated Communist organizations and held major posts within the Cleveland Communist Party apparatus. As a result, ALL her FBI files contain sensitive "classified" idocuments.

(3) After she surfaced as an FBI informant, Julia went on a media blitz to describe her FBI experiences. There were media interviews of her which were published in Sepia and Ebony magazines and there were THOUSANDS of newspaper articles all around the country [if you check "Newspaper Archive" they have about 3300 from the 1960's and 1970's alone.]

(4) Like Harry, Julia "named names" -- LOTS OF THEM (about 300 Communist Party members as I recall)...during her testimony before the House Committee on Un-American Activities

(5) Eventually, Julia became associated with the John Birch Society; In fact, just about the time Harry Dean joined, Julia also joined the JBS and she also became a paid speaker for the JBS under the auspices of the Birch Society's American Opinion Speakers Bureau

(6) Like Harry, Julia moved to Los Angeles and she continued to be in contact with Los Angeles FBI Special Agents (around the same time Harry claims HE was involved with Grapp!]

(7) Like Harry, Julia never completed high school -- and like Harry she found somebody better equipped than she was to co-author her memoir (Carleton Young was the actual author of Julia's book, "I Testify" which was subsequently published by the Birch Society publishing house Western Islands).

(8) Like Harry, Julia started making statements in her public appearances and in her writings which the FBI knew were NOT factually correct

(9) Like Harry, the FBI decided to make very emphatic declarations about Julia's relationship with the FBI because of media publicity she was receiving; in addition, the FBI was so pissed at Julia that it refused to send a Cleveland organization copies of FBI publications because Julia was involved with that organization; Hoover also refused to reply to her letters personally; instead her correspondence was answered by Hoover's secretary Helen Gandy because the FBI did not want Hoover's name to be associated with Julia Brown

Now here is where the comparison ends:

(1) ALL documents pertaining to Julia Brown are obtainable via FOIA requests from the FBI --- including the ones which were "classified" [in fact, during one of her statements before the HCUA, Julia testified about a husband and wife who it turns out were both working for the FBI in Cleveland----thus ruining them for the FBI!]

(2) I have many thousands of pages from the following FBI files on Julia Brown: HQ, Cleveland, Los Angeles --- along with numerous cross-references to her which appear in other field office files (including, of course many different JBS files and many MLK Jr files and many other files) .

I could draw a similar picture with respect to other FBI informants and "confidential information sources" -- regardless of whether or not their files contained "classified" information. And, in fact, some of them ALSO lived in the Los Angeles area AND they ALSO were sharing information with the FBI at the SAME time as Harry Dean claims he was!

Lastly, for now, I noticed last night that two of the most recent 50-year-anniversary books about the JFK assassination by serious scholars of this subject matter don't even mention Harry Dean.

[Ernie Lazar]

At the risk of butting in to a two-way discourse, let's say that Mr. lazar's suggestion that Harry Dean file some FOIA requests is a good one. Paul T - as you know I read the book. Do you think Dean might have been mistaken about the identities of those to whom he was sharing information? What documented corroboration does Dean have for his stories?

Lazar - you are quite the expert on JBS and other organizations. We know what Trejo thinks happened on Nov 22, 1963. What is your theory on the assassination?

Paul B., I don't think Harry Dean was mistaken about the identities of those in the FBI about whom he shared information. I continue to believe that the FBI refuses to share its records of such exchanges with the public because of its relation to the JFK assassination.

Therefore, I continue to believe that even an FOIA request by Harry Dean himself would make absolutely no difference to the FBI policy of withholding JFK assassination materials.

The entire key to solving the JFK assassination mysteries is involved in the FBI (and CIA) classified records on the JFK assassination. Until those records are made public (in the year 2038) it is impossible for any JFK assassination theorist to be certain of his or her results. After those Government records are made public, then everybody will know which theories were correct and which weren't.

I'm perfectly willing to admit that my theory might turn out to be wrong -- however, judging by the alternate theories that I've seen out there in the past 20 years or so, I'll stand by my theory and also by Harry Dean's confessions.

That's why I advised Harry to name his confessions, "I Might Have Killed JFK." He has no proof -- only the US government has the proof -- and everybody knows it.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Well, Paul T: You have absolutely NOTHING to lose by making an FOIA request (with Harry's affidavit) -- if only to see what would be produced. For example, perhaps you would receive nothing more than a list of the FBI file numbers which are being withheld.

However, as previously stated, my experience (and the experience of many other FOIA requesters) has been that even CLASSIFIED files -- contain documents which CAN be released -- although sometimes heavily redacted. Even with such redactions, it is sometimes possible to find clues which reveal the existence of other documents or files.

I previously mentioned my friend who sued the FBI several times and was successful in getting confirmation that the person whom he suspected was an FBI informant inside the Black Panthers, ACTUALLY WAS an informant. His discovery set off MAJOR shock waves in the San Francisco Bay Area because of utter disbelief by the informant's former colleagues and friends inside the radical movement in the Bay Area.

You NEVER KNOW what you can find inside FBI files --- that is why some of us became so addicted to making hundreds or thousands of requests.

Lastly, as previously mentioned, you should consider involving a media organization (presumably in Dallas) to support your FOIA request so that you have a VERY strong argument that what you receive will significantly educate the public about a MAJOR historical event in our history and help to resolve a MAJOR ongoing controversy about matters that are now more than 40 years old. Sometimes even the threat of litigation by a news media organization compels the FBI to be more generous than it otherwise would be.

And, don't forget, if you pursue litigation, you can request a Vaughn Index. Such an index would list each serial withheld, its date, and the subject matter discussed in the serial along with the reasons why the FBI thinks it cannot be released, Even that would possibly give more clues. And, finally, you could mention that NUMEROUS files have already been released on MANY of the key people whom are involved in this controversy -- i.e. Rousselot, Welch, Banister, Hall, Walker, etc. As part of your FOIA request, you could ask for a list of all previous requesters for each of the names that interest you and appear to be critical to Harry's story -- such as Galbadon, Walker, Rousselot. Even that might provide more avenues for further requests or contacts with people who received documents.

[Ernie Lazar]

Mr. Lazar says there are no supporting documents regarding Dean and the FBI. Mr. Kelly thinks he has many docs on Dean including FBI. At least that's my reading of these posts. Can we resolve this?

Lazar - your point on mutually exclusive theories is well taken, and while I accept you have none of your own, you must have opinions. You are after all on this forum and interested in the subject. Do you have an opinion on the guilt or innocence of Oswald re shooting JFK?

Paul B., the most direct way to resolve this is to present to the public any FBI document which NARA may have declassified since the year 2000. Here is a part of one that I know about.

This is an FBI document dated 10 December 1963, from SAC Los Angeles (105-12933), which is about Harry Dean:

--------------------- BEGIN FBI AIRTEL --------------------

TO: DIRECTOR FBI

FROM: SAC, LOS ANGELES (105-12933)

SUBJECT: HARRY DEAN

La Puente, California

RESEARCH (Correspondence and Tours)

RE: Bureau airtel dated 12/2/63

HARRY DEAN was contacted at his residence 18109 Atina Drive, La Puente, California by Special Agents RICHARD L. CROMWELL and WILLIAM J. McCAULEY on 12/10/63.

