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First Shot/aka CE399


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"I could do what you have already done, but the results would be the same"

James R. Looney

Firearms & Toolmark Examiner

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation

Instead of wasting time talking about how to explain away a possibly planted bullet ... why not listen to those witnesses who were actually there and can time stamp where the President was and what he was doing when the first shot was fired. Independently Betzner said he took his photograph just prior to the first shot sounding off. Willis said it was that first shot that caused him to take his photograph. Mary Woodard said that the President was directly even with her and the women she was with and that JFK was waving and smiling to them when the first shot sounded. All these witnesses are locked into a time frame between Z186 to Z202. The tree was no longer a factor IMO.

Below is the last clear frame showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of as the first shot sounded off. Immediately following this frame the President flipped his hand over and brought it into the car and across his face.

post-1084-1152114217_thumb.jpg

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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Hi Tom.

This all assumes that the bullet was fired during the assassination.

Additionally, it leaves you with at least one additional shooter - does it not?

- lee

"This all assumes that the bullet was fired during the assassination."

Which, based on the known physical evidence, is considerably better than "assuming" and or believing in "planted bullet" scenario's.

Ever consider the absurdity to this based on the fact that fragments of the copper jacket from the headshot at Z-313 were also matched to the same rifle which fired CE399.

Unless one is so gullible to believe that all of the bullet fragments found in the Presidential Limo were also "planted'.

"Additionally, it leaves you with at least one additional shooter - does it not?"

Not that I am aware of!

Perhaps you should not cut class!

Z-312/313------5.8 (+/-) seconds later:---------SECOND SHOT FIRED

Exactly what is so difficult with that?

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Not that I am aware of!

Perhaps you should not cut class!

What Purvis is doing is about as silly as claiming the first shot was fired on 11/21/63 so yet to invent a totally new shooting scenario. In other words, Purvy is willing to invent a timing situation for the first shot to have occurred despite what the witnesses who were actual there had said about the location of the limo when the first shot actually sounded off.

Bill Miller

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"I could do what you have already done, but the results would be the same"

James R. Looney

Firearms & Toolmark Examiner

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation

Instead of wasting time talking about how to explain away a possibly planted bullet ... why not listen to those witnesses who were actually there and can time stamp where the President was and what he was doing when the first shot was fired. Independently Betzner said he took his photograph just prior to the first shot sounding off. Willis said it was that first shot that caused him to take his photograph. Mary Woodard said that the President was directly even with her and the women she was with and that JFK was waving and smiling to them when the first shot sounded. All these witnesses are locked into a time frame between Z186 to Z202. The tree was no longer a factor IMO.

Below is the last clear frame showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of as the first shot sounded off. Immediately following this frame the President flipped his hand over and brought it into the car and across his face.

post-1084-1152114217_thumb.jpg

Bill Miller

Below is the last clear frame showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of as the first shot sounded off.

I see! Since the frames thereafter are not clear, we can deduce that JFK was shot here!

Certainly highly rational reasoning--------at least in Alice & Wonderland.

showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of

You certainly have a better crystal ball than most of us, in event you can tell by looking at this frame of the Z-film, the exact person whom JFK is waving to.

Personally, I was under the mistaken impression that he was waving to the "crowd".

The tree was no longer a factor IMO.

Really! Perhaps you would again share with us the Alice & Wonderland deductive reasoning method of determination of this absurd statement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. FRAZIER - Represented by frame 185, this is the first or rather the only position through the foliage of the tree at which a person from the sixth floor could get a clear shot at the back of the President, and I had the car stopped at this position and then we determined that this was frame 185 from the Zapruder films.

Mr. FRAZIER - On Commission Exhibit No. 892, also marked frame No. 207, the car was moved forward under the tree to the point where the spot on the Presidential stand-in's back just became visible beyond the foliage of the tree.

Mr. FRAZIER - As to whether or not a limb of the tree may have deflected one shot. However, I think it should be remembered that the frame 207 is just as he exits under the tree; from there to frame 225 to where the President shows a reaction is only a matter of 1 second. He is under the tree in frames 166 until frame 207, which is about 2 seconds. So somewhere in that 3-second interval there may have been a shot--which deflected from a limb or for some other reason and was never discovered.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly Bill!

Since Time/Life had in their possession the ORIGINAL of the Z-film, and they determined the point of impact for the first shot fired as being at approximately Z-205, and the US Secret Service, with their FIRST GENERATION COPY of the Z-film, determined that JFK was hit by/at Z-208/210, I personally find little in your background qualifications which would indicate that you are more qualified than either of these entities in review of the film in determination of the facts of the assassination.

