The J.D. Tippit Shooting Evidence

[Chuck Robbins]

The ballistics evidence is rendered moot when you read the report made by two DPD officers who witnessed Tippit being pronounced dead at 1:15 p.m. 11/22/63.

Chuck

Can you provide the source(s) for this statement?

You bet, just give me a few to dig it up, o.k.?

Chuck

[Chuck Robbins]

The ballistics evidence is rendered moot when you read the report made by two DPD officers who witnessed Tippit being pronounced dead at 1:15 p.m. 11/22/63.

Chuck

Can you provide the source(s) for this statement?

You bet, just give me a few to dig it up, o.k.?

Chuck

[Chuck Robbins]

The ballistics evidence is rendered moot when you read the report made by two DPD officers who witnessed Tippit being pronounced dead at 1:15 p.m. 11/22/63.

Chuck

Can you provide the source(s) for this statement?

R. A. Davenport & W. R. Bardin were the officers who filled out the report.

Curiously, the time of 1:15 is typed over what appears to be a time of 1:00.

If I knew how to remove my other posts images I could post the doc. for you all.

Chuck

Now, after saying this, I am going to look for the locations of the shells, because I don't think I would have been able to conclude that the shells were ejected from an automatic, based on where they were found. I could be mistaken.....but I don't think so.

Hill's original radio report refers to a singular "shell", not a plural "shells," if the transcript is accurate. In the heat of the moment I don't think it is unreasonable for a policeman to jump to the conclusion that the presence of an ejected caridge is an indication that the murder weapon was an automatic.

This issue, like the issue of Poe's supposed marking two of the shells, has been a blind alley for researchers for over 40 years, and it is time to get over it and look at the real evidence, IMO.

I believe the shells were handed to him in a plastic cigarette wrapper by Domingo Benevides? Name spelled wrong?

Chuck

[J. Raymond Carroll]

The ballistics evidence is rendered moot when you read the report made by two DPD officers who witnessed Tippit being pronounced dead at 1:15 p.m. 11/22/63.

Chuck

Can you provide the source(s) for this statement?

R. A. Davenport & W. R. Bardin were the officers who filled out the report.

Curiously, the time of 1:15 is typed over what appears to be a time of 1:00.

If I knew how to remove my other posts images I could post the doc. for you all.

Chuck

Good catch on this one, Chuck. Maybe you can just post the link, or provide the box no., assuming it is in the Dallas archive.

[quote name='Chuck Robbins' date='May 17 2006, 12:40 PM' post='62671'

I believe the shells were handed to him in a plastic cigarette wrapper by Domingo Benevides? Name spelled wrong?

Chuck

Hill made two trips to the crime scene. On his first trip he radiod in the information that the murder weapon appeared to be an automatic (based on the fact that there was a shell at the scene). In his Warren Commission testimony, Hill denied that it was he who made that call to the dispatcher. My guess is that he was embarrased by his faux pas. He has since recanted.

On his second trip, some time later, Benavides showed him two shells in a cigarette package. It was only then that Hill actually examined the shells. I repeat that there is no evidence, as far as I know, that Hill had actually examined a shell or shells at the time he made the inference that the murder weapon was an automatic.

[Antti Hynonen]

A couple more issues to consider from the site below:

http://scribblguy.50megs.com/tippit.htm

. . . here is some material from "On The Trail of the Assassins", by Jim Garrison.

As I continued my research, I discovered that beyond the eyewitnesses there was other evidence gathered and altered by the Dallas homicide unit showing that Lee Oswald had been framed in the Tippit murder. For instance, I read transcripts of the messages sent over the Dallas police radio shortly after the murder. These were recorded automatically on a log. Just minutes after a citizen first reported the murder on Tippit's radio. Patrolman H.W. Summers in Dallas police unit number 221 (the designation for the squad car) reported that an "eyeball witness to the getaway man" had been located. The suspect was described as having black wavy hair, wearing an Eisenhower jacket of light color, with dark trousers and a white shirt. He was "apparently armed with a .32, dark finish, automatic pistol," which he had in his right hand. Moments later, Sergeant G. Hill reported that "the shell at the scene indicates that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol."

So let's see, first cop (HW Summers) calls suspect in describing his weapon as an automatic. Based on eye witness testimony??? Then Hill calls the weapon in as an automatic, because he sees one shell near the body....