DEAN produced a receipt indicating he joined the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC) in Chicago on 7/28/60, and was a member of the July 26th Movement in Chicago on 4/5/61. He said he had connections, however, with the July 26th Movement as early as 1958, visited Cuba in June, 1960, and on his return to Chicago had joined the FPCC at the instigation of one JUAN DEL ROSARIO and JOAQUIN FREIRE, then Cuban Council in Chicago (since defected).

DEAN said he, shortly after he joined the FPCC and was elected secretary of the chapter in Chicago, discovered he was associated with Communists and Trotskyites, and that about early August, 1963 he contacted the FBI in Chicago. He said he thereafter furnished information concerning the FPCC and July 26th Movement orally to the FBI in Chicago until about July, 1961, when he moved with his family to California.

DEAN said that he is fully aware that his association with the above organizations was initiated and continued on his own volition, that he had no intention of furnishing information to the FBI for money, but only out of patriotic interest.

DEAN said that he has never considered himself as an undercover agent of the FBI, or is one authorized to represent or act for it in any official capacity, and that he has never intended claiming any such relationship with it.

DEAN said that he was not so concerned over the fact that his name appeared in the Senate sub-committee report on the hearings of the FPCC in Chicago on July 13, 14, 1961, as that he was never called to testify as he feels he could have effectively exposed the whole matter from personal knowledge and helped to ruin the FPCC.

...It is understood that DEAN is in possession of considerable literature of an anti-Communist nature. Additional information relating to the FPCC and the July 26th Movement in Chicago furnished by DEAN will be made the subject of a separate communication.

---------------------- END FBI AIRTEL ---------------------

However, Paul B,, although this document refers to "a separate communication" that will add more detail to this Airtel, I have not seen that "separate communication" and I wonder whether it remains classified by the FBI, along with a large body of other FBI documents that might somehow refer to the JFK assassination.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul -- Don't you see the HUGE INTERNAL contradiction in your own message?

1. On the one hand, you wonder if the "separate communication" remains "classified by the FBI" but simultaneously you are quoting the entire text of one serial from that file. If the file was still "classified", then HOW would it be possible for you to get your hands on that serial?

2. Also, let's look at the file number, i.e. a 62-series number. As I previously told you, ALL 62-series files are now AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED if they are over 25 years old (which, obviously, this file is). But don't take my word for it --- see info below which you did not report!

3. A 62-series file is the classification number used by the FBI for "Administrative Inquiries". Extremely sensitive information would more likely be put into a different file such as 100-series (Domestic Security) or 134-series (Foreign Counterintelligence Assets), or 137-series (Informants), or 157-series (Civil Unrest / Racial Matters / Bombings / Hate Groups)

4. Lastly, there is a rubber stamp comment on that serial which you "forgot" to mention -- so I will copy it below for interested parties.

This appears at the top right side -- next to "Subject":

"ALL INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN IS UNCLASSIFIED; DATE 10/1/85 BY SPB:BSJA/GCL" with an FOIA reference number of #211,326.

5. So, this particular file has been "declassified" since at least October 1985 --AND-- somebody requested and received it by virtue of their FOIA request #211,326.

6. Furthermore -- and THIS IS CRITICAL -- SO GIVE ME A DRUM ROLL EVERYONE:

On the bottom of page 2 of this serial, another rubber stamp comment appears (upside down) which reads:

"RELEASED PER P.L. [Public Law] 102-526 (JFK ACT)" and this comment is dated July 7, 2000.

Public Law 102-526 was enacted October 26, 1992! "To provide for the expeditious disclosure of records relevant to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy,"

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/jfk/jfk00198.pdf

So, here, ONCE AGAIN, we see YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT "Classified Documents" on JFK-related matters CRUMBLES INTO ABSURDITY

[Ernie Lazar]

Paul T:

Since you copied the 12/10/63 FBI airtel message, I would like to add something which I sent to you as a private email because I suggested, as an alternative to your 2 options regarding Harry Dean, the possibility of a third option.

As it turns out, my third option would fit what is contained in this 1963 airtel ---- so I now copy it below:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a THIRD possibility, namely, extreme confusion combined with exaggeration.

It is possible that Harry went to his local FBI office (or called them or sent them a letter or some combo of all three) to report something which he thought was significant info that the Bureau would be interested in receiving.

THEN, after that original "contact" it is possible that the FBI contacted Harry to get more details from him. In fact, it is even possible that the FBI contacted Harry two or three times for those details. [There is nothing unusual or extraordinary about what I just described---it was standard FBI procedure).

HOWEVER -- Harry might have (in his mind) conflated and then exaggerated all these "contacts" with the FBI -- and converted himself into becoing an "FBI informant" -- because, after all, he provided information "as requested" by the FBI, i.e. he answered questions they posed to him as a result of his original unsolicited "contact".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ernie Lazar]

TO ALL FRIENDS and BELIEVERS IN HARRY DEAN:

1. There is a very simple and easy method to settle all these disputes once and for all, i.e. make an FOIA request to the FBI.

2. You DO NOT have to incur any cost for postage or envelope to submit an FOIA request (unless you want to). You can send your request by email to the FBI and attach a copy of Harry's notarized affidavit authorizing release of all responsive files and documents.

3. If you want to help settle this matter -- here is what you need to know:

#1 = Harry's FBI number is #4657880

#2 = Ask Harry to send you a notarized affidavit authorizing release of all FBI documents/files pertaining to him. The affidavit should include his full birth date.

#3 = In your request letter to the FBI be sure to instruct the FBI to search for HQ main files, Chicago and Los Angeles field files, and all cross-references (HQ and field); also instruct FBI to provide copies of all "search slips" used by the FBI to find responsive documents

#4 = In your request letter to the FBI, tell them whether you want documents released as paper copies or scanned onto CDROM. The first 100 pages are free; subsequent paper docs are 10 cents each; the first CD is usually free or only $5 if there will be subsequent interim releases. Usually, the FBI processes about 500 pages of documents on one CD. Be sure to state in your letter that you are willing to pay appropriate reproduction costs (for paper docs or CD's).

#5 = It would be very helpful (although not required) to provide birth/death information on anybody whom is connected to this matter so that their names will not be redacted on released documents. If you want assistance with this -- I can help you or you can use list at bottom of this page. Be sure to mention the names in red are on FBI's "RIDS Dead List"

#6 = Also tell FBI that the following file numbers pertain to Harry Dean and should be processed (although do not limit FBI search to only these files)

Chicago 100-38257

HQ 62-109068

Los Angeles 105-12933

#7 = Submit your request to:

EMAIL REQUESTS TO: foiparequest@ic.fbi.gov [attach copy of Dean's notarized affidavit to email)

OR

SNAIL MAIL TO (enclose copy of Dean's notarized affidavit):

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

ATTN: RIDS SECTION - FOIA REQUESTS

170 MARCEL DRIVE

WINCHESTER VA 22602-4843

#8 = TELL FBI THAT:

The following DECEASED individuals may be mentioned in responsive documents, so please DO NOT REDACT their names. Names in RED are on RIDS Dead List

The formatting does not copy properly here but I will be happy to send you a list in table form which you can insert into your letter or attach to your email. You can, obviously, add more deceased individuals to this list.