And, were the tree limbs of no importance, then it is most unlikely that members of the Warren Commission re-enactment group would have hung around Dallas on the day after completion of the WC re-enactment, and thus secured a bucket/lift truck and cut and removed the limbs from the top of the live oak tree which is located directly in front of the TSDB.

IMO anyway!

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I see! Since the frames thereafter are not clear, we can deduce that JFK was shot here!

Certainly highly rational reasoning--------at least in Alice & Wonderland.

His left hand is clenched and moving upwards, indications of involuntary reaction possibly already setting in. Hookah.

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
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Below is the last clear frame showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of as the first shot sounded off.

I see! Since the frames thereafter are not clear, we can deduce that JFK was shot here!

Certainly highly rational reasoning--------at least in Alice & Wonderland.

showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of

You certainly have a better crystal ball than most of us, in event you can tell by looking at this frame of the Z-film, the exact person whom JFK is waving to.

Personally, I was under the mistaken impression that he was waving to the "crowd".

The tree was no longer a factor IMO.

Really! Perhaps you would again share with us the Alice & Wonderland deductive reasoning method of determination of this absurd statement.

No 'Alice in Wonderland', Purvy ... just paying attention to the witnesses. For instance, I wouldn't know who JFK was looking at when the first shot was fired, but because of Mary Woodard - I do know the answer to that question. She said he was directly out in front of her location and looking at her when the shot went off and he immediately stopped his wave/smiling and brought his hand into the car in front of his face. There is only one place on the Zfilm that shows this as the limo passed by where Woodard was standing, thus its a no brainer.

I should also tell you that the people I have spoken to have said that a bullet does not enter a body tumbling and then exits in a righted position. The wound in JFK's throat did not show signs of a tumbling bullet that I recall.

As far as when the first shot was fired for the official version - they too had to ignore the witnesses because it was obvious that in order to have JFK and Connally hit by the same bullet - one had to find a medium ground to work from. In other words, one cannot have JFK hit at Z193/195 and Connally shot at Z223/224 and have the shooting be done by one man. So they split the difference and said JFK reacted immediately and Connally must have had a delayed reaction, which was hogwash. Connally's right shoulder is driven forward starting at Z223/224. That forward motion can only be the direct result of the transfer of momentum of the bullet ripping through his chest. If JFK and Connally were hit by the same bullet, then Z223/224 is when it had to of happened, thus the tree plays no role in the shooting. I might also add that Connally's wrist was not out over his left thigh as the official version stated and how I know this is because I have seen enhancements of the Zfilm that the Feds never saw, or if they did ... they didn't make it known.

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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Below is the last clear frame showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of as the first shot sounded off.

I see! Since the frames thereafter are not clear, we can deduce that JFK was shot here!

Certainly highly rational reasoning--------at least in Alice & Wonderland.

showing JFK smiling and waving to the women Woodard spoke of

You certainly have a better crystal ball than most of us, in event you can tell by looking at this frame of the Z-film, the exact person whom JFK is waving to.

Personally, I was under the mistaken impression that he was waving to the "crowd".

The tree was no longer a factor IMO.

Really! Perhaps you would again share with us the Alice & Wonderland deductive reasoning method of determination of this absurd statement.

No 'Alice in Wonderland', Purvy ... just paying attention to the witnesses. For instance, I wouldn't know who JFK was looking at when the first shot was fired, but because of Mary Woodard - I do know the answer to that question. She said he was directly out in front of her when the shot went off and he immediately stopped his wave/smiling and brought his hand into the car in front of his face. There is only one place on the Zfilm that shows this as the limo passed by where Woodard was standing, thus its a no brainer.

I should also tell you that the people I have spoken to have said that a bullet does not enter a body tumbling and then exits in a righted position. The wound in JFK's throat did not show signs of a tumbling bullet that I recall.

As far as when the first shot was fired for the official version - they too had to ignore the witnesses because it was obvious that in order to have JFK and Connally hit by the same bullet - one had to find a medium ground to work from. In other words, one cannot have JFK hit at Z193/195 and Connally shot at Z223/224 and have the shooting be done by one man. So they split the difference and said JFK reacted immediately and Connally must have had a delayed reaction, which was hogwash. Connally's right shoulder is driven forward starting at Z223/224. That forward motion can only be the direct result of the transfer of momentum of the bullet ripping through his chest. I might also add that Connally's wrist was not out over his left thigh as the official version stated and how I knw this is because I have seen enhancements of the Zfilm that the Feds never saw, or if they did ... they didn't make it known.

