Coka Cola Man

[Jack White]

After closely studying the Moorman Photo in the course of an exchange about Classic Gunman, I began to feel that I was seeing more images behind the wall. I sought Jack's help with getting "the best quality Moorman photo obtainable." I was surprised to realize that I couldn't intelligently answer his questions: "Which version? There are several. The early Zippo print without the thumbprint? Early wire service prints with pedestal cropped out? Later wire service prints? My copies made from the original? Gordon Smith copy from original, etc. etc. etc.? All are different." So I'm seizing this opportunity for clarification and/or an assist from Bill Miller regarding which version is the purest (perhaps "rawest" would be better, knowing Jack's position about tampering). I also question the thumbprint: how can there be versions without it?

Tim, I think I can answer your questions. Some of what I am about to tell you has been passed on to me via Robert Groden. If I remember it correctly ... Robert said that the clearest Moorman print that he had ever seen was an 8 x 10 print that Josiah Thompson had. Josiah's 1st genration print was made from a 'copy negative' made right from the original Moorman photograph. Robert then made a copy negative from the 1st generation print that Josiah had at the time. It was that copy negative that Robert made that was passed on to Jack White which was then used to retrieve the Badge Man images.

Sometime down the road someone had placed their thumb on the original Moorman photograph and their thumb lifted some of the coating off the photo, thus leaving behind a thumb print. So prints and copy negatives made before this time would not show a thumb print on the photo and copy negatives and prints made after the fact do show the damage. FWIW ... Groden also has told me that he made several copy negatives from various prints. However, the best print he tells me was one in particular that was owned by Josiah Thompson, who also has had several diferent levels of quality prints in his possession over time. The 'Drum Scan' is one such example which shows an inferior image compared to the copy negative Jack used in the Badge Man work.

Bill

I congratulate Miller on the complete accuracy** of what he

says above. One print from Thompson and one print

from Weisberg were very good quality, and were used

for badgeman studies. Gary Mack and I labeled prints

that Gary had collected by quality. Thus Thompson 1 was

the best Thompson print and Weisberg 1 was the best

print from Harold (which unfortunately was marred by

some purple rubberstamp ink). Gary gathered about 10

prints. The first in the timeline we called the Zippo print,

because it includes a zippo lighter next to the Polaroid.

It is unique, because it was taken before the thumbprint

was applied; it is also very grainy because of small negative

size. I am attaching a copy of the Zippo print.

At some point Thompson selected his "best print"

and had a professional "drum scan" made of it. The quality

of the drum scan is miserable.

Jack

**to be completely accurate, Robert furnished not a print,

but a slide, and not to me...but to Gary Mack. Gary was

looking at the slide on a large screen monitor, and saw

the badgeman image, or as he would say the Badge Man

image. Gary passed the slide on to me, and I copied it

and made a print of optimal exposure.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Jack White

[John Dolva]

Jack, could you post an actual copy of the Zippo version (or a link) please (in a format that actually captures its full values)

[Jack White]

Jack, could you post an actual copy of the Zippo version (or a link) please (in a format that actually captures its full values)

John...I have dozens of scans. This one may be as good as any.

Jack

[John Dolva]

Thank you very much for that Jack.

[Craig Lamson]

After closely studying the Moorman Photo in the course of an exchange about Classic Gunman, I began to feel that I was seeing more images behind the wall. I sought Jack's help with getting "the best quality Moorman photo obtainable." I was surprised to realize that I couldn't intelligently answer his questions: "Which version? There are several. The early Zippo print without the thumbprint? Early wire service prints with pedestal cropped out? Later wire service prints? My copies made from the original? Gordon Smith copy from original, etc. etc. etc.? All are different." So I'm seizing this opportunity for clarification and/or an assist from Bill Miller regarding which version is the purest (perhaps "rawest" would be better, knowing Jack's position about tampering). I also question the thumbprint: how can there be versions without it?

Tim, I think I can answer your questions. Some of what I am about to tell you has been passed on to me via Robert Groden. If I remember it correctly ... Robert said that the clearest Moorman print that he had ever seen was an 8 x 10 print that Josiah Thompson had. Josiah's 1st genration print was made from a 'copy negative' made right from the original Moorman photograph. Robert then made a copy negative from the 1st generation print that Josiah had at the time. It was that copy negative that Robert made that was passed on to Jack White which was then used to retrieve the Badge Man images.