Name

SSN if known

Birth

Death

Guy Banister aka W. Guy Banister [FBI SAC, Chicago/New Orleans]

03-07-01

06-06-64

Eladio C. Del Valle [HQ file 100-378541]

02-22-67

David Ferrie

03-28-18

02-22-67

Guy Louis Galbadon aka Gabby Galbadon

GALBADON OBIT: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/us/04gabaldon.html?_r=0

03-22-26

08-41-06

Wesley G. Grapp (FBI SAC Los Angeles 1964-1972)

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=154533094

10-19-18

11-01-01

Loran Eugene Hall aka Lorenzo E. Hall Aka Lorenzo Pascillo

Death record at: http://www.death-record.com/l/165693848/Loran-E-Hall

515-20-3800

01-04-30

04-17-95

Gerald Patrick Hemming Jr.

OBIT: http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/01/gerald-patrick-hemming-dead-at-70.html

554-44-8667

03-01-37

01-29-08

John Harbin Rousselot (U.S. Congressman)

564-32-5120

11-01-27

05-11-03

Willard Cleon Skousen aka W. Cleon Skousen [FBI Special Agent]

566-42-0744

01-20-13

01-09-06

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ernie Lazar

[Paul Trejo]

Paul -- Don't you see the HUGE INTERNAL contradiction in your own message?

1. On the one hand, you wonder if the "separate communication" remains "classified by the FBI" but simultaneously you are quoting the entire text of one serial from that file. If the file was still "classified", then HOW would it be possible for you to get your hands on that serial?

2. Also, let's look at the file number, i.e. a 62-series number. As I previously told you, ALL 62-series files are now AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED if they are over 25 years old (which, obviously, this file is). But don't take my word for it --- see info below which you did not report!

3. A 62-series file is the classification number used by the FBI for "Administrative Inquiries". Extremely sensitive information would more likely be put into a different file such as 100-series (Domestic Security) or 134-series (Foreign Counterintelligence Assets), or 137-series (Informants), or 157-series (Civil Unrest / Racial Matters / Bombings / Hate Groups)

4. Lastly, there is a rubber stamp comment on that serial which you "forgot" to mention -- so I will copy it below for interested parties.

This appears at the top right side -- next to "Subject":

"ALL INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN IS UNCLASSIFIED; DATE 10/1/85 BY SPB:BSJA/GCL" with an FOIA reference number of #211,326.

5. So, this particular file has been "declassified" since at least October 1985 --AND-- somebody requested and received it by virtue of their FOIA request #211,326.

6. Furthermore -- and THIS IS CRITICAL -- SO GIVE ME A DRUM ROLL EVERYONE:

On the bottom of page 2 of this serial, another rubber stamp comment appears (upside down) which reads:

"RELEASED PER P.L. [Public Law] 102-526 (JFK ACT)" and this comment is dated July 7, 2000.

Public Law 102-526 was enacted October 26, 1992! "To provide for the expeditious disclosure of records relevant to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy,"

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/jfk/jfk00198.pdf

So, here, ONCE AGAIN, we see YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT "Classified Documents" on JFK-related matters CRUMBLES INTO ABSURDITY

Ernie, once again you are over-confident in your claims.

1. I never claimed that all FBI documents about Harry Dean were classified -- only the ones that deal with Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK assassination. Some will be released and some will not. Everybody knows that (except possibly yourself).

2/3. Even though this is a 62-series, non-sensitive number, there's no guarantee that all of Harry Dean's files and documents are in the 62-series. So, you're overstating your case again.

4/5. The rubber stamp (which was not part of the original memo, so I omitted it), which indicates this memo is Unclassified in 1985 (FOIA #211,326), is really to be expected. Otherwise, how could I have a copy?

6. Also, you over-dramatize the fact of the second rubber stamp, that the document was "RELEASED PER PUBLIC LAW 102-526 (JFK ACT)". Of course it was; otherwise, I could never get my hands on a copy.

My argument still stands. Just because some FBI documents are Unclassified doesn't mean that all FBI documents are Unclassified.

The real point, Ernie, is that you're evading the content of the Airtel that I provided. In this document the FBI is far from denying that Harry Dean provided information to them. You seem to have a blind-spot with regard to Harry Dean.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited November 4, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul T:

Since you copied the 12/10/63 FBI airtel message, I would like to add something which I sent to you as a private email because I suggested, as an alternative to your 2 options regarding Harry Dean, the possibility of a third option.

As it turns out, my third option would fit what is contained in this 1963 airtel ---- so I now copy it below:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a THIRD possibility, namely, extreme confusion combined with exaggeration.

It is possible that Harry went to his local FBI office (or called them or sent them a letter or some combo of all three) to report something which he thought was significant info that the Bureau would be interested in receiving.

THEN, after that original "contact" it is possible that the FBI contacted Harry to get more details from him. In fact, it is even possible that the FBI contacted Harry two or three times for those details. [There is nothing unusual or extraordinary about what I just described---it was standard FBI procedure).

HOWEVER -- Harry might have (in his mind) conflated and then exaggerated all these "contacts" with the FBI -- and converted himself into becoing an "FBI informant" -- because, after all, he provided information "as requested" by the FBI, i.e. he answered questions they posed to him as a result of his original unsolicited "contact".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernie,

The two options I noted in our correspondence were: (1) Harry Dean is telling the truth; or (2) Harry Dean is lying.

Your so-called "third option," is "extreme confusion combined with exaggeration."

So, at least you're now backing away from calling Harry Dean a xxxx. I take that as a positive first step.

You now want to believe that Harry Dean called the FBI on the phone a couple of times, and told them what he believed, and the FBI agents thought he was a "nut" and patronized him two or three times. You want to believe that Harry then considered that he had "done his duty" and told the FBI what they needed to know, and deluded himself that he was an "FBI informer."

Is that it?

That would also conveniently explain why Ernie Lazar could not obtain more information about Harry Dean for so many years; it sure couldn't be that FBI files were classified.

Isn't that so?

Again, Ernie, you're REACHING. You're jumping to conclusions based on the argument of "might have" and "must have" and "maybe this".

You just don't want to believe that you still lack all the data required to form a cogent conclusion. Yet the evidence is glaring Ernie -- you still lack data.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited November 4, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

TO ALL FRIENDS and BELIEVERS IN HARRY DEAN:

1. There is a very simple and easy method to settle all these disputes once and for all, i.e. make an FOIA request to the FBI.

2. You DO NOT have to incur any cost for postage or envelope to submit an FOIA request (unless you want to). You can send your request by email to the FBI and attach a copy of Harry's notarized affidavit authorizing release of all responsive files and documents.

<snip>

Ernie, I won't rain on your parade -- if you think you can sell this, by all means, go ahead and try.

