Of Slings & Swivels

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Below can be found the internal operating aspects of the Mannlicher rifle, and the clip and clip release.

Also provided is an enlarged view of the clip release.

It should be noted that the clip release rod maintains it's forward pressure against the back side of the clip as a result of the "leaf" type spring which runs from the internal portion of the trigger housing to the back side of the clip release latch.

Also, and specifically noted, the only/single point of contact of the clip release latch is that point where the actual latch head comes in contact with the clip locking protrusion found on the back side of the actual clip.

Even with this:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/steyr...rangereport.pdf

"The one noticeable difference is the Steyr (Mannlicher) is supposed to eject the clip after the last cartridge has been chambered. My specimen did not consistantly do this. I had to manually eject about every third clip."

P.S. Almost forgot that it is also noteworthy to observe the location of the clip locking protrusion on the actual clip. With the Mannlicher, this protrusion is located at the top 1/5th of the back side of the clip.

Therefore, only approximately 20% of the backside of the clip must actually travel past the clip release latch/locking protrusion in order for the clip to be completely free and eject from the weapon.

*Figure# 3 of the web site demonstrates an excellent photograph of the location of the clip locking protrusion.

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj2003/Ita...#Top_2RareClips

The middle/center clip at the bottom of the page is the standard Carcano Clip.

When it is fully examined as to how the clip release operates in relationship to the back side of the actual clip, then it is fully understood as to the "why"? that these clips do not, as a regular event, simply fall out of the weapon.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/index.html

Might I recommend that one take a close look at the backside of the Carcano clip.

Then, when comparing this with the clip release latch on the weapon, it is completely understandable as to the "why" the Carcano clip seldom falls out of the weapon upon chambering of the last round.

The rear of the clip is "grooved", however each end tapers to being almost flat.

This groove on the backside of the clip assures correct alignment with the clip release latch as the loaded clip is pushed down into the magazine of the weapon.

And, a portion of the clip release rides in this groove, with constant pressure from the spring applying pressure against the backside of the clip.

When the final round is chambered and there is no upward pressure from the loading spring, the clip nevertheless continues to maintain pressure against it's backside by that portion of the clip release which rides in the grooved channel of the clip.

And, even if the clip does drop somewhat, it frequently "catches" as the groove in the clip progressively tapers to an almost flat area at the outer edge of the clip.

As has been demonstrated, the original Manlicher clip had a completely flat backside, yet even it reportedly hung/caught in the weapon and was not ejected as originally designed.

With the Carcano designed clip release, a portion of the release continously rode/applied pressure in the grooved channel of the backside of the clip, and even then, had to pass over a last area of the clip in which the spacing between the clip and clip release had decreased due to a progressive decrease in the depth of the channel in which the clip release guide rested.

This is the WHY? that the Carcano Clip does not always drop from the weapon, as well as the WHY? that the clip may drop, yet "catch" and not fully eject from the bottom of the magazine.

Since Mr. Carcano is long deceased, it is unlikely that we will ever know the full extent of the intention of his design with the clip and clip release mechanism.

For any who may have missed it:

The standard Mannlicher clip & clip release mechanism which, according to most experts, is known to not always release the clip to the extent that it drops out of the weapon.

The clip has a completely "flat" backside and the only point of contact between the clip release and the actual clip being that small "point" of contact where the edge of the catch on the clip makes contact with the length of the clip release.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The Carcano clip and clip release mechanism.

The "catch" on the back side of the Carcano Clip is located directly in the center of the clip and measures 5mm in length,

This catch also "raised" exactly 1mm higher than even the backside of the clip, and thus maintains contact and contact pressure with the entire length of the clip release.

In addition to this pressure contact, the top portion of the clip release (the head portion) is designed to fit into the groove onto the backside of the Carcano clip.

This serves as a guide upon insertion of the clip, which this head fits into the channel in the back side of the clip.

This "head" also maintains continous contact/contact pressure against the clip, with the head of the clip release riding in the channel on the backside of the clip.

In addition to this contact pressure, the channel in the backside of the Carcano clip, which is approximately 1/2 mm in depth, also progressively decreases to virtually no channel at each edge of the clip.

Therefore, the head on the clip release mechanism not only maintains contact pressure against the channel portion of the clip, but it must also overcome even more contact pressure as the clip attempts to drop out of the weapon and the decreasing depth of the channel in the clip creates an increase in contact pressure between the clip and the head of the clip release mechanism.

This is why, even when the clip does attempt to drop out of the weapon, it is often caught in a position in which a portion of the clip can be observed hanging out the bottom of the magazine.