Sometime down the road someone had placed their thumb on the original Moorman photograph and their thumb lifted some of the coating off the photo, thus leaving behind a thumb print. So prints and copy negatives made before this time would not show a thumb print on the photo and copy negatives and prints made after the fact do show the damage. FWIW ... Groden also has told me that he made several copy negatives from various prints. However, the best print he tells me was one in particular that was owned by Josiah Thompson, who also has had several diferent levels of quality prints in his possession over time. The 'Drum Scan' is one such example which shows an inferior image compared to the copy negative Jack used in the Badge Man work.

Bill

I congratulate Miller on the complete accuracy** of what he

says above. One print from Thompson and one print

from Weisberg were very good quality, and were used

for badgeman studies. Gary Mack and I labeled prints

that Gary had collected by quality. Thus Thompson 1 was

the best Thompson print and Weisberg 1 was the best

print from Harold (which unfortunately was marred by

some purple rubberstamp ink). Gary gathered about 10

prints. The first in the timeline we called the Zippo print,

because it includes a zippo lighter next to the Polaroid.

It is unique, because it was taken before the thumbprint

was applied; it is also very grainy because of small negative

size. I am attaching a copy of the Zippo print.

At some point Thompson selected his "best print"

and had a professional "drum scan" made of it. The quality

of the drum scan is miserable.

Jack

**to be completely accurate, Robert furnished not a print,

but a slide, and not to me...but to Gary Mack. Gary was

looking at the slide on a large screen monitor, and saw

the badgeman image, or as he would say the Badge Man

image. Gary passed the slide on to me, and I copied it

and made a print of optimal exposure.

Just a point of record here. Thompson did not have his "best print" "drum scanned". Jack is blowing smoke. Thompson had the copy NEGATIVE of the Moorman original print that was made for him in 1967 scanned on a drum scanner at 2400dpi. Its pretty clear that White has little or no knowelege of the drum scan process nor experience using materials created on the drum scanner. The drum scan of the Thompson Moorman negative is an excellent digital representation of the negative scanned to film grain level.

It was scanned without any post production applied to the resulting file and as such needs contrast and density modification to produce the best possible image. It should be noted that this is exactly what happens in a darkroom when a print is made from a negative. It should also be noted that the negative Thompson had drum scanned was the negative used to make the print that White and Mack examined and as such has the same information and details as the resulting print.

[Jack White]

I know about drum scans. I have purchased drum scans from

several local providers.

Thompson had numerous Moorman images (and I suppose negatives

also). We have no assurance that the negative chosen for the

drum scan was the negative that the Thompson 1 print was made

from.

The quality of the drum scan was pisspoor. See attached.

Jack

[Alan Healy]

The alleged "Coke bottle" in the only clear image of it

shows it was almost at the very end of the concrete wall.

Jack

You know, I had the feeling for a while that this bottle might be just an illusion.

I'm still not 100% convinced on it but the way the "object" appears to be leaning to the right in that Towner photo & knowing the shape of the top of the wall with its chamfered crown, it kinda tells me that it was sitting on the inside of the south facing wall(the dog-leg).

Topothewall

Also Jack, you would do us all a great service if you could post for us the best/biggest version of the blow-ups you studied.

I was hoping you might have something the size of what we see you handling in "TMWKK" available.

All I have seen in the past is this small crop.

Do you have something better that you could share with us?

Alan

[Jack White]

When Gary Mack went his separate "way", he took my hand colored

original which was about 12x18. All I had left was slide copies of it.

Jack

(By the way, the large print was a DRUM SCAN made by a local

firm, GLOBAL GRAPHICS)

[Craig Lamson]

deleted

Edited February 10, 2006 by Craig Lamson

[Alan Healy]

When Gary Mack went his separate "way", he took my hand colored

original which was about 12x18. All I had left was slide copies of it.

Jack

(By the way, the large print was a DRUM SCAN made by a local

firm, GLOBAL GRAPHICS)

Jack, thank you.

That crop I posted is about 25kb & it's all I'm left with.

If you have anything better to hand I could really use it.

Do you happen to recognise it?

Where this un-colored crop came from I mean.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

Craig,

do you not see how Tinks scan seems blurred & out of focus when compared to what Jack & Gary studied?

It seems obvious to me which would be the better one to study.

Am I missing something in your opinion?

Alan

[Lee Forman]

Yep.

[Jack White]

When Gary Mack went his separate "way", he took my hand colored

original which was about 12x18. All I had left was slide copies of it.