Of course this .38 automatic business had to change once Oswald was captured with a .38 Special.

Further in this article the confusion with the bullets recovered from Tippit, the first one sent to the FBI didn't match, so then DPD sent them all. Then the FBI lab determined "three of them, it turned out, were copper-coated and had been manufactured by the Winchester Western company. The fourth, however, was a lead bullet made by the Remington-Peters company." The quote from the article above....

And following this, the DPD had to have shells that would match the lab results.....

..the article continues:

" The F.B.I. Iab found that *two* of the cartridge cases had been manufactured by Western and *two* by Remington. Since the lab had already concluded that *three* of the bullets found in Tippit's body were copper-coated Westerns and *one* was a lead Remington, these numbers simply did not add up."

I assure everyone, no foul play.....B.S!

I bet someone at the DPD has been kicking themselves for that one... Like Homer Simpson would say"DOUGH".

[Antti Hynonen]

duplicate post removed

Edited May 17, 2006 by Antti Hynonen

[Trent Adams]

OK, I am not looking to debate the details of some of the issues in the posts, as I know this has been discussed previously. However, these are some of the things that I believe to be correct, and I would like to be made aware of where I am wrong and/or enlightened as to where some of this evidence can be located. The events surrounding the Tippit murder are of GREAT interest to me.

Therefore, please educate me on my misgivings as I list them here:

- The first report that the gun was an automatic was by Officer Summers around 1:37 pm, based on information from witness Callaway. Callaway based this on how the gunman was holding the gun when he came through the hedge, and his experience with a .45 in the Marine Corp.

- Nobody ever claimed to find a shell near the body of Tippit. I don't know of anyplace that it indicates this occurred.

- Additionally, I don't believe Hill arrived at the scene until after Tippit's body was removed, so it would be somewhat tough for him to see a shell near the body...

- The shells were found at the northwest corner of the building the Davis sisters lived, and this was actually on Patton, not on Tenth.

- Hill, Poe, and Benavides all had differing accounts of how the shells were placed in the cigarette carton. I think they all had a little problem with getting this story correct.

- The first shells were not found or recovered until at least 20 minutes after the shooting. This would be quite remarkable if in fact, there was a shell near the body.

I'm just trying to figure out where this information is, so that I can correct my records, so that I may add some other dots to try and connect.

Thanks in advance!

[Steve Thomas]

Raymond,

Good catch on this one, Chuck. Maybe you can just post the link, or provide the box no., assuming it is in the Dallas archive.

Davenport's Report can be found in Box 1, Folder# 4, Item #'s 6 and 7 of the DPD Archives here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

Steve Thomas

[Mark Knight]

SOMEONE knew that a .38 Special, bored out to accept .38 S&W cartridges, would leave an uncertain fingerprint with non-lead [i.e., copper jacketed] bullets, and there surely HAD to be a purpose in Ozzie having a handgun of that particular type...and it damn sure wasn't to incriminate him! Too bad he ended up with some NON-jacketed rounds to tie him to the Tippitt killing...wonder whether Ozzie knew the non-jacketed rounds were in the gun, or whether someone set him up to be caught?

I mean, let's project this scenario out. If LHO is smart enough to use a gun that doesn't leave a traceable signature with jacketed rounds, why would he use anything BUT jacketed rounds...unless he either a) wanted to be caught; or didn't know the non-jacketed bullets were in the cylinder; or c) was totally unaware of any of this, and was just the unlucky schmuck that the WC said he was, with no plan except the one that worked flawlessly in the killing of the president.

Personally, I have a hard time buying what's behind door number 3...which makes door number one doubtful, too...so it appears that door number two is our winner, and THAT spells conspiracy and doublecross.

So let's "suppose" option b all the way out. Of course, there was no guarantee that Tippitt would be shot; but that was a chance the co-conspirators were probably willing to take. If Ozzie got to the theater with no problems, he got a free pass out of the country; if he had a problem and had to shoot someone, he was hung out to dry and no ride materialized at the theater. Simple plan.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Raymond,

Good catch on this one, Chuck. Maybe you can just post the link, or provide the box no., assuming it is in the Dallas archive.

