What's in a name?

[Greg Parker]

Here's the direct route:

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD/G/07.gif

Tom Kutzer Posted Today, 04:53 AM

  the "Gut Hoffen" sig.....

spot.acorn.net/ jfkplace/03/JD/JD-G.html

- Tom Kutzer & Mark Knight.

Thanks Tom and Mark for posting the links. That is is the one for Oswald signed "Gut Schieffer". It is not the Hidell "Good Hoffen" one.

This, I believe, gives the best view of the sig on the Hidell card:

www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0355a.htm

That's apparently the 1960 Oswald draft card that Greg referred to. And the signature is so scribbled it looks like it can be read two ways: It can say Gut Hoffen, or it can say Gut Schiffer.

Ron, it's not the same card. This one is in the name of "Hidell", and was allegedly in the arrest wallet.

According to WC expert witness, Alwyn Cole, it looked like "Good Hoffer". I believe however, it is "Hoffen".

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, returning for a moment to the face of Commission Exhibit No. 795, in your previous testimony, as I recall it, you stated that while you could not make out precisely the signature of the member or clerk of local board, it appeared to be the name Good Hoffer, is that correct?

Mr. COLE That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did that appear to be one word or two words?

Mr. COLE. It appears to me to be two words or two names, capital G-o-o-d, and then the name capital H-o-f-f-e-r.

Ron, Greg

The draft card shown may be a lgegitimate card for Lee Harvey Oswald. I could accept the fact that a man who officially got out of the Marines on Sept. 11, 1959 may not have had his "new" draft card issued till perhaps Feb. 4, 1960. This card would be issued only after his local draft board would have been notified of a change in circumstances for the bearer of the card. I would assume that card would have been sent to his mother and he may have obtained it when he returned to the US.

The reason I believe that this is a plausible explanation for this card is the "IV-A" classification. This classification is for "Registrant with sufficient prior active service or who is a sole surviving son." Oswald would fall into this category.

In 1960's America it was not unusual for employers to request a man of "draft age" for his draft card. If a person was "draft bait" (likly to be drafted soon) they would be less likely to hire and train them for a job of substance. A person who had completed their time in the military or was not subject to military service would have a better chance of attaining employment.

A draft card for an alias would also be needed for the same reason.

- Jim Root

Jim, good points.

Hi Greg,

"hoffen" does not mean luck, it means" to hope", luck in german is "Glück".

- George Bollschweiler

George,

thanks for correction. Just looked it up in a German - English dictionary. Apparently can also mean "(to) trust"?

Hi Antti

I think you're absolutely right, as the old "s" looks like "f" and can easily be mistaken as a "f". As you sugguested, it could mean "good shooter", something that would point to LHO's sharp-shooter training in the marines.

as a good example, on the last line the first word is Unterstützung means support.

- George Bollschweiler

George and Antti - sound like you may have something there! Well done.

If the card is legit, as Jim suggests, it would not have a prank signature. I think we may be reading a "Gut" that isn't there. If legit, the card was apparently signed by someone whose first name began with a G and who had a German surname.

Ron

Ron, of your two options, "prank" is the only reasonable one. Consider if other options may exist.

Cole, by the way, believed the Oswald card was signed "Schiffen" with the first name starting with either E or G.

[Ron Ecker]

Ron, it's not the same card. This one is in the name of "Hidell", and was allegedly in the arrest wallet.

Greg,

It's the same card, but the reproduction in Groden's book is much clearer and lighter than the WC exhibit, but the signature has been whited out or otherwise obliterated someway, leaving only enough of a trace to tell that a signature was there.

I have no idea why this difference exists or what it means.

Ron

[Mark Knight]

I have a suggestion: Since local draft boards were made up of local people appointed to represent the Selevtive Service System, can we not locate a roster of the local board for the counties in and around Dallas in 1960, in order to ascertain whether or not there was a member of the board whose name may have approximated what is on the draft cards? While I haven't usually had much luck with 'net searches for such mundane data, perhaps someone can find a local source, in or around Dallas, such as a newspaper file/library/morgue, or whatever they call 'em these days. In my hometown in Indiana, in the 1960's an appointment to the local draft board was considered to have a little bit of prestige, and often came with a photo op for the local newspaper. Not sure if it was quite as big a deal in "Big D," but I would assume that draft board appointments would warrant at least a mention in the newspaper.