Yet it seems to me that you're asking to see FBI documents that pertain to the JFK assassination which are top secret classified. These FBI documents won't be released to any FOIA request from anybody, including Harry Dean and all his friends.

Still, good luck with your experiment.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

Paul -- Don't you see the HUGE INTERNAL contradiction in your own message?

1. On the one hand, you wonder if the "separate communication" remains "classified by the FBI" but simultaneously you are quoting the entire text of one serial from that file. If the file was still "classified", then HOW would it be possible for you to get your hands on that serial?

2. Also, let's look at the file number, i.e. a 62-series number. As I previously told you, ALL 62-series files are now AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED if they are over 25 years old (which, obviously, this file is). But don't take my word for it --- see info below which you did not report!

3. A 62-series file is the classification number used by the FBI for "Administrative Inquiries". Extremely sensitive information would more likely be put into a different file such as 100-series (Domestic Security) or 134-series (Foreign Counterintelligence Assets), or 137-series (Informants), or 157-series (Civil Unrest / Racial Matters / Bombings / Hate Groups)

4. Lastly, there is a rubber stamp comment on that serial which you "forgot" to mention -- so I will copy it below for interested parties.

This appears at the top right side -- next to "Subject":

"ALL INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN IS UNCLASSIFIED; DATE 10/1/85 BY SPB:BSJA/GCL" with an FOIA reference number of #211,326.

5. So, this particular file has been "declassified" since at least October 1985 --AND-- somebody requested and received it by virtue of their FOIA request #211,326.

6. Furthermore -- and THIS IS CRITICAL -- SO GIVE ME A DRUM ROLL EVERYONE:

On the bottom of page 2 of this serial, another rubber stamp comment appears (upside down) which reads:

"RELEASED PER P.L. [Public Law] 102-526 (JFK ACT)" and this comment is dated July 7, 2000.

Public Law 102-526 was enacted October 26, 1992! "To provide for the expeditious disclosure of records relevant to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy,"

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/jfk/jfk00198.pdf

So, here, ONCE AGAIN, we see YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT "Classified Documents" on JFK-related matters CRUMBLES INTO ABSURDITY

Ernie, once again you are over-confident in your claims.

1. I never claimed that all FBI documents about Harry Dean were classified -- only the ones that deal with Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK assassination. Some will be released and some will not. Everybody knows that (except possibly yourself).

2/3. Even though this is a 62-series, non-sensitive number, there's no guarantee that all of Harry Dean's files and documents are in the 62-series. So, you're overstating your case again.

4/5. The rubber stamp (which was not part of the original memo, so I omitted it), which indicates this memo is Unclassified in 1985 (FOIA #211,326), is really to be expected. Otherwise, how could I have a copy?

6. Also, you over-dramatize the fact of the second rubber stamp, that the document was "RELEASED PER PUBLIC LAW 102-526 (JFK ACT)". Of course it was; otherwise, I could never get my hands on a copy.

My argument still stands. Just because some FBI documents are Unclassified doesn't mean that all FBI documents are Unclassified.

The real point, Ernie, is that you're evading the content of the Airtel that I provided. In this document the FBI is far from denying that Harry Dean provided information to them. You seem to have a blind-spot with regard to Harry Dean.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul: My answers correspond to your numbered comments.

1. Then how do you explain Public Law 105-526 -- since all those documents/files pertain to the JFK assassination. OR is it your contention that Harry's speculations fall into a category of such enormous importance that any documents mentioning Harry or his "reports" to Grapp or whomever, on the Birch Society, on Rousselot, on Welch, on Galdabdon, and on Edwin Walker will ALL be denied?

2/3 Paul, I am the person who keeps telling you explicitly and repeatedly that more substantive documents would be filed into other file classifications -- so how am I am "overstating" anything? Furthermore, you continue to avoid the relevant question. Why has it been possible for FOIA researchers to obtain those other file classifications if they are all (or mostly) being denied? How did I (and others) get the 157-series on Edwin Walker? How did I (and others) get the 157-series on Milteer and Somersett's conversations concerning a plot to murder JFK? How did I (and others) get 157-series documents pertaining to KKK or other hate groups which relate to the JFK investigation? WHY IS HARRY DEAN THE ONE AND ONLY PERSON WHO IS SO UNIQUE AND SPECIAL?

6 You accuse me of something that is patently false. From the very beginning of our debate and as recently as message #229 this morning (above) which reports the content of my email to you, I said Harry could have provided unsolicited information to Chicago or Los Angeles. My contention remains that any SPECULATIONS by Harry regarding JBS-related persons is NOT the type of information that would ever be denied nor even redacted. In fact, I have MANY FBI files that report comments made by various sources about purported "plots". There is, for example, the alleged Edwin Walker "plot" to lead an armed rebellion if Goldwater did not win the Presidency. The FBI file on that is captioned "Alleged Klan Participation in Insurrection Plot" (all 157-series files that were classified!)

I have never "evaded" the content of anything you have stated or quoted. Instead, I have explicitly critiqued what you have written because many of your ideas about FOIA procedures or about what "classified" means are utter nonsense.

[Ernie Lazar]

Paul T:

Since you copied the 12/10/63 FBI airtel message, I would like to add something which I sent to you as a private email because I suggested, as an alternative to your 2 options regarding Harry Dean, the possibility of a third option.

As it turns out, my third option would fit what is contained in this 1963 airtel ---- so I now copy it below:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a THIRD possibility, namely, extreme confusion combined with exaggeration.

It is possible that Harry went to his local FBI office (or called them or sent them a letter or some combo of all three) to report something which he thought was significant info that the Bureau would be interested in receiving.

THEN, after that original "contact" it is possible that the FBI contacted Harry to get more details from him. In fact, it is even possible that the FBI contacted Harry two or three times for those details. [There is nothing unusual or extraordinary about what I just described---it was standard FBI procedure).

HOWEVER -- Harry might have (in his mind) conflated and then exaggerated all these "contacts" with the FBI -- and converted himself into becoing an "FBI informant" -- because, after all, he provided information "as requested" by the FBI, i.e. he answered questions they posed to him as a result of his original unsolicited "contact".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernie,

The two options I noted in our correspondence were: (1) Harry Dean is telling the truth; or (2) Harry Dean is lying.

Your so-called "third option," is "extreme confusion combined with exaggeration."

So, at least you're now backing away from calling Harry Dean a xxxx. I take that as a positive first step.

You now want to believe that Harry Dean called the FBI on the phone a couple of times, and told them what he believed, and the FBI agents thought he was a "nut" and patronized him two or three times. You want to believe that Harry then considered that he had "done his duty" and told the FBI what they needed to know, and deluded himself that he was an "FBI informer."

Is that it?

That would also conveniently explain why Ernie Lazar could not obtain more information about Harry Dean for so many years; it sure couldn't be that FBI files were classified.

Isn't that so?

Again, Ernie, you're REACHING. You're jumping to conclusions based on the argument of "might have" and "must have" and "maybe this".

