Lyman L Lemnitzer.

[Harry J.Dean]

There would have been no need for Northwoods, which was generated in early 1962 as part of the desperation over Cuba. It's very likely Nixon would have made sure the Bay of Pigs succeeded, sending in Marines if necessary. Then the Cuba problem wouild have been "solved" early in his term.

It was my impression that even under Ike the idea behind the BOP was that US involvement was supposed to be covert and it was meant to appear as an autonomous group of Cubans and was based on the premise Cubans on the island would rise up against Castro. The amount of troops need to take over Cuba against the will of the people would have been enormous, I doubt even Nixon would have done so without a casus belli.

Leaders of the {LDS/JBS rebellion were advising their legions by the following;...

LDS as in Church of the Latter Day Saints? You think the Mormons were involved in a coup plot with the Birchers?

Hi, Len

To answer your question{s} please see Memoirs of, Harry J. Dean

under JFK Forum Index.

[Rex Bradford]

There would have been no need for Northwoods, which was generated in early 1962 as part of the desperation over Cuba. It's very likely Nixon would have made sure the Bay of Pigs succeeded, sending in Marines if necessary. Then the Cuba problem wouild have been "solved" early in his term.

It was my impression that even under Ike the idea behind the BOP was that US involvement was supposed to be covert and it was meant to appear as an autonomous group of Cubans and was based on the premise Cubans on the island would rise up against Castro. The amount of troops need to take over Cuba against the will of the people would have been enormous, I doubt even Nixon would have done so without a casus belli.

Perhaps I shouldn't have stated my reply so forcefully, as it was an opinion only. It's true it was always planned as a "covert" exile operation. But Castro's security services were increasing in power beyond the ability of an exile force to deal with, and there are indications this was recognized at the time (though not in the White House). It's my belief that Nixon would have found a way to make a successful invasion happen, including sending in Marines.

On a related note, I recently read a CIA internal history interview with Sam Halpern, who after reading the I.G. Report on the Bay of Pigs was convinced that Bissell had to have planned on Castro's assassination at the Bay of Pigs, or else that Bissell believed Kennedy would have had to send in the Marines when things went to hell. He couldn't see any other rational reason for Bissell's actions in not fighting against the change of venue, and for air support, etc.

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

I found this on SourceWatch. The last sentence interested me. I hadn't known about Lyman's work for

FORD'S 1975 COMMISION ON CIA ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE US

Interesting selection, made by an interestring selector, at an interesting time.

Anyone know more about this?

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Prior to the Kennedy assassination, Lemnitzer had been implicated in an investigation into extreme right-wing and anti-communist/pro-Israel hardliner connections in the Defense Department which had already forced the resignation of several Pentagon officials, including one who'd been caught handing out John Birch Society literature while on assignment overseas. The conclusions called for further extensive investigation of Lemnitzer to determine just how far his connections ran, but these were never carried out. This has led some to suspect a DoD, rather than CIA, involvement in the death of JFK. Ironically (or not), in 1975 the retired General Lemnitzer was appointed by Gerald R. Ford to the Commission on CIA Activities within the United States.

Retrieved from "http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Lyman_L._Lemnitzer"

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[Len Colby]

Prior to the Kennedy assassination, Lemnitzer had been implicated in an investigation into extreme right-wing and anti-communist/pro-Israel hardliner connections in the Defense Department which had already forced the resignation of several Pentagon officials, including one who'd been caught handing out John Birch Society literature while on assignment overseas.

This part doesn't make sense to me the "extreme right" JBS/ Liberty Lobby etc. was an is extremely anti-Semitic and thus strongly anti-Israel.

[William Kelly]

Stephen

How similar our hypothesis.

LEMNITZER, as joint naval chief of staff, was furious with Kennedy and had all information concerning the Addison's, the cortisone, the adultery, the Mary Meyer information as well as the WWII era JFK material.

A finding of executive incapacity cannot be ruled out, and Lemay with Lemnitzer would only need grudging assent from general taylor...............looks like a military coup more than a CIA thing,

although tedshackley was involved and dickhelms covered it up,

it seems the roots are here in the armed forces staff chiefs, JFK's militant reactionary opponents.

Shanet, Kennedy's thoughts on the matter.

JFK's former shipmate and SecNav (?) Paul Fay (Pleasure of His Company) asked the President if a coup d'etat could take place in the United States, Kennedy replied, "Yes, if three conditions were met. One, if there was a young, inexperienced president in office. Two, if there was an incidnet like the Bay of Pigs, and then, if there was another event similar to the Bay of Pigs, then it could happen. But it won't happen on my watch."

BK

[Guest Stephen Turner]

In April 1961 Gen Edwin walker was fired from his post by President Kennedy. He was accused of encouraging far right wing elements within his command, and distributing JBS/KKK propaganda to the troops, he was, at this time, a member of both the JBS, and the KKK. Senators including Albert Gore ® suspected that Chief of staff Lemnitzer was was also involved with Walkers extremist right wing beliefs.