When the head on the clip release mechanism, which is riding in the channel on the backside of the actual clip, comes to that point on the backside of the clip where the channel decreases (becomes flat), then additional contact pressure between the clip & clip release is encountered.

And, unless both items have considerable wear, the clip will normally hang in this position, if it drops at all.

It is noted, that the older "brass" clips which have been around and in usage since the 1920's, have had considerable wear on most surfaces, and thus have a far better tendency to completely drop out of the weapon than did the "spring steel" clips.

Nevertheless, as to whether or not the clip completely drops out of the weapon is a matter which must take into consideration the actual weapon and clip usage and wear as well as minor differences in the manufacturing tolerances as allowed when machined parts come into contact in an operating system.

As example:

My Model 91/38 in the 7.35mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) drops completely out each and every time.

My Model 91/38 in the 6.5mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) frequently will not initially drop at all, and even if it does drop, it is always caught before it completely frees itself from the weapon.

It is quite simple to grasp the clip and pull it the remainder of the way out due to the small amount of "contact pressure" which causes it to catch, or, one can merely push the clip release button and the clip will then drop out without any assistance.

The Carcano clip and clip release mechanism.

The "catch" on the back side of the Carcano Clip is located directly in the center of the clip and measures 5mm in length,

This catch also "raised" exactly 1mm higher than even the backside of the clip, and thus maintains contact and contact pressure with the entire length of the clip release.

In addition to this pressure contact, the top portion of the clip release (the head portion) is designed to fit into the groove onto the backside of the Carcano clip.

This serves as a guide upon insertion of the clip, which this head fits into the channel in the back side of the clip.

This "head" also maintains continous contact/contact pressure against the clip, with the head of the clip release riding in the channel on the backside of the clip.

In addition to this contact pressure, the channel in the backside of the Carcano clip, which is approximately 1/2 mm in depth, also progressively decreases to virtually no channel at each edge of the clip.

Therefore, the head on the clip release mechanism not only maintains contact pressure against the channel portion of the clip, but it must also overcome even more contact pressure as the clip attempts to drop out of the weapon and the decreasing depth of the channel in the clip creates an increase in contact pressure between the clip and the head of the clip release mechanism.

This is why, even when the clip does attempt to drop out of the weapon, it is often caught in a position in which a portion of the clip can be observed hanging out the bottom of the magazine.

When the head on the clip release mechanism, which is riding in the channel on the backside of the actual clip, comes to that point on the backside of the clip where the channel decreases (becomes flat), then additional contact pressure between the clip & clip release is encountered.

And, unless both items have considerable wear, the clip will normally hang in this position, if it drops at all.

It is noted, that the older "brass" clips which have been around and in usage since the 1920's, have had considerable wear on most surfaces, and thus have a far better tendency to completely drop out of the weapon than did the "spring steel" clips.

Nevertheless, as to whether or not the clip completely drops out of the weapon is a matter which must take into consideration the actual weapon and clip usage and wear as well as minor differences in the manufacturing tolerances as allowed when machined parts come into contact in an operating system.

As example:

My Model 91/38 in the 7.35mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) drops completely out each and every time.

My Model 91/38 in the 6.5mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) frequently will not initially drop at all, and even if it does drop, it is always caught before it completely frees itself from the weapon.

It is quite simple to grasp the clip and pull it the remainder of the way out due to the small amount of "contact pressure" which causes it to catch, or, one can merely push the clip release button and the clip will then drop out without any assistance.

The Carcano clip and clip release mechanism.

The "catch" on the back side of the Carcano Clip is located directly in the center of the clip and measures 5mm in length,

This catch also "raised" exactly 1mm higher than even the backside of the clip, and thus maintains contact and contact pressure with the entire length of the clip release.

In addition to this pressure contact, the top portion of the clip release (the head portion) is designed to fit into the groove onto the backside of the Carcano clip.

This serves as a guide upon insertion of the clip, which this head fits into the channel in the back side of the clip.

This "head" also maintains continous contact/contact pressure against the clip, with the head of the clip release riding in the channel on the backside of the clip.

In addition to this contact pressure, the channel in the backside of the Carcano clip, which is approximately 1/2 mm in depth, also progressively decreases to virtually no channel at each edge of the clip.

Therefore, the head on the clip release mechanism not only maintains contact pressure against the channel portion of the clip, but it must also overcome even more contact pressure as the clip attempts to drop out of the weapon and the decreasing depth of the channel in the clip creates an increase in contact pressure between the clip and the head of the clip release mechanism.