You just don't want to believe that you still lack all the data required to form a cogent conclusion. Yet the evidence is glaring Ernie -- you still lack data.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

I am not backing away from describing Harry as a xxxx because he has lied (or to be as kind as humanly possible) misrepresented certain "facts". He asserts that certain named individuals were JBS members when they were not. He asserts that the LDS Church controlled the JBS when that is preposterous (and, even worse, he besmirched the entire religion and conveyed the impression that it was some kind of Jedi mind-control operation). Don't you think it is hilarious that over the course of the past 5 decades JBS critics have claimed that the JBS has been controlled by (1) Jews (2) Mormons (3) Catholics (4) the religious right and (5) a Soviet disinformation operation to neutralize legitimate anti-communists?

Paul this may come as a shock to you -- so please sit down while reading this.

This is in reply to your comment: "That would also conveniently explain why Ernie Lazar could not obtain more information about Harry Dean for so many years; it sure couldn't be that FBI files were classified."

I have never pursued FBI information "for so many years" about Harry Dean so what the hell are you talking about? What I have repeatedly told you is that there is NO information emanating from Harry Dean in any JBS-related file (HQ or field office).

Do you realize that you have created a self-sealing argument and a major logical fallacy? The absence of data becomes your "proof" that there is actually data---although hidden from public view.

IF YOU GENUINELY BELIEVE THIS CRAP -- then submit an FOIA request to the FBI with Harry's affidavit (or have him do it himself).

THEN---you can share what you discover.

NO MORE SPECULATION.

NO MORE ASSUMPTIONS.

NO MORE SINISTER THEORIES.

You will be able to FACTUALLY answer a lot of Dean-related questions in terms of what files/documents are released AND the FBI will also specify those which are being withheld AND the FBI will specify which may have been destroyed and which have been sent to NARA. [When they specify destroyed files, they usually provide the date; when they notify you of files transferred to NARA, they specify the file number -- and you can then request it there.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

TO ALL FRIENDS and BELIEVERS IN HARRY DEAN:

1. There is a very simple and easy method to settle all these disputes once and for all, i.e. make an FOIA request to the FBI.

2. You DO NOT have to incur any cost for postage or envelope to submit an FOIA request (unless you want to). You can send your request by email to the FBI and attach a copy of Harry's notarized affidavit authorizing release of all responsive files and documents.

<snip>

Ernie, I won't rain on your parade -- if you think you can sell this, by all means, go ahead and try.

Yet it seems to me that you're asking to see FBI documents that pertain to the JFK assassination which are top secret classified. These FBI documents won't be released to any FOIA request from anybody, including Harry Dean and all his friends.

Still, good luck with your experiment.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

You continue to mis-represent this subject Paul. As I said, this is your all-purpose intellectual escape hatch.

Just out of curiosity, fast-forward 5 years What will be your explanation THEN when you still cannot find any documents supporting Harry's story in JFK-files?

The following appears on the NARA website re: JFK assassination records -- for anybody who still believes Paul Trejo's delusions. I underline and bold key sections;

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs.html#sealed

I've heard that some of the records are sealed? Why? When will they be opened to the public for examination for my research?

It is a common misconception that the records relating to the assassination of President Kennedy are in some way sealed. In fact, the records are largely open and available to the research community here at the National Archives at College Park in the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Record Collection.

Congress created the Kennedy Collection when it passed the Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992. This statute directed all Federal agencies to transmit to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) all records relating to the assassination in their custody. The Kennedy Act also created a temporary agency, the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB), to ensure that the agencies complied with the Act.

In addition to records already open at NARA prior to the passing the Kennedy Act, the Collection now consists of previously withheld records of the Warren Commission, records of the Office of the Archivist, and newly released materials from the Kennedy, Johnson, and Ford Presidential Libraries. Other agency records in the Collection include records of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, records of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and a small amount of material from a variety of other agencies, including the Office of Naval Intelligence. The Collection now includes over five million pages of records.

With a very few exceptions, virtually all of the records identified as belonging to the Kennedy Collection have been opened in part or in full. Those documents that are closed in full or in part were done so in accordance with the Kennedy Act, mentioned above. According to the Act, no record could be withheld in part or in full, without the agreement of the ARRB. The guidelines for withholding records are outlined in the provisions in Section 6 of the Act. The full report of the ARRB is available online. A copy of the Act is in Adobe Acrobat PDFAppendix C of the ARRB Report mentioned above. In all cases where the ARRB agreed to withhold a record or information in a record, they stipulated a specific release date for the document. In addition, according to Section 5(g)(2)(D) of the Act, all records in the Kennedy Collection will be opened by 2017 unless certified as justifiably closed by the President of the United States.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul: My answers correspond to your numbered comments.

1. Then how do you explain Public Law 105-526 -- since all those documents/files pertain to the JFK assassination. OR is it your contention that Harry's speculations fall into a category of such enormous importance that any documents mentioning Harry or his "reports" to Grapp or whomever, on the Birch Society, on Rousselot, on Welch, on Galdabdon, and on Edwin Walker will ALL be denied?

2/3 Paul, I am the person who keeps telling you explicitly and repeatedly that more substantive documents would be filed into other file classifications -- so how am I am "overstating" anything? Furthermore, you continue to avoid the relevant question. Why has it been possible for FOIA researchers to obtain those other file classifications if they are all (or mostly) being denied? How did I (and others) get the 157-series on Edwin Walker? How did I (and others) get the 157-series on Milteer and Somersett's conversations concerning a plot to murder JFK? How did I (and others) get 157-series documents pertaining to KKK or other hate groups which relate to the JFK investigation? WHY IS HARRY DEAN THE ONE AND ONLY PERSON WHO IS SO UNIQUE AND SPECIAL?

6 You accuse me of something that is patently false. From the very beginning of our debate and as recently as message #229 this morning (above) which reports the content of my email to you, I said Harry could have provided unsolicited information to Chicago or Los Angeles. My contention remains that any SPECULATIONS by Harry regarding JBS-related persons is NOT the type of information that would ever be denied nor even redacted. In fact, I have MANY FBI files that report comments made by various sources about purported "plots". There is, for example, the alleged Edwin Walker "plot" to lead an armed rebellion if Goldwater did not win the Presidency. The FBI file on that is captioned "Alleged Klan Participation in Insurrection Plot" (all 157-series files that were classified!)

I have never "evaded" the content of anything you have stated or quoted. Instead, I have explicitly critiqued what you have written because many of your ideas about FOIA procedures or about what "classified" means are utter nonsense.

Ernie,

I reply as follows:

1. You keep denying that the FBI has classified documents about the JFK assassination that they refuse to release. You can't seem to adapt to that fact, Ernie.

Obviously, those unreleased FBI documents are of tremendous importance. I don't know what they are, and you don't know what they are -- but you keep insisting that you know that Harry Dean's reports CANNOT possibly be in there.

You are over-stating your case, Ernie, and that affects all your arguments.

I encourage you to continue trying to get more information from the FBI about Harry Dean -- I think that you will find more in the future than you have found in the past. I also think you should reconcile yourself to the fact that SOME files will never be released to anybody until the year 2038.