Bill Miller

She said he was directly out in front of her when the shot went off and he immediately stopped his wave/smiling and brought his hand into the car in front of his face. There is only one place on the Zfilm that shows this as the limo passed by where Woodard was standing, thus its a no brainer.

1-second = 18.3 elapsed frames of the Z-film, which perhaps even you can understand.

So, exactly HOW? many frames of the film has elapsed in "immediately"?

thus its a no brainer

In that, I must fully agree. There is most assuredly some "no brainer" understandings of the content and context of placement of someone's statements as regards "immediately" in relationship to a time delay of one second, which to most persons would be "immediately".

In fact, even to those jumping from an aircraft, 2-seconds is normally considered "immediately".

So Bill! Kindly define "immediately" in terms of actual elapsed time for us, and then those of us who merely understand 18.3 frames per second of elapsed time, can have a full grasp of your vast knowledge.

I should also tell you that the people I have spoken to have said that a bullet does not enter a body tumbling and then exits in a righted position. The wound in JFK's throat did not show signs of a tumbling bullet that I recall

You truly do have either a reading comprehension problem and/or an attention deficient problem.

Try this:

1. The WC claims that CE399 passed through the neck of JFK and struck JBC. Please, if you would, refrain from associating me with this misrepresentation of the facts.

2. Tom, not unlike the original conclusions of the autopsy as well as the evidence, states that CE399 merely entered the back/neck/shoulder of JFK a short distance where it lodged.

As far as when the first shot was fired for the official version - they too had to ignore the witnesses because it was obvious that in order to have JFK and Connally hit by the same bullet - one had to find a medium ground to work from. In other words, one cannot have JFK hit at Z193/195 and Connally shot at Z223/224 and have the shooting be done by one man. So they split the difference and said JFK reacted immediately and Connally must have had a delayed reaction, which was hogwash

Trouble being:

1. To date, all of the proof necessary to expose the "hogwash" has never been accurately presented.

2. As presented previously, the misrepresentation of the facts/aka the SBT Theory, came about primarly as a result of the means of correction to the first lie as presented by JEH & Company, which by the way was caught early on by those who knew the operating speed of the film as compared with the elapsed frames between what JEH claimed as the first shot fired and the second shot fired.

And, since the JEH scenario was also an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination, I for one see no benefit to be derived in basing anything of probative value on what was also an intentional lie/misrepresentation of the facts.

That forward motion can only be the direct result of the transfer of momentum of the bullet ripping through his chest.

I would suppose that were I to own a crystal ball with the clarity which yours apparantly has, that I too would be able to make such definitive statements.

Until then, I must assume that there are a variety of different reasons for the motions and actions of persons within the Presidential Limousine.

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"Additionally, it leaves you with at least one additional shooter - does it not?"

Not that I am aware of!

Perhaps you should not cut class!

Z-312/313------5.8 (+/-) seconds later:---------SECOND SHOT FIRED

Exactly what is so difficult with that?

How may shots do you believe were fired in total? I was assuming that you were covering the - 'Oswald did it alone, three shots from the TSBD' line. One less bullet is one more problem?

- lee

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1-second = 18.3 elapsed frames of the Z-film, which perhaps even you can understand.

So, exactly HOW? many frames of the film has elapsed in "immediately"?

Because we are talking about Mary Woodard's interpretation, then we should go by what she has said. The President was directly even with her position along Elm Street and was looking to his immediate right at her and the women she was standing while waving and smiling at them when the shot sounded and he immediately stopped his wave and brought his hand to a position in front of his face. Mary believed that to be when the President was first hit. When was JFK waving and smiling and when did he pull his hand towards his face ... the Zapruder film shows this occurence, thus it could be as soon as Z193 to Z198 or less than 1/3 of a second.

post-1084-1152129231_thumb.gif

I would suppose that were I to own a crystal ball with the clarity which yours apparantly has, that I too would be able to make such definitive statements.

Until then, I must assume that there are a variety of different reasons for the motions and actions of persons within the Presidential Limousine.

I am talking about the laws of physics when it comes to the transfer of momentum. No crystal ball is needed ... maybe if you can get the software that will allow you to make stabilized clips of the Zapruder film - you will then be able to do overlays showing the precise moment that Connally's right shoulder is shoved forward. Even Dale Myers realized this happened at Z223/224.

Bill Miller

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1-second = 18.3 elapsed frames of the Z-film, which perhaps even you can understand.

So, exactly HOW? many frames of the film has elapsed in "immediately"?