Nat, is this what you mean?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I found this on SourceWatch. The last sentence interested me. I hadn't known about Lyman's work for

FORD'S 1975 COMMISION ON CIA ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE US

Interesting selection, made by an interestring selector, at an interesting time.

Anyone know more about this?

In 1975, President Ford appoints Lemnitzer to the Rockerfeller Committee, which looked specifically into persistant allegations that E Howard Hunt, and Frank Sturgis were CIA agents, and were present in Dallas at the time of the assassination. So Ford (W/C) gets Lemnitzer (Northwoods) to whitewash Sturgis (Cuban exile, terrorist) nice touch!!

Lemnitzer also served on the influential Committee on the present danger, along with other luminaries, Major General J Singlaub (Coca Contra) US Ambassador Clare Booth Luce, and ultra hawk Paul H Nitze.

[Mark Stapleton]

Prior to the Kennedy assassination, Lemnitzer had been implicated in an investigation into extreme right-wing and anti-communist/pro-Israel hardliner connections in the Defense Department which had already forced the resignation of several Pentagon officials, including one who'd been caught handing out John Birch Society literature while on assignment overseas.

This part doesn't make sense to me the "extreme right" JBS/ Liberty Lobby etc. was an is extremely anti-Semitic and thus strongly anti-Israel.

Ah, you slipped one in there, Len. There's no rule book which says 'right wing' and 'pro-Israel' are mutually exclusive, to my knowledge.

Lemnitzer is a strong candidate as a conspirator, IMO, for all the aforementioned reasons. As NATO chief he could be implicated in any French or other European connection, if there was one.

[Len Colby]

Ah, you slipped one in there, Len. There's no rule book which says 'right wing' and 'pro-Israel' are mutually exclusive, to my knowledge.

Mark the extreme right were and are a subset of the larger rightwing movement or perhaps even a separate movement, they accused Ike and other Republicans of being "Communist agents".

Perhaps there were one or two small Jewish groups or a couple that had a few Jewish members but the extreme right in the late 50’s early 60’s was overwhelmingly anti-Semitic and consequentially anti-Israel. Groups that weren’t anti-Semitic would probably had been put off by the fact that it was governed by Socialists. Can you cite any extreme right groups from that period that were pro-Israel? Even if such groups existed they would have been a small minority and Lemnitzer would have had no reason ally himself with them to the exclusion of the larger movement.

Israel becoming a cause celebre among the right is a relatively recent development which came about with the advent of the neo-cons which happened around the same time as a pronounced rightward shift of Jews in Israel, America and elsewhere. But even now extreme right groups to the right of the neo-cons are still ardently anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.

[Mark Stapleton]

Ah, you slipped one in there, Len. There's no rule book which says 'right wing' and 'pro-Israel' are mutually exclusive, to my knowledge.

Mark the extreme right were and are a subset of the larger rightwing movement or perhaps even a separate movement, they accused Ike and other Republicans of being "Communist agents".

Perhaps there were one or two small Jewish groups or a couple that had a few Jewish members but the extreme right in the late 50’s early 60’s was overwhelmingly anti-Semitic and consequentially anti-Israel. Groups that weren’t anti-Semitic would probably had been put off by the fact that it was governed by Socialists. Can you cite any extreme right groups from that period that were pro-Israel? Even if such groups existed they would have been a small minority and Lemnitzer would have had no reason ally himself with them to the exclusion of the larger movement.

Israel becoming a cause celebre among the right is a relatively recent development which came about with the advent of the neo-cons which happened around the same time as a pronounced rightward shift of Jews in Israel, America and elsewhere. But even now extreme right groups to the right of the neo-cons are still ardently anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.

Len,

Most right-wingers are strongly anti-Communist, wouldn't you say?

As you point out, many right-wing groups were (and still are) strongly anti-Semitic, hence most unlikely to be pro-Israel. However, what about right-wingers who are Jewish?

Most of Israel's strongest American based supporters were anti-Communist both then and now. The posted reference to Lemnitzer being pro-Israel is something I have read before. I believe it's probably true.

As I said before, right-wing and pro-Israel are not mutually exclusive.

And yes, I can cite an extreme right group from that period which was pro-Israel. The Lansky crime syndicate. Not exactly bleeding heart left-wingers, were they?

[Len Colby]

Most right-wingers are strongly anti-Communist, wouldn't you say?

Yes and?

"As you point out, many right-wing groups were (and still are) strongly anti-Semitic, hence most unlikely to be pro-Israel. However, what about right-wingers who are Jewish?"

1 – We're talking about the late 50's early 60's rightwing Jews of any stripe were few and far between back then.

2 – There is a difference between "extreme right" and "right" you did notseem to have understood my last post reread it.

"Most of Israel's strongest American based supporters were anti-Communist both then and now."