2/3. You are "overstating" your knowledge about what CANNOT be classified. You are certain that nothing Harry Dean told the FBI can be classified. How can you be so certain if you haven't seen it with your own eyes? You can't. That's why I say you are "overstating" your case.

Yes, some researchers have found some things -- but no researcher has ever found the material that Harry Dean has claimed he told them. You take that fact to mean that Harry is either lying or is a "lone nut." I say you're jumping to conclusions, and are not taking seriously enough all the vital information about ground-crew players in the JFK assassination that Harry's confessions link together.

How did the Milteer documents become unclassified? Possibly because they don't mention General Walker or Loran Hall -- that's probably how, in my humble opinion.

Why is Harry Dean so unique and special? Because his eye-witness knowledge identifies the ground-crew that the Warren Commission plainly knows about -- the one's they deliberately hid from the American People, blaming Lee Harvey Oswald as the "lone nut."

I say that the US Government keeps top secret files about the JFK assassination 50 years after the crime because the decision was made 50 years ago to keep them locked up for 75 years. I say that the US Government knew very well who the accomplices were to Lee Harvey Oswald on 22 November 1963. It is precisely because they knew who these accomplices were that they insisted on keeping their identities secret.

Harry Dean can identify many of those persons, and that is why key FBI documents about Harry Dean are locked up. This is my theory. It is not a delusion, it is not some marketing plan -- it has been my theory for years.

I know enough to know that I can't claim this as TRUTH, simply because I have no PROOF -- yet. But all the data that I do accumulate continues to confirm my THEORY. And those many folks who have tried to debunk my THEORY have had weak arguments. Your arguments are not strong, Ernie -- you jump to conclusions based on limited data. You should keep a more open mind, and you should count to ten before you dismiss a valuable witness.

6. You have only recently begun to admit that Harry could have provided unsolicited information to Chicago or Los Angeles, Ernie. So, please don't play the victim here.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited November 4, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

I am not backing away from describing Harry as a xxxx because he has lied (or to be as kind as humanly possible) misrepresented certain "facts". He asserts that certain named individuals were JBS members when they were not. He asserts that the LDS Church controlled the JBS when that is preposterous (and, even worse, he besmirched the entire religion and conveyed the impression that it was some kind of Jedi mind-control operation). Don't you think it is hilarious that over the course of the past 5 decades JBS critics have claimed that the JBS has been controlled by (1) Jews (2) Mormons (3) Catholics (4) the religious right and (5) a Soviet disinformation operation to neutralize legitimate anti-communists?

Paul this may come as a shock to you -- so please sit down while reading this.

This is in reply to your comment: "That would also conveniently explain why Ernie Lazar could not obtain more information about Harry Dean for so many years; it sure couldn't be that FBI files were classified."

I have never pursued FBI information "for so many years" about Harry Dean so what the hell are you talking about? What I have repeatedly told you is that there is NO information emanating from Harry Dean in any JBS-related file (HQ or field office).

Do you realize that you have created a self-sealing argument and a major logical fallacy? The absence of data becomes your "proof" that there is actually data---although hidden from public view.

IF YOU GENUINELY BELIEVE THIS CRAP -- then submit an FOIA request to the FBI with Harry's affidavit (or have him do it himself).

THEN---you can share what you discover.

NO MORE SPECULATION.

NO MORE ASSUMPTIONS.

NO MORE SINISTER THEORIES.

You will be able to FACTUALLY answer a lot of Dean-related questions in terms of what files/documents are released AND the FBI will also specify those which are being withheld AND the FBI will specify which may have been destroyed and which have been sent to NARA. [When they specify destroyed files, they usually provide the date; when they notify you of files transferred to NARA, they specify the file number -- and you can then request it there.

Ernie,

You should back away from describing anybody as a xxxx, simply on social grounds, as it is unkind and unnecessary. You should also back away from calling someone a xxxx on ethical grounds in cases where you don't have all the data (which you don't). You should also back away on policy grounds on the EDUCATION FORUM, where John Simkin has a policy that nobody calls anybody else a xxxx on this Forum, or risks expulsion (based on the simple rules of politeness).

If Harry assumed somebody was a JBS member when he was not, then I'm certain Harry would apologize if shown the true facts. Who was not a member? General Walker? Congressman Rousselot? Gabby Gabaldon? David Robinson? Loran Hall? Who?

If you refer to Harry's assumption that LDS President Ezra Taft Benson was a JBS member, that is understandable based on Benson's many public statements supporting the JBS and Robert Welch. It would surprise me to learn that Benson was not a JBS member, but that would be secondary to the fact that Benson gave tremendous support to the JBS.

I feel certain that Harry Dean would apologize for calling Ezra Taft Benson a member of the John Birch Society if somebody could produce conclusive proof that he was not -- and not merely speculation.

Harry Dean has already retreated (in his eBook) from his position that the JBS was controlled by the LDS, even though in his honest opinion it truly appeared to him for many years that it was. I can understand why -- the racist element is present yet subdued in both -- white privilege was respected (as Benson ruled that Black Americans could not be leaders in the LDS Church). It was an honest mistake for friendly Harry to make.

You keep repeating that "there is NO information emanating from Harry Dean in any JBS-related file," and yet it doesn't dawn on you that you haven't proven that you've seen each and every one of them. The logical fallacy is yours -- the supposed absence of data becomes your "proof."

Further, your harsh attitude is not very inviting to Harry Dean to submit anything at all to anybody at all. I don't believe you're sincere in your request for Harry's affidavit to the FBI -- otherwise you'd be more polite about it.

Your fantasy is that if Harry Dean requests his own files from the FBI, that the FBI will automatically give Harry all those documents -- even if they are classified top secret. You don't really see that the culprit here is the FBI. You can't seem to accept the fact that they might have withheld anything from you over the years. Yet you're clearly mistaken about that, because the FBI files about Lee Harvey Oswald are sealed from everybody.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited November 4, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

Paul: My answers correspond to your numbered comments.

1. Then how do you explain Public Law 105-526 -- since all those documents/files pertain to the JFK assassination. OR is it your contention that Harry's speculations fall into a category of such enormous importance that any documents mentioning Harry or his "reports" to Grapp or whomever, on the Birch Society, on Rousselot, on Welch, on Galdabdon, and on Edwin Walker will ALL be denied?

2/3 Paul, I am the person who keeps telling you explicitly and repeatedly that more substantive documents would be filed into other file classifications -- so how am I am "overstating" anything? Furthermore, you continue to avoid the relevant question. Why has it been possible for FOIA researchers to obtain those other file classifications if they are all (or mostly) being denied? How did I (and others) get the 157-series on Edwin Walker? How did I (and others) get the 157-series on Milteer and Somersett's conversations concerning a plot to murder JFK? How did I (and others) get 157-series documents pertaining to KKK or other hate groups which relate to the JFK investigation? WHY IS HARRY DEAN THE ONE AND ONLY PERSON WHO IS SO UNIQUE AND SPECIAL?