Because we are talking about Mary Woodard's interpretation, then we should go by what she has said. The President was directly even with her position along Elm Street and was looking to his immediate right at her and the women she was standing while waving and smiling at them when the shot sounded and he immediately stopped his wave and brought his hand to a position in front of his face. Mary believed that to be when the President was first hit. When was JFK waving and smiling and when did he pull his hand towards his face ... the Zapruder film shows this occurence, thus it could be as soon as Z193 to Z198 or less than 1/3 of a second.

post-1084-1152129231_thumb.gif

I would suppose that were I to own a crystal ball with the clarity which yours apparantly has, that I too would be able to make such definitive statements.

Until then, I must assume that there are a variety of different reasons for the motions and actions of persons within the Presidential Limousine.

I am talking about the laws of physics when it comes to the transfer of momentum. No crystal ball is needed ... maybe if you can get the software that will allow you to make stabilized clips of the Zapruder film - you will then be able to do overlays showing the precise moment that Connally's right shoulder is shoved forward. Even Dale Myers realized this happened at Z223/224.

Bill Miller

thus it could be as soon as Z193 to Z198 or less than 1/3 of a second.[/b]

Yep! It "could" be anywhere along in here. But then again, it "could" be at some point prior, as well as some point past this point.

And, since neither you, nor I, have access to the original Z-film, or the first generation copy as was in the possession of the US Secret Service, then "most probably" the location of the position of JFK at impact of the first shot, would be somewhere within the realm of his location at approximately Z-205 (as determined by the Time/Life survey work of November, 1963, or the approximately Z-208/210 (as determined by the US Secret Service in December, 1963.

And, I for one am more inclined to agree with the Time/Life determination since this position also correlates with the "jiggle/blur" analysis in which the WC inadvertedly omitted the blurred frames from their printing of frames of the film.

Plus the added fact that Time/Life was in possession of the original film, and not unlike the SS, had no original need to lie, and exactly located the position of JFK at impact of the Z-312/313 head shot. (As did the US Secret Service as well)

you will then be able to do overlays showing the precise moment that Connally's right shoulder is shoved forward. Even Dale Myers realized this happened at Z223/224.

Personally, I have no doubts that JBC's shoulder moves forward. My doubts center around some great ability to state that this movement is the result of impact by a bullet fired from the rear.

Sorry! All that I see is a forward movement, just can not seem to distinguish the bullet in flight which is claimed as responsible for this action.

And, since I saw no benefit to be derived in accepting as fact, any of the other lies and misrepresentations of the WC, then I also see no benefit to be derived in accepting that JBC is hit by a bullet at/around Z223/224.

Especially since this concept was first fostered by none other then J. Edgar Hoover.

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"Additionally, it leaves you with at least one additional shooter - does it not?"

Not that I am aware of!

Perhaps you should not cut class!

Z-312/313------5.8 (+/-) seconds later:---------SECOND SHOT FIRED

Exactly what is so difficult with that?

How may shots do you believe were fired in total? I was assuming that you were covering the - 'Oswald did it alone, three shots from the TSBD' line. One less bullet is one more problem?

- lee

How may shots do you believe were fired in total? I was assuming that you were covering the - 'Oswald did it alone, three shots from the TSBD' line. One less bullet is one more problem?

1. Three shots were fired!

2. Three shots struck their target!

3. There was a "lone assassin"/lone "shooter" who in all probability was LHO. However, due to his various activities, LHO may have in fact been designated "Ozzie Rabbit", in who the hounds were intentionally intended to chase.----------Unfortunately, we will never, likely know the facts and truths now.

4. First Shot

5. 5.6 to 5.8 Seconds later:----Second Shot/aka Z312/313.

Anyone see anything difficult with this? My 12 year old son could shoot the Carcano this fast with absolute ease and he had never fired ANY rifle in his life other than a small .22 Remington.

6. The THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot down directly in front of James Altgens, some 30+ feet farther down Elm St. than was the Z312/313 head shot.

The only problem with this being that those persons such as Mr. Tony Marsh (I believe it is) that have also finally figured this out, think that there was inadequate time for the Carcano to have fired this shot.

Which basis is of course tied to the known elapsed frames of the Z-film between the shots.

It only gets confusing due to:

1. Attempting to blame most of the wounds in JBC on CE399, which of course never came in contact with JBC.

2. Attempting to explain and blame the head injuries of JFK on a single bullet to the head, when in fact, he was struck in the head by two shots.

3. Attempting to locate the "real" "MAGIC" bullet, and what happened to it.

Tom

P.S. Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear.

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