Davenport's Report can be found in Box 1, Folder# 4, Item #'s 6 and 7 of the DPD Archives here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

Steve Thomas

Once again I find myself indebted to Steve Thomas. Thanks Steve, and thank you Chuck.

Antti, I must respectfully point out that there is a reason why so many of the first generation of researchers (e.g. Sylvia Meagher, Harold Weisberg, Leo Sauvage, Josiah Thompson and David Lifton) thought Garrison's methods of handling evidence were incompetent and irresponsible. The reason is that Garrison actually WAS incompetent and irresponsible in the way he handled and analyzed evidence.

Quote ON. . . here is some material from "On The Trail of the Assassins", by Jim Garrison. Patrolman H.W. Summers in Dallas police unit number 221 (the designation for the squad car) reported that an "eyeball witness to the getaway man" had been located. ....He was "apparently armed with a .32, dark finish, automatic pistol," which he had in his right hand. Moments later, Sergeant G. Hill reported that "the shell at the scene indicates that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol." [2]

It seemed clear to me from this that the hand gun used to shoot Tippit was an automatic. QUOTE OFF.

I believe that Lee Oswald was framed for the Tippit murder, but arguing that the murder weapon was an automatic is not the way to prove it. This is very flimsy evidence from which to argue that the Tippit murder weapon was an automatic. I make no pretense to being a firearms expert, but assuming it is true that a shell from an automatic can easily be distinguished from a revolver shell, then Garrison is accusing a number of officers at the scene of being liars and perjurers, because none of them reported or testified that the shells they examined came from an automatic.

Would anyone really want to accuse officer Poe of perjury and obstruction of justice? That is, in effect, what Garrison is doing here. But of course Garrison is remembered in history for having prosecuted an innocent man in connection with the assassination of JFK.

I respectfully submit that the overwhelming weight of the evidence shows that J.D. Tippit was murdered by a revolver. The only relevant question at this stage is: Whose revolver was it?

Continued talk about an issue that should not be in doubt serves no purpose other than to confuse people. But of course Garrison is remembered in history for causing a great deal of confusion in the JFK inquiry.

Edited May 17, 2006 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Brian LeCloux]

I would just add to what J. Raymond Carroll said in reference to the first generation of critics' opinion of Garrison's methods. Two assessments of Garrison from the period following the release of Oliver Stone's JFK are instructive. Assassination historian Dr. David R. Wrone asserted that Garrison ought to have been disbarred because of his methods. Harold Weisberg commented that Garrison couldn't find a pubic hair in a whorehouse.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Assassination historian Dr. David R. Wrone asserted that Garrison ought to have been disbarred because of his methods. Harold Weisberg commented that Garrison couldn't find a pubic hair in a whorehouse.

Well said, Brian. Actually I think Weisberg commented that Garrison couldn't find a pubic hair in a whorehouse AT RUSH HOUR.

[Chuck Robbins]

SOMEONE knew that a .38 Special, bored out to accept .38 S&W cartridges, would leave an uncertain fingerprint with non-lead [i.e., copper jacketed] bullets, and there surely HAD to be a purpose in Ozzie having a handgun of that particular type...and it damn sure wasn't to incriminate him! Too bad he ended up with some NON-jacketed rounds to tie him to the Tippitt killing...wonder whether Ozzie knew the non-jacketed rounds were in the gun, or whether someone set him up to be caught?

I mean, let's project this scenario out. If LHO is smart enough to use a gun that doesn't leave a traceable signature with jacketed rounds, why would he use anything BUT jacketed rounds...unless he either a) wanted to be caught; or didn't know the non-jacketed bullets were in the cylinder; or c) was totally unaware of any of this, and was just the unlucky schmuck that the WC said he was, with no plan except the one that worked flawlessly in the killing of the president.

Personally, I have a hard time buying what's behind door number 3...which makes door number one doubtful, too...so it appears that door number two is our winner, and THAT spells conspiracy and doublecross.

So let's "suppose" option b all the way out. Of course, there was no guarantee that Tippitt would be shot; but that was a chance the co-conspirators were probably willing to take. If Ozzie got to the theater with no problems, he got a free pass out of the country; if he had a problem and had to shoot someone, he was hung out to dry and no ride materialized at the theater. Simple plan.

* I apologise for misspelling Tippit so many times. I am too lazy to go back and correct every one of them.