This is why, even when the clip does attempt to drop out of the weapon, it is often caught in a position in which a portion of the clip can be observed hanging out the bottom of the magazine.

When the head on the clip release mechanism, which is riding in the channel on the backside of the actual clip, comes to that point on the backside of the clip where the channel decreases (becomes flat), then additional contact pressure between the clip & clip release is encountered.

And, unless both items have considerable wear, the clip will normally hang in this position, if it drops at all.

It is noted, that the older "brass" clips which have been around and in usage since the 1920's, have had considerable wear on most surfaces, and thus have a far better tendency to completely drop out of the weapon than did the "spring steel" clips.

Nevertheless, as to whether or not the clip completely drops out of the weapon is a matter which must take into consideration the actual weapon and clip usage and wear as well as minor differences in the manufacturing tolerances as allowed when machined parts come into contact in an operating system.

As example:

My Model 91/38 in the 7.35mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) drops completely out each and every time.

My Model 91/38 in the 6.5mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) frequently will not initially drop at all, and even if it does drop, it is always caught before it completely frees itself from the weapon.

It is quite simple to grasp the clip and pull it the remainder of the way out due to the small amount of "contact pressure" which causes it to catch, or, one can merely push the clip release button and the clip will then drop out without any assistance.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/ammo_clip.jpg

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The Carcano clip and clip release mechanism.

The "catch" on the back side of the Carcano Clip is located directly in the center of the clip and measures 5mm in length,

This catch also "raised" exactly 1mm higher than even the backside of the clip, and thus maintains contact and contact pressure with the entire length of the clip release.

In addition to this pressure contact, the top portion of the clip release (the head portion) is designed to fit into the groove onto the backside of the Carcano clip.

This serves as a guide upon insertion of the clip, which this head fits into the channel in the back side of the clip.

This "head" also maintains continous contact/contact pressure against the clip, with the head of the clip release riding in the channel on the backside of the clip.

In addition to this contact pressure, the channel in the backside of the Carcano clip, which is approximately 1/2 mm in depth, also progressively decreases to virtually no channel at each edge of the clip.

Therefore, the head on the clip release mechanism not only maintains contact pressure against the channel portion of the clip, but it must also overcome even more contact pressure as the clip attempts to drop out of the weapon and the decreasing depth of the channel in the clip creates an increase in contact pressure between the clip and the head of the clip release mechanism.

This is why, even when the clip does attempt to drop out of the weapon, it is often caught in a position in which a portion of the clip can be observed hanging out the bottom of the magazine.

When the head on the clip release mechanism, which is riding in the channel on the backside of the actual clip, comes to that point on the backside of the clip where the channel decreases (becomes flat), then additional contact pressure between the clip & clip release is encountered.

And, unless both items have considerable wear, the clip will normally hang in this position, if it drops at all.

It is noted, that the older "brass" clips which have been around and in usage since the 1920's, have had considerable wear on most surfaces, and thus have a far better tendency to completely drop out of the weapon than did the "spring steel" clips.

Nevertheless, as to whether or not the clip completely drops out of the weapon is a matter which must take into consideration the actual weapon and clip usage and wear as well as minor differences in the manufacturing tolerances as allowed when machined parts come into contact in an operating system.

As example:

My Model 91/38 in the 7.35mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) drops completely out each and every time.

My Model 91/38 in the 6.5mm caliber:----The clip (either brass or steel) frequently will not initially drop at all, and even if it does drop, it is always caught before it completely frees itself from the weapon.

It is quite simple to grasp the clip and pull it the remainder of the way out due to the small amount of "contact pressure" which causes it to catch, or, one can merely push the clip release button and the clip will then drop out without any assistance.

As a (hopefully) final note on the "dropping clip" issue.

Not unlike the initial loading of the Carcano with 7-rounds, one can "fudge" and either make the Carcano clip hang up virtually every time, as well as make it drop completely out of the weapon every time.

In fact, this appears to have much to do with the newer "spring steel" clips having been made for the weapon.

Inside the receiver of the weapon, and extending down into the magazine area, the weapon is milled , which is cut into the interior side of the weapon and run vertically down through the magazine

This milled area is where the clip is inserted, and the milled area creates an edge in which the forward edge of the clip, when fully expanded, rides against this milled edge inside the receiver/magazine.

It is noted, that the only time in which the forward edge of the clip is normally in contact with this milled "lip/edge" inside the receiver, is when the clip is loaded, which expands the "mouth" of the clip to a wider dimension.