Knowing who served on the local draft board in February of 1960 might go a long way toward clearing this up...but then, I suppose I'm stating the obvious.

[Jim Root]

Mark

Good point but I believe that Oswald's mother lived in Fort Worth at the time (Tarrant County) and his mothers address would have been his forwarding address following his departure from the Marines on a hardship bais to look after her. Most draft boards are county operations hence the need for searching in Tarrant County. I did a quick google and could not find the obvious but I believe you are on the right track with your thoughts.

A "draft board" would still be in existance today (18 year olds still must register) and it would seem plausible that a history of the members of previous boards would be available somewhere. (Historically it is not unusual to find judges sitting on draft boards)

Good hunting,

Jim Root

[Greg Parker]

Ron, it's not the same card. This one is in the name of "Hidell", and was allegedly in the arrest wallet.

Greg,

It's the same card, but the reproduction in Groden's book is much clearer and lighter than the WC exhibit, but the signature has been whited out or otherwise obliterated someway, leaving only enough of a trace to tell that a signature was there.

I have no idea why this difference exists or what it means.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron, apologies -- firstly for this, and secondly for forgetting to acknowledge your earlier correction as to what document bore the "Drittal" sig.

My posting time is extremely limited, and in trying to respond to all in one go, I seem to have gotten myself somewhat confused.

As I've pointed out earlier, the WC expert thought that the Hidell signiture was "Good Hoffer" and and the Oswald card was E or G "Schiffen". To my eye, the first is "Good Hoffer" and the latter is "Gut Schieffer". I'll allow I could be wrong in those interpretations, and also admit I'm more confident re the first than the latter.

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

If not, I think it strengthens the case that they were German words chosen for a specific reason. The use of "DF Drittal" (durst fur dritte/on behalf of a third party)

in regard to ordering a weapon is staggering in its possible ramifications - IF I am correct about it to start with. Precedents in using German words as surnames (if that is what they were eg Schiiffer, Hoffen) only bolster my claims about Drittal.

[Greg Parker]

Mark

Good point but I believe that Oswald's mother lived in Fort Worth at the time (Tarrant County) and his mothers address would have been his forwarding address following his departure from the Marines on a hardship bais to look after her.  Most draft boards are county operations hence the need for searching in Tarrant County.  I did a quick google and could not find the obvious but I believe you are on the right track with your thoughts.

A "draft board" would still be in existance today (18 year olds still must register) and it would seem plausible that a history of the members of previous boards would be available somewhere.  (Historically it is not unusual to find judges sitting on draft boards)

Good hunting,

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim, I believe you are correct. The Oswald card was issued by local board 114 (Fort Worth). The Hidell card suggests board 224. Have been unable to find out where that was/is.

[George Bollschweiler]

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

Hi Greg

there is no doubt, that SCHIEFFER and HOFFER are common names in german. Now if we take that “f” and “s” problem concerning the old handwriting it could also stay for SCHIESSER and HOSSER which are common names as well.

The name SCHIFFEN as a surname does not exist as far as I checked (German directories) and if you change it to SCHISSEN there is no match either. The word “Schiss” does exists but it means

“fear” (slang) and even another expression I rather not mention here.

HOFFEN as name it is not impossible but again there is no match (Directories), where HOSSEN is a normal name.

Now, what about DRITTAL, the word actually exists but it is an old word for “a third” but sure no surname. The old writing for "s" could also be mistaken for a "t", especially if it is a handwriting. So if you change the “t” and instead write “s” we would have the name DRISSAL and there I found matches even in the States. So the name could have been DF Drissal?

e.g.

Do you maybe have enhanced copy of that card so I could check with some old writings?

George

Edited August 9, 2005 by George Bollschweiler

[John Dolva]

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

Hi Greg

there is no doubt, that SCHIEFFER and HOFFER are common names in german. Now if we take that “f” and “s” problem concerning the old handwriting it could also stay for SCHIESSER and HOSSER which are common names as well.