6 You accuse me of something that is patently false. From the very beginning of our debate and as recently as message #229 this morning (above) which reports the content of my email to you, I said Harry could have provided unsolicited information to Chicago or Los Angeles. My contention remains that any SPECULATIONS by Harry regarding JBS-related persons is NOT the type of information that would ever be denied nor even redacted. In fact, I have MANY FBI files that report comments made by various sources about purported "plots". There is, for example, the alleged Edwin Walker "plot" to lead an armed rebellion if Goldwater did not win the Presidency. The FBI file on that is captioned "Alleged Klan Participation in Insurrection Plot" (all 157-series files that were classified!)

I have never "evaded" the content of anything you have stated or quoted. Instead, I have explicitly critiqued what you have written because many of your ideas about FOIA procedures or about what "classified" means are utter nonsense.

Ernie,

I reply as follows:

1. You keep denying that the FBI has classified documents about the JFK assassination that they refuse to release. You can't seem to adapt to that fact, Ernie.

Obviously, those unreleased FBI documents are of tremendous importance. I don't know what they are, and you don't know what they are -- but you keep insisting that you know that Harry Dean's reports CANNOT possibly be in there.

You are over-stating your case, Ernie, and that affects all your arguments.

I encourage you to continue trying to get more information from the FBI about Harry Dean -- I think that you will find more in the future than you have found in the past. I also think you should reconcile yourself to the fact that SOME files will never be released to anybody until the year 2038.

2/3. You are "overstating" your knowledge about what CANNOT be classified. You are certain that nothing Harry Dean told the FBI can be classified. How can you be so certain if you haven't seen it with your own eyes? You can't. That's why I say you are "overstating" your case.

Yes, some researchers have found some things -- but no researcher has ever found the material that Harry Dean has claimed he told them. You take that fact to mean that Harry is either lying or is a "lone nut." I say you're jumping to conclusions, and are not taking seriously enough all the vital information about ground-crew players in the JFK assassination that Harry's confessions link together.

How did the Milteer documents become unclassified? Possibly because they don't mention General Walker or Loran Hall -- that's probably how, in my humble opinion.

Why is Harry Dean so unique and special? Because his eye-witness knowledge identifies the ground-crew that the Warren Commission plainly knows about -- the one's they deliberately hid from the American People, blaming Lee Harvey Oswald as the "lone nut."

I say that the US Government keeps top secret files about the JFK assassination 50 years after the crime because the decision was made 50 years ago to keep them locked up for 75 years. I say that the US Government knew very well who the accomplices were to Lee Harvey Oswald on 22 November 1963. It is precisely because they know who these accomplices were that they insisted on keeping their identities secret.

Harry Dean can identify many of those persons, and that is why key FBI documents about Harry Dean are locked up. This is my theory. It is not a delusion, it is not some marketing plan -- it has been my theory for years.

I know enough to know that I can't claim this as TRUTH, simply because I have no PROOF -- yet. But all the data that I do accumulate continues to confirm my THEORY. And those many folks who have tried to debunk my THEORY have had weak arguments. Your arguments are not strong, Ernie -- you jump to conclusions based on limited data. You should keep a more open mind, and you should count to ten before you dismiss a valuable witness.

6. You have only recently begun to admit that Harry could have provided unsolicited information to Chicago or Los Angeles, Ernie. So, please don't play the victim here.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

PAUL

1. QUOTE something I have written (as you claim) where I have denied "that the FBI has classified documents about the JFK assassination that they refuse to release." QUOTE IT -- don't merely allege it. Go back to my previous message where I gave you a "worst-case scenario" for your potential FOIA request....then admit that you just deliberately lied.

I have never said what you claim in your second sentence either. ALL I have said, for the 500th time, is that there are no documents in any JBS-related file (on the JBS or on JBS members) that are reports made by Harry or anybody who fits his description. Why do you have to deliberately lie about what I have repeatedly and emphatically written over and over and over again in order to make your argument against me???

Have I not also said, repeatedly, that I will be the first person to acknowledge it IF there ever is any change to be made in my conclusion?

2/3 -- The answer to your comment is in 3 parts: (1) the instructions contained in the FBI Declassification Manual (2) ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with obtaining FBI files via FOIA requests -- including files which contain JFK-related material -- not just my requests but also requests made by other researchers and (3) ordinary common sense:

Apparently, you believe that Harry Dean provided some sort of cosmic revelations to Wesley Grapp that were so staggering in their importance and gravity that every word ever uttered by Harry on the JBS or its members (written or verbal) is being redacted or withheld by the FBI.

But even a cursory review of actual JBS files (HQ and field) plus related files on JBS members reveals that the type of information which YOU think would be redacted or withheld is routinely released in other files --- and yes, that includes JFK-related material. According to your eBook, Wesley Grapp cavalierly dismissed Harry's initial reports about the "plot". Quoting Harry (through you), Grapp told Harry he was "overreacting" to the information he reported to Grapp and then Grapp said "It's just a lot of wishful thinking. We're flooded by these kinds of reports these days, so we can spot a pipe-dream a mile away" and then Grapp told Harry "Harry. Relax. Have a drink and forget about the whole thing."

OK Paul -- if the information was so quickly dismissed by Grapp as unworthy of serious consideration -- why do you think that the FBI would deny access to a routine memo or FD-71 which summarized what Harry told Grapp BUT nevertheless the FBI recorded all contacts it had where people made other assertions about "plots" but those other reports DO appear in FBI files that have been released? Why are we able to see what Grapp described as the "flood" of similiar reports but we are not allowed to see Harry's alleged comments anywhere?

6. A totally false assertion by you. Anybody familiar with FBI files (and I have posted HUNDREDS of them online) knows that ANYBODY could contact their local FBI office (or write to Hoover) to report unsolicited information they thought had some significance.

Paul, you have become so irrational that you expect people to state obvious facts which were never in dispute? OK, here is another obvious statement:

The FBI memorialized ALL contacts it had with the public on FBI standard form FD-71. In fact, every Special Agent in the history of the FBI was trained to use FD-71 (or comparable forms) to record the details of such unsolicited contacts.

If you review the JBS-Los Angeles field files which I have posted online you will see SCORES of these forms filled in by the Agent who took the phone call or who handled the in-person inquiries or complaints at the field office or who responded to a letter or telegram asking about the JBS or who was involved in following-up on any complaint or any information submitted to the field office about the JBS.

LASTLY -- A genuine "theory" (by definition) must be falsifiable. But you have created a NON-falsifiable theory. Every time you face EVIDENCE which diminishes what Harry asserts, you just claim "key FBI documents about Harry Dean are locked up". How convenient! So, again, the total absence of corroborating evidence becomes PROOF in your scheme of things.

Why do you want me to get "more information" about Harry from the FBI? Whatever I obtain (if it does not support your "theory") will be used by you to "prove" the existence of an even more sinister "cover-up". That is way in which all conspiracy theories are constructed, i.e. they are self-sealing and often circular arguments which automatically dismiss or de-value all contradictory evidence!!!!