Jack

(By the way, the large print was a DRUM SCAN made by a local

firm, GLOBAL GRAPHICS)

Jack, thank you.

That crop I posted is about 25kb & it's all I'm left with.

If you have anything better to hand I could really use it.

Do you happen to recognise it?

Where this un-colored crop came from I mean.

Alan

Yes...it came from me. I will look tomorrow and find the best copy

of it I have scanned and will post it. However, Gary Mack kept

most of my badgeman prints...but I do have negs and slides.

If not already scanned, it may take me a while to locate something.

Jack

[Craig Lamson]

Craig,

do you not see how Tinks scan seems blurred & out of focus when compared to what Jack & Gary studied?

It seems obvious to me which would be the better one to study.

Am I missing something in your opinion?

Alan

Alan if you are refering to the crop of the "badgeman" alteration you posted, you are very confused.

Your crop is not a clear and sharp Moorman print, but rather a darkroom manipulation that APPEARS to be sharp and clear. It is neither. During the copy and printing process Jack has increased the exposure and contrast until tones from the original have been blown away or compressed to give the appearence of sharpness and detail. To understand exactly how much detail has been lost simply look at the detail of the wall below the supposed figure of badgeman. It's gone. A full frame print of the Moorman exposed and printed like the badgeman crop would look horrible.

Now here is the most imortant point. The polaroid film combined with a so-so lens that was stopped down to near f90 (and thus diffraction liimited...do a google on that) cannot produce the level of sharpness and detail that Jack shows in his Moorman alteration.

Now if the camera/film combo can't resolve that level of detail, where did it come from in Jacks badgeman alteration?

Edited February 10, 2006 by Craig Lamson

[Bill Miller]

Jack..Could you confirm to Miller that your time spent in obtaining the final Badgeman result as we know it was limited and had a deadline finishing time,he disputes this,and also confirm that the coka cola man figure in question in this post was not a matter of study on the Badgeman project.I have read quotes by Gary stating that the time was limited.Correct me on both counts if i am wrong.Thanks..

Duncan

Duncan, while you await only after the fact to seek an answer to your already asserted claim ... let me share what Mack told me concerning the time frame he and Jack had to study the Moorman photo.

"Duncan's statement is false. Jack White and I studied the Badge Man images for more than two years beginning in 1982 and continuing ever since. During that time, we acquired several different copies, the Thompson prints and, ultimately, the original Polaroid."

Lee..Could you confirm to Miller that the scan i used for my enhancement was a top quality high resolution scan as provided by yourself,and not a degraded copy as he implies over and over again having no knowledge of any of my sources..Thanks.

Duncan

Duncan, you appear to know very little about such things. For instance, you can scan an image at a million DPI and it isn't going to mean a thing if you are scanning a poor quailty print to start with. I use the Drum Scan as an example. The Thompson Drum scan was scanned at 2400 DPI which shows the emulsion grain on the picture quite remarkably well, but when it comes to definition ... Jack has already addressed it with the Badge Man comparison. Another comparison would be to compare the Hat Man area between the two prints. In Groden's book "TKOAP" and Josiah's book "Six seconds in Dallas" the definition of the Hat man is quite sharp, yet the drum scan DOES NOT show Hat Man at all. All one will find in his place on the drum scan is a fuzzy blob. I have in the past posted an animation showing the two images over the top of one another ... there is no comparison.

Jesus..after all that repetative blurb about posting enhancements taken from quality images..just look at the crap YOU have just posted...Unbelievable hipocracy...Wow!!!!!

Duncan

Duncan, if you are talking about the Badge Man area I posted a couple of pages ago - I used YOUR example. All I did was adjust the contrast slightly and referenced where your alleged soda drinking man was located in comparison to the RR worker. I showed the two locations in response to YOU saying that they were in different areas on the picture while implying that White and Mack had not taken the time to study that area carefully.

Len,

You are correct about keeping personal fueds out of this thread I have no qualms with Miller as a person,i don't know him personally.I merely object to his self fame seeking obsession and know it all he is correct all the time attitude.Thanks for keeping track of the figures..very useful.

Duncan

Duncan, it is always the same theme ... using poor muddy B&W images over the better prints is nothing more than pouring gas onto the ground and trying to find shapes in all the color swirls. Understanding this concept is not 'knowing it all', but rather having an ounce of sense and being a responsible researcher. I didn't invent that rule ... I am merely the messenger.

Bill Miller

JFK assasination researcher/investigator

Edited February 10, 2006 by Bill Miller