LHO had no chance of getting a pass anywhere but to the cemetery. He was the designated stooge. He had to die to keep the conspirator's plans a secret.

Read the report we have been talking about and then tell me again how LHO was the shooter?

It was impossible for him to have been at the scene when the shooting took place.

One DPD officer actually radioed in that he was going to be just one short block away from where Tippet was killed, at a time which would have put him at or near the scene, when Tippet was killed. No further radio contact was made by this officer the rest of the day according to transcripts.

This is information people selectively choose to ignore in favor of theories, which are impossible to prove as fact, of how LHO was able to be at the scene of the murder of Tippet.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that LHO was not guilty of anything more than being a loyal and patriotic american who believed he was stopping a plot to kill the Texas Governor?

Ruby, from information in a report made to the DPD, was the man LHO had approached seeking money in advance of the hit he believed was taken out on the Governor.

This is a common step taken by undercover officers, collecting evidence, when they have to prove intent.

Ruby refused to give him the cash in advance which made LHO have to continue his charade as an assassin in order to keep tabs on his suspect.

He had to die so he could not reveal the steps he had taken in pursuit of his goal which he thought was the protection of the Governor.

IMHO, of course.

There is another person I suspect may have been involved who lived one block from the Tippet murder site. He was another LHO lookalike who was reported to the DPD, by neighbors, as being LHO. This mans last name was Shelley.

Chuck Robbins

Edited May 18, 2006 by Chuck Robbins

[Antti Hynonen]

J. Raymond Carroll Posted Yesterday, 11:37 PM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ May 17 2006, 03:30 PM)

Raymond,

QUOTE(J. Raymond Carroll @ May 17 2006, 12:29 PM)

Good catch on this one, Chuck. Maybe you can just post the link, or provide the box no., assuming it is in the Dallas archive.

Davenport's Report can be found in Box 1, Folder# 4, Item #'s 6 and 7 of the DPD Archives here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

Steve Thomas

Once again I find myself indebted to Steve Thomas. Thanks Steve, and thank you Chuck.

Antti, I must respectfully point out that there is a reason why so many of the first generation of researchers (e.g. Sylvia Meagher, Harold Weisberg, Leo Sauvage, Josiah Thompson and David Lifton) thought Garrison's methods of handling evidence were incompetent and irresponsible. The reason is that Garrison actually WAS incompetent and irresponsible in the way he handled and analyzed evidence.

Quote ON. . . here is some material from "On The Trail of the Assassins", by Jim Garrison. Patrolman H.W. Summers in Dallas police unit number 221 (the designation for the squad car) reported that an "eyeball witness to the getaway man" had been located. ....He was "apparently armed with a .32, dark finish, automatic pistol," which he had in his right hand. Moments later, Sergeant G. Hill reported that "the shell at the scene indicates that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol." [2]

It seemed clear to me from this that the hand gun used to shoot Tippit was an automatic. QUOTE OFF.

I believe that Lee Oswald was framed for the Tippit murder, but arguing that the murder weapon was an automatic is not the way to prove it. This is very flimsy evidence from which to argue that the Tippit murder weapon was an automatic. I make no pretense to being a firearms expert, but assuming it is true that a shell from an automatic can easily be distinguished from a revolver shell, then Garrison is accusing a number of officers at the scene of being liars and perjurers, because none of them reported or testified that the shells they examined came from an automatic.

Would anyone really want to accuse officer Poe of perjury and obstruction of justice? That is, in effect, what Garrison is doing here. But of course Garrison is remembered in history for having prosecuted an innocent man in connection with the assassination of JFK.

I respectfully submit that the overwhelming weight of the evidence shows that J.D. Tippit was murdered by a revolver. The only relevant question at this stage is: Whose revolver was it?

Continued talk about an issue that should not be in doubt serves no purpose other than to confuse people. But of course Garrison is remembered in history for causing a great deal of confusion in the JFK inquiry.

Thanks for your comment. Ok, Tippit was shot with a revolver, initial radioed information regarding the Tippit murder weapon was erroneous. People do err. Garrison did a poor investigation and jumped to conclusions too quickly, too bad....

However, Whether it be Jim Garrison's presentation, or someone elses, there still are several issues relating to the eyewitness testimony and physical evidence that ought to be dealt with, with regards to the Tippit assassination.