Thus, when the last round is chambered, the clip is supposed to "spring" closed, thus decreasing the distance across it's mouth, and thus delete forward contact of the forward edge of the clip with the milled lip/edge inside the receiver.

When effectively working, this allows the clip to move slightly forward past the point of normal contact, and thus relieves some of the contact pressure between the back side of the clip and the clip release/guide mechanism.

Older brass clips frequently would become "sprung" outwards due to repetetive loading of ammo, and unlike steel, would not "spring closed" after the last round was chambered.

Thus, this failure to achieve closure at the mouth of the clip prevent the slight forward movement of the clip in the receiver, and thus allowed the clip to remain in place until the clip release was activated.

"Spring Steel" however, was far less likely to be "sprung open" and remain in this position. Therefore the newer "spring steel clips" which, unless manually forced otherwise, always had a tendency to close the forward mouth of the clip after the last round was chambered, thus allowing the clip to move slightly forward past the milled lip on which the forward edge of the clip made contact when loaded.

Thus, one could state that the spring steel clips, under normal operating conditions, was far more likely to actually fall completely out of the weapon, than were any of the brass clips which may have been deformed/opened up through usage/repetetive loading.

Now!

I can take either clip and force it open at the mouth to the extent that rounds will easily load into the clip and it can be inserted into the weapon, and the clip will maintain this "opened/expanded" distance at the mouth of the clip even when the last round is fired.

In so doing, the clip may now attempt to remain "opened" after the last round has been chambered, thus not allowing the clip to move slightly forward in the receiver/magagine, thus not relieving the contact pressure of the clip release on the backside of the clip.

End result! A clip that will ALWAYS hang up in the weapon until such time as the clip release is activated.

On the other hand, I can take any clip and force the closure of the sides of the clip until such time as the distance across the mouth of the clip has decreased considerably, and the clip will hold this position.

This will make it slightly more difficult to insert the initial round into the clip, but thereafter it creates no difficulty.

After the last round is chambered, the clip will "spring closed" considerably more than normal, thus assuring that the forward edge is no longer in contact with the sidewalls of the receiver/magazine and lip/edge, and also assure that the clip can move forward and completely relieve any contact pressure against the backside of the clip as created by the clip release/guide mechanism.

It would appear that this is no doubt the reason/rationale for the "spring steel" clips of newer manufacture.

One can easily force brass into a position, either intentionally, or accidentally, and have the brass remain there.

However, one would almost have to force the spring steel clips open to the extent that this clip would remain open and repeatedly cease to close back at the mouth after the last round is chambered.

The "Clip Issue" is, and has always been, a "Non-issue"!

Except of course with certain uninformed persons.

[William Kelly]

THE MANNLICHER CARCANO RIFLE

"There have been a number of rumors and old wives tales passed around about the safety of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. When in good condition and used with the proper ammunition, it is as safe as any other military rifle. No nation is going to adopt a weapon which is dangerous to its own troops."

"SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD"

TOM, AND OTHERS FAMILIAR WITH RIFLES, SLINGS AND SUCH,

IF YOU NOTICE IN THE JIM BRADEN THREAD, HE TESTIFIED BEFORE THE HSCA THAT WHEN HE WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY SHRIFF DEPUTY LUMMIE LEWIS, AS THEY EXITED THE DAL-TEX BUILDING, ACROSS THE STREET BRADEN SAW A POLICEMAN LEAVING THE TSBD HOLDING A RIFLE BY A "STRING" OR POSSIBLY SLING SWIVEL, HOLDING IT HIGH.

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PHOTO THEY CAN POST OF THIS SCENE?

ALSO, IS THIS THE MANLICHER CARCARNO, OR ANOTHER RIFLE?

MANY THANKS, AND SORRY TO DISRUPT YOUR TREAD.

BK

[Thomas H. Purvis]

THE MANNLICHER CARCANO RIFLE

"There have been a number of rumors and old wives tales passed around about the safety of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. When in good condition and used with the proper ammunition, it is as safe as any other military rifle. No nation is going to adopt a weapon which is dangerous to its own troops."

"SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD"

TOM, AND OTHERS FAMILIAR WITH RIFLES, SLINGS AND SUCH,

IF YOU NOTICE IN THE JIM BRADEN THREAD, HE TESTIFIED BEFORE THE HSCA THAT WHEN HE WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY SHRIFF DEPUTY LUMMIE LEWIS, AS THEY EXITED THE DAL-TEX BUILDING, ACROSS THE STREET BRADEN SAW A POLICEMAN LEAVING THE TSBD HOLDING A RIFLE BY A "STRING" OR POSSIBLY SLING SWIVEL, HOLDING IT HIGH.