Logical fallacy a)"Most right-wingers are strongly anti-Communist" "Most of Israel's strongest American based supporters were anti-Communist", therefore many (most) supporters of Israel are right wingers, um no because one can be anti-Communist and not be a right winger. John Simkin and Peter Lemkin have gone on record here as being anti-Communist (or at least anti-Soviet) most American (and I believe European and Australian) progressives of that period were anti-Communist.

Most of the early Neocons were Trotskyites or leftists back then and most Jewish Zionists still are leftist or liberals and were overwhelmingly so in the period we're talking about.

"The posted reference to Lemnitzer being pro-Israel is something I have read before. I believe it's probably true."

I've read that 1) the Holocaust never happened,2) man never walked on the Moon and 3) Earth and the Universe were created by "intelligent design" before and many people believe these ideas are "probably true". Provide evidence that your belief is true. Even if true which extreme right pro-Israel groups did he associate with to the exclusion of extreme-right anti-Semitic groups?

"As I said before, right-wing and pro-Israel are not mutually exclusive."

Straw man fallacy

"And yes, I can cite an extreme right group from that period which was pro-Israel. The Lansky crime syndicate. Not exactly bleeding heart left-wingers, were they? "

Another logical fallacy (your 3rd or 4th)"extreme-right" is not the only alternative to "bleeding heart left-wingers". Can you provide any evidence that Lansky was political one way or the other let alone rightwing let alone "extreme-right"? I've never heard anything along those lines. I would imagine that he was basically apolitical and if he took interest in politics at all it was only to further his "enterprises" i.e. he would be more interested a how amenable candidate was to doing what he wanted than his politics. Even if he was political was his gang as a group political. Have any evidence he was especially pro-Israel in this period?

You might be confusing Lansky with Bugsy Siegel who helped raise money for and smuggle arms to the Jews in Palestine after WW2 40's. But I have never heard he was political one way or the other either and since he was killed in 1947 it is highly unlikely he was involved with extreme right groups in the early 60's.

Unless you can cite any evidence in support of your position this is my last post on this question, our discussion is becoming circular.

Edited September 25, 2006 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

duplicate

Edited September 25, 2006 by Len Colby

[Norman T. Field]

According to his biography 'Little Man', Lansky was very active raising money for Israel.

[Len Colby]

According to his biography 'Little Man', Lansky was very active raising money for Israel.

Thanks for that Norman. I guess I was wrong about that. What I really meant to say was that Lansky only started supporting Israeli later in life. If you still have the book handy or have a good memory I have few questions:

When did he start raising money for Israel? Was this an individual effort or did he involve his gang?

Was he particularly political? If so what were his leanings? Did involve his gang in his political activism?

Did Lemnitzer have any dealings with Lansky or his gang?

To make a long story short is there any truth to Mark’s contention that Lansky’s gang was an extreme right pro-Israel organization in the late 50’s early 60’s?

Len

[Mark Stapleton]

According to his biography 'Little Man', Lansky was very active raising money for Israel.

Thanks for that Norman. I guess I was wrong about that. What I really meant to say was that Lansky only started supporting Israeli later in life. If you still have the book handy or have a good memory I have few questions:

When did he start raising money for Israel? Was this an individual effort or did he involve his gang?

Was he particularly political? If so what were his leanings? Did involve his gang in his political activism?

Did Lemnitzer have any dealings with Lansky or his gang?

To make a long story short is there any truth to Mark’s contention that Lansky’s gang was an extreme right pro-Israel organization in the late 50’s early 60’s?

Lansky's group was first and foremost a criminal group. However, as Lansky's syndicate was mostly Jewish, many had strong feelings about Israel.

From Mickey Cohen's memoir, Mickey Cohen: In my own words:

"Now I got so engrossed with Israel that I actually pushed aside a lot of my activities and done nothing but what was involved with this Irgun war. It's a nature of mine, see. Either I go whole hog or nothing".

Other excerpts from Cohen's memoir have previously been posted on the Forum.

From Jimmy Frattiano's memoirs:

"After Cohen's little speech we start moving around the room and Mickey's rabbi introduces us to a guy called Menachem Begin, who's the boss of the Irgun, an underground outfit iin Palestine. The guy's wearing a blaqck armband and tells us he's wanted back there for bombing a hotal which killed almost a hundred people.

Anyway, he makes a speech and after him just about everybody made a speech. It just goes on and on. Afterwards, these other guys from the Haganah, another underground outfit, start arguing with Begin about who's going to handle the money. So Mickey chips in and its agreed that his rabbi will handle the money and Mickey will buy guns and ammo and ship them over there".

From Gary Wean's There's a fish in the Courthouse:

"At that time the rabbis were pushing them hard as hell to squeeze every bit of dough they could get out of Hollywood for Israel. Menachem Begin was spending more time in Hollywood hanging aroung Cohen than in Israel. Begin desperately wanted to know what Kennedy's plan was for Israel if he became President"

Len