The name SCHIFFEN as a surname does not exist as far as I checked (German directories) and if you change it to SCHISSEN there is no match either. The word “Schiss” does exists but it means

“fear” (slang) and even another expression I rather not mention here.

HOFFEN as name it is not impossible but again there is no match (Directories), where HOSSEN is a normal name.

Now, what about DRITTAL, the word actually exists but it is an old word for “a third” but sure no surname. The old writing for "s" could also be mistaken for a "t", especially if it is a handwriting. So if you change the “t” and instead write “s” we would have the name DRISSAL and there I found matches even in the States. So the name could have been DF Drissal?

e.g.

Do you maybe have enhanced copy of that card so I could check with some old writings?

George

(image)

I think one can see a L. H. Oswald in Lee's handwriting under the scrawly A. J. Hidell

Also the usually read D F Drittal could very well be J F Drittal, scrub the PO and there's the J ( I also think the 8 is a 3 as it should be for Lee.)

from Roberts topic "The Other Oswald['s]" : Fritz Dieter Jaeger? Dieter apparently means something like 'peoples army'

Is this an attempt to link the rifle which was clearly ordered by a A J Hidell to a revolver that was possibly ordered by a L. H. Oswald? I know it's a bit far out and speculative, but perhaps a german speaker could make something more of it?

Edited November 16, 2006 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

Does this make sense at all?

"I think what it looks like is that A (J) Hidell is a means whereby Oswalds mail etc can be intercepted. For example if one wished to switch pistols on him then the alias allows an unknown to do so. Particularly if that someone is within the PO dept. So then a pistol that Oswald is arrested with could then be replaced with an identical one which is infact the one he ordered in the first place but never had. The identical one which matches the purchase order S/N then is the 'drop gun' and the one Oswald actually had ends up in a bag drop some distance away a day after the assassination. IOW back in the loop but 'laundered'. ??? This would make his execution early on essential as dead he cannot answer questions that only he may have a provable answer to? ie. he needed to be silenced, not because he had betrayed anyone etc, but because the case against him is only 'watertight' if he is dead. He may not have had any idea about any funny business re the pistol(s) and if he knew he hadn't killed Tippit, then he would react to an attempt to get him for that as a setup by the DPD which he was confident wouldn't work because he knew his gun hadn't fired the shots. However by the time came around to that, he would begin to understand his pistol had been swapped and the double blind was far more than he (or anyone) thought. Therefore he would also realise he had a solid defense by going back to the pistols origin and supplying its details as known by him (pick up, signing forms etc) and thus walk free. Therefore his death was inevitable. Without it the conspirators were highly vulnerable."

Where is the carton the pistol arrived in when Oswald picked it up? What about a delivery receipt signed by him (or anyone for that matter) for either the pistol or the rifle? Do these exist? If so where can one view a copy? If not....?

[Thomas Graves]

Where is the carton the pistol arrived in when Oswald picked it up?

______________________________

John,

Why would LHO, or anyone else for that matter, keep the carton instead of just throwing it away?

--Thomas

______________________________

[John Dolva]

Michael, I understand what you mean, and an answer of 'at the dump' is good enough for me.

Lee appears to have had a poor persons habits of reuse and a good clean box with a lid (if that is what the pistol came in) can be a good thing to have. Possibly more so mid last century. I've no idea if he kept it or dumped it. So far, in searching through the WC Report I have found nothing to indicate he picked up the pistol or the rifle like a signed receipt, or a labeled shipping container.

[Thomas Graves]

Michael, I understand what you mean, and an answer of 'at the dump' is good enough for me.

Lee appears to have had a poor persons habits of reuse and a good clean box with a lid (if that is what the pistol came in) can be a good thing to have. Possibly more so mid last century. I've no idea if he kept it or dumped it. So far, in searching through the WC Report I have found nothing to indicate he picked up the pistol or the rifle like a signed receipt, or a labeled shipping container.