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PHOTO THEY CAN POST OF THIS SCENE?

ALSO, IS THIS THE MANLICHER CARCARNO, OR ANOTHER RIFLE?

MANY THANKS, AND SORRY TO DISRUPT YOUR TREAD.

BK

One can thank JFK Lancer!

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bull...ifleoutside.JPG

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/day_clip.gif

[William Kelly]

THE MANNLICHER CARCANO RIFLE

"There have been a number of rumors and old wives tales passed around about the safety of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. When in good condition and used with the proper ammunition, it is as safe as any other military rifle. No nation is going to adopt a weapon which is dangerous to its own troops."

"SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD"

TOM, AND OTHERS FAMILIAR WITH RIFLES, SLINGS AND SUCH,

IF YOU NOTICE IN THE JIM BRADEN THREAD, HE TESTIFIED BEFORE THE HSCA THAT WHEN HE WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY SHRIFF DEPUTY LUMMIE LEWIS, AS THEY EXITED THE DAL-TEX BUILDING, ACROSS THE STREET BRADEN SAW A POLICEMAN LEAVING THE TSBD HOLDING A RIFLE BY A "STRING" OR POSSIBLY SLING SWIVEL, HOLDING IT HIGH.

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PHOTO THEY CAN POST OF THIS SCENE?

ALSO, IS THIS THE MANLICHER CARCARNO, OR ANOTHER RIFLE?

MANY THANKS, AND SORRY TO DISRUPT YOUR TREAD.

BK

One can thank JFK Lancer!

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bull...ifleoutside.JPG

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/day_clip.gif

THANK YOU AND LANCER.

NOW THAT LOOKS LIKE THE MC TO ME.

ALSO, IT SEEMS LIKE THAT'S THE DAL TEX BUILDING IN THE BACKGROUND, WHERE IF OTHER PHOTOS IN THIS SERIES FOLLOW THE RIFLE, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE BRADEN AND LEWIS ON THE SIDEWALK.

THAT IS THE MC, RIGHT?

BK

[Paul Kerrigan]

Note that the Klein's ad shown above lists it as a 40-inch rifle, and also note that the ammunition--which LHO did NOT purchase--is Italian military ammo, NOT Western [uS-made]...but the offer DID include a 6-round clip.

My point, I suppose...is that LHO allegedly bought the rifle from Klein's, and the pistol from Seaport Traders. Yet he could just as easily have bought BOTh from Klein's...or, since the revolver came to Seaport via Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, of Montreal, why would LHO not have similarly sourced his rifle from the same folks...ESPECIALLY since, according to WC testimony, Empire kept NO serial-number records on THEIR Carcanos, and therefore they WOULD have been untraceable.

Curious stuff, indeed.

Just a caveat...this is apparently a 1964 Klein's ad, since they're offering a 1964 edition of a manual in the ad.

This add has erroneously led many to the wrong clonclusions, which it would appear was intentional.

Check the order form reportedly completed by LHO. It called for the "CT" on the numbers, which was for the 36 inch Carbine, and for which Kleins reportedly had received.

The Warren Commission described the rifle like this:

"The rifle...was a bolt-action, clip-fed, military rifle, 40.2 inches long and 8 pounds in weight."

[Thomas H. Purvis]

It IS a Carcano, and, when one considers that it is identical to the assassination weapon, complete to the exact sling, and matches the photo's of the weapon found on the sixth floor, then one can readily assume that it is the Carcano which was utilized to shoot JFK.

The only question being? Exactly where did the weapon come from, and in event that it was in the possession of LHO and he utilized it to shoot JFK, then why do virtually all records indicate that he ordered and supposedly received the 36-inch long Carcano Carbine.

It would appear to me, that herein, we have a "motive" for having left a photographic record behind in which the 40.2 inch length "Short Rifle" is being held by LHO.

After all, this would establish, in most minds, that irrelevant as to the record trail, that LHO received a "Short Rifle" as opposed to the ordered Carbine.

And, considering that for $12.00 or so, one is only likely to receive a completely junk/worn out Carbine, then one most probably would not want to go "hunting" with such a piece of junk.

Just as, a true "hunter" would not want to face a tiger and/or bear, with junky Italian WWII ammo, therefore why waste time ordering ammo.

And! Exactly WHY? would I NOT order ammo and a clip for the weapon?

Because, I know of some location where I can already get it!