[Ernie Lazar]

I am not backing away from describing Harry as a xxxx because he has lied (or to be as kind as humanly possible) misrepresented certain "facts". He asserts that certain named individuals were JBS members when they were not. He asserts that the LDS Church controlled the JBS when that is preposterous (and, even worse, he besmirched the entire religion and conveyed the impression that it was some kind of Jedi mind-control operation). Don't you think it is hilarious that over the course of the past 5 decades JBS critics have claimed that the JBS has been controlled by (1) Jews (2) Mormons (3) Catholics (4) the religious right and (5) a Soviet disinformation operation to neutralize legitimate anti-communists?

Paul this may come as a shock to you -- so please sit down while reading this.

This is in reply to your comment: "That would also conveniently explain why Ernie Lazar could not obtain more information about Harry Dean for so many years; it sure couldn't be that FBI files were classified."

I have never pursued FBI information "for so many years" about Harry Dean so what the hell are you talking about? What I have repeatedly told you is that there is NO information emanating from Harry Dean in any JBS-related file (HQ or field office).

Do you realize that you have created a self-sealing argument and a major logical fallacy? The absence of data becomes your "proof" that there is actually data---although hidden from public view.

IF YOU GENUINELY BELIEVE THIS CRAP -- then submit an FOIA request to the FBI with Harry's affidavit (or have him do it himself).

THEN---you can share what you discover.

NO MORE SPECULATION.

NO MORE ASSUMPTIONS.

NO MORE SINISTER THEORIES.

You will be able to FACTUALLY answer a lot of Dean-related questions in terms of what files/documents are released AND the FBI will also specify those which are being withheld AND the FBI will specify which may have been destroyed and which have been sent to NARA. [When they specify destroyed files, they usually provide the date; when they notify you of files transferred to NARA, they specify the file number -- and you can then request it there.

Ernie,

You should back away from describing anybody as a xxxx, simply on social grounds, as it is unkind and unnecessary. You should also back away from calling someone a xxxx on ethical grounds in cases where you don't have all the data (which you don't). You should also back away on policy grounds on the EDUCATION FORUM, where John Simkin has a policy that nobody calls anybody else a xxxx on this Forum, or risks expulsion (based on the simple rules of politeness).

If Harry assumed somebody was a JBS member when he was not, then I'm certain Harry would apologize if shown the true facts. Who was not a member? General Walker? Congressman Rousselot? Gabby Gabaldon? David Robinson? Loran Hall? Who?

If you refer to Harry's assumption that LDS President Ezra Taft Benson was a JBS member, that is understandable based on Benson's many public statements supporting the JBS and Robert Welch. It would surprise me to learn that Benson was not a JBS member, but that would be secondary to the fact that Benson gave tremendous support to the JBS.

I feel certain that Harry Dean would apologize for calling Ezra Taft Benson a member of the John Birch Society if somebody could produce conclusive proof that he was not -- and not merely speculation.

Harry Dean has already retreated (in his eBook) from his position that the JBS was controlled by the LDS, even though in his honest opinion it truly appeared to him for many years that it was. I can understand why -- the racist element is present yet subdued in both -- white privilege was respected (as Benson ruled that Black Americans could not be leaders in the LDS Church). It was an honest mistake for friendly Harry to make.

You keep repeating that "there is NO information emanating from Harry Dean in any JBS-related file," and yet it doesn't dawn on you that you haven't proven that you've seen each and every one of them. The logical fallacy is yours -- the supposed absence of data becomes your "proof."

Further, your harsh attitude is not very inviting to Harry Dean to submit anything at all to anybody at all. I don't believe you're sincere in your request for Harry's affidavit to the FBI -- otherwise you'd be more polite about it.

Your fantasy is that if Harry Dean requests his own files from the FBI, that the FBI will automatically give Harry all those documents -- even if they are classified top secret. You don't really see that the culprit here is the FBI. You can't seem to accept the fact that they might have withheld anything from you over the years. Yet you're clearly mistaken about that, because the FBI files about Lee Harvey Oswald are sealed from everybody.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

OK -- I agree with your observation that it is more polite not to use the word "xxxx". However, what frustrates me about Harry Dean is the fact he will not answer simple (yet obvious) questions AND he never has bothered to make an FOIA request on himself nor permit anybody else to do so on his behalf -- and such a request would answer a lot of current questions -- despite what you think.

You are correct: Harry ASSUMED people were JBS members -- in the same way that right-wing extremists ASSUMED that people were Communist Party members or sympathizers during the 1950's and 1960's -- when, in reality, they were not.

Quoting Harry's own words in 2005:

"Reed Benson the son of Ezra was Utah State coordinator for JBS. Former FBI agent Dan Smoot, and former Mayor of Salt Lake City W. Cleon Skousen were also JBS members. It is doubtful they ever publically admitted to JBS membership, we all knew they were 'leading', no-nonsense JBS/LDS members. Ezra, in order to take the JBS taint off the church was sent on a mission to Europe. It was at {Salt Lake, One Temple Square} the birthplace of "pseudo-{ phony}conservativism", New Americanist-ism, and it's political creation The John Birch Society began as a "combination". {Research} will expose individual LDS/JBS types that guide every branch of U.S. Government in 'the plan' suitable to LDS aims in remaking the world. These are, the Society within Society."

Cleon Skousen and Dan Smoot were NOT JBS members. But simple fact is never good enough for Harry. They became "leading members". Both were on record stating that they decided not to join the JBS. The current President of the JBS also confirmed that they were not members. In addition, an author of a major article regarding Smoot for the JBS magazine confirmed for me that Smoot never joined the JBS. In addition, Cleon's son (Paul) and other people close to Cleon have confirmed that he never joined. In fact, Paul Skousen maintains that Cleon Skousen had a falling out with the JBS over some of their "crazy" ideas.

Harry also ASSUMED that Ezra Taft Benson was a JBS member -- but I know of nothing to support that contention although his son Reed Benson was a member and its PR DIrector.

There is nothing fact-based to support Dean's contention that Robert J. Morris.was a JBS member and it strains credulity because, among other reasons, when Morris was the Chief Counsel to the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee he went out of his way to befriend Harry Overstreet and attest to his patriotism and loyalty. Morris even arranged for Overstreet to testify as a friendly witness before another Senate Committee and he described Overstreet in correspondence to me as his close personal friend.

By contrast, Robert Welch and the JBS described Overstreet as a Communist sympathizer who was spouting "pro-Communist doubletalk". Beyond that, Robert Morris was certainly aware of the FBI's position on Welch and the JBS so he knew that Hoover and senior officials within the Bureau's Domestic Intelligence Division (including Assistant Directors and Section Chiefs whom he dealt with personally over the years) all considered Welch and the JBS to be "right wing extremist", "irrational", "irresponsible", "lunatic fringe" and "fanatics".

Morris never associated himself with such right-wing extremist viewpoints. He did, however, grant an interview one time to the JBS weekly newsmagazine, Review of the News. I doubt he even knew that the Review was a JBS publication since they never advertised that fact much in the magazine itself and that magazine did not dwell upon conspiracy theories the way that other JBS publications did.

I am struck by how you dismiss Harry's LDS remarks as nothing more than an a "honest mistake by friendly Harry..." So, one can libel an entire religion and then call it an "honest mistake".. Ok Paul - thanks for clearing that up.