_______________________________________

John,

"Michael"?? How did you know my biological middle name?! LOL My original name was Thomas Michael Mahon. I didn't find that out until '87...

--Thomas

_______________________________________

[John Dolva]

Michael, I understand what you mean, and an answer of 'at the dump' is good enough for me.

Lee appears to have had a poor persons habits of reuse and a good clean box with a lid (if that is what the pistol came in) can be a good thing to have. Possibly more so mid last century. I've no idea if he kept it or dumped it. So far, in searching through the WC Report I have found nothing to indicate he picked up the pistol or the rifle like a signed receipt, or a labeled shipping container.

_______________________________________

John,

"Michael"?? How did you know my biological middle name?! LOL My original name was Thomas Michael Mahon. I didn't find that out until '87...

--Thomas

_______________________________________

Oops, my apologies, Thomas, my mind was momentarily on another matter. Still, an amusing coincidence.

[John Dolva]

Does this make sense at all?

"I think what it looks like is that A (J) Hidell is a means whereby Oswalds mail etc can be intercepted. For example if one wished to switch pistols on him then the alias allows an unknown to do so. Particularly if that someone is within the PO dept. So then a pistol that Oswald is arrested with could then be replaced with an identical one which is infact the one he ordered in the first place but never had. The identical one which matches the purchase order S/N then is the 'drop gun' and the one Oswald actually had ends up in a bag drop some distance away a day after the assassination. IOW back in the loop but 'laundered'. ??? This would make his execution early on essential as dead he cannot answer questions that only he may have a provable answer to? ie. he needed to be silenced, not because he had betrayed anyone etc, but because the case against him is only 'watertight' if he is dead. He may not have had any idea about any funny business re the pistol(s) and if he knew he hadn't killed Tippit, then he would react to an attempt to get him for that as a setup by the DPD which he was confident wouldn't work because he knew his gun hadn't fired the shots. However by the time came around to that, he would begin to understand his pistol had been swapped and the double blind was far more than he (or anyone) thought. Therefore he would also realise he had a solid defense by going back to the pistols origin and supplying its details as known by him (pick up, signing forms etc) and thus walk free. Therefore his death was inevitable. Without it the conspirators were highly vulnerable."

Where is the carton the pistol arrived in when Oswald picked it up? What about a delivery receipt signed by him (or anyone for that matter) for either the pistol or the rifle? Do these exist? If so where can one view a copy? If not....?

Apart from the police producing the pistol with the same S/N as sent to A. J. Hidell is there anything to prove Lee ever had that pistol?

[John Dolva]

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

Hi Greg

there is no doubt, that SCHIEFFER and HOFFER are common names in german. Now if we take that “f” and “s” problem concerning the old handwriting it could also stay for SCHIESSER and HOSSER which are common names as well.

The name SCHIFFEN as a surname does not exist as far as I checked (German directories) and if you change it to SCHISSEN there is no match either. The word “Schiss” does exists but it means

“fear” (slang) and even another expression I rather not mention here.

HOFFEN as name it is not impossible but again there is no match (Directories), where HOSSEN is a normal name.

Now, what about DRITTAL, the word actually exists but it is an old word for “a third” but sure no surname. The old writing for "s" could also be mistaken for a "t", especially if it is a handwriting. So if you change the “t” and instead write “s” we would have the name DRISSAL and there I found matches even in the States. So the name could have been DF Drissal?

e.g.

Do you maybe have enhanced copy of that card so I could check with some old writings?

George

(image)

I think one can see a L. H. Oswald in Lee's handwriting under the scrawly A. J. Hidell. The L H. is obvious and the Oswald (Lee did put the O in a lower position) fits and there is a outline of the other letters inwhat at fist looks like a messy scribble.

Also the usually read D F Drittal could very well be J F Drittal, scrub the PO and there's the J ( I also think the 8 is a 3 as it should be for Lee.)

from Roberts topic "The Other Oswald['s]" : Fritz Dieter Jaeger? Fort Worth. Oswald did say in interview he got the pistol in Fort Worth.

Perhaps a german member can make something more of it. Names of immigrants are often changed, misspelt etc.

Edited November 17, 2006 by John Dolva