Albeit the Tippit evidence being weak/conflicting against Oswald, my personal view is that the evidence against Oswald in this case is much stronger than the JFK case. Anyone care to debate the timeline conflicts or the eyewitness testimony conflicts?

[Duke Lane]

The ballistics evidence is rendered moot when you read the report made by two DPD officers who witnessed Tippit being pronounced dead at 1:15 p.m. 11/22/63.

Chuck

Can you provide the source(s) for this statement?

R. A. Davenport & W. R. Bardin were the officers who filled out the report.

Curiously, the time of 1:15 is typed over what appears to be a time of 1:00.

If I knew how to remove my other posts images I could post the doc. for you all.

Chuck

Good catch on this one, Chuck. Maybe you can just post the link, or provide the box no., assuming it is in the Dallas archive.

I believe the shells were handed to him in a plastic cigarette wrapper by Domingo Benevides? Name spelled wrong?

Chuck

Hill made two trips to the crime scene. On his first trip he radiod in the information that the murder weapon appeared to be an automatic (based on the fact that there was a shell were shells at the scene). In his Warren Commission testimony, Hill denied that it was he who made that call to the dispatcher. My guess is that he was embarrased by his faux pas. He has since recanted.

On his second trip, some time later, Benavides showed him two shells in a cigarette package. It was only then that Hill actually examined the shells. I repeat that there is no evidence, as far as I know, that Hill had actually examined a shell or shells at the time he made the inference that the murder weapon was an automatic.

Going strictly from memory, I recall that Hill lectured (none dare call it 'testimony!') that he was shown the shells in a cellophane cigarette pack wrapper by Poe, and that he told Poe to hang onto them 'to preserve the chain of evidence.'

Tho' we can't be absolutely certain (going as we are from testimony and such given some months after the event), it doesn't seem to me that Hill ever 'examined' the shells, but merely deduced that they were automatics because they were at the scene - as opposed to 'near the body' because the body had been removed before any police had responded, thanks to Mrs Wright's phone call immediately after the incident occurred - and therefore could be presumed to have been ejected, as only an automatic would do.

Who, after all, would consider a perp to empty shells onto the ground, potentially with his fingerprints (did somebody say 'fingerprints?' What did 'Oswald' do with his gloves anyway? Surely he must have used them to ensure he left no prints ...?) on them at the scene? This only makes sense if the perp knows that his prints won't be found ....

OK, I am not looking to debate the details of some of the issues in the posts, as I know this has been discussed previously. However, these are some of the things that I believe to be correct, and I would like to be made aware of where I am wrong and/or enlightened as to where some of this evidence can be located. The events surrounding the Tippit murder are of GREAT interest to me.

Therefore, please educate me on my misgivings as I list them here:

- The first report that the gun was an automatic was by Officer Summers around 1:37 pm, based on information from witness Callaway. Callaway based this on how the gunman was holding the gun when he came through the hedge, and his experience with a .45 in the Marine Corp.

Did Callaway see the shooter come through the hedge at the northeast corner from his position near the southwest corner, some yards away, or merely see him running down Patton on the opposite side of the street, after he had long since cleared the hedge?

- Nobody ever claimed to find a shell near the body of Tippit. I don't know of anyplace that it indicates this occurred.

- Additionally, I don't believe Hill arrived at the scene until after Tippit's body was removed, so it would be somewhat tough for him to see a shell near the body...

Already noted above.

- The shells were found at the northwest corner of the building the Davis sisters lived, and this was actually on Patton, not on Tenth.

This was 'on 10th' if the observer was on 10th, and 'on Patton' if the observer was on Patton. Such is the nature of street corners ....

- Hill, Poe, and Benavides all had differing accounts of how the shells were placed in the cigarette carton. I think they all had a little problem with getting this story correct.

Cigarette wrapper. You think they coordinated the story? I think not. Donnie Benavides wasn't up to the task, not then, not 40 years later.

- The first shells were not found or recovered until at least 20 minutes after the shooting. This would be quite remarkable if in fact, there was a shell near the body.

I'm just trying to figure out where this information is, so that I can correct my records, so that I may add some other dots to try and connect.

Thanks in advance!

No shell 'near the body' because there was no body. All the shells, according to the Davis sisters-in-law and Benavides, were found off of the street in the Davis' front/side/corner yard.