William Bruce Pitzer

[Judyth Baker]

Thanks, Allan. Now we need to hear from Dan.

Best,

Judyth

[Allan Eaglesham]

Judyth:

On this thread, Dan was already invited by John Simkin to comment on the left-/right-handed issue. He failed to do so.

What do you expect him to say? That he forgot what Mrs. Pitzer told him? Or, oops, he made a mistake? Why does the recent documentary show a drawing of Pitzer lying on his back with a gun in his right hand beside a free-standing ladder leading to a ceiling with a missing tile -- when none of these aspects is true? None of them. I know that none of them is true because I have FOIA-released documents given to me by LTC Marvin himself. Where did all that nonsense come from, and why was he directly associated with it?

Why does LTC Marvin continue to talk of the "assassination" of LCDR Pitzer -- like there is not a shadow of doubt that it was murder? As I understand it, he is at odds with Kent Heiner in this regards -- hence the change in the title of the book-in-preparation from "Smoking Gun, etc." to "Without Smoking Gun, etc."

Does LTC Marvin NEED Pitzer to have been murdered? If so, why? (These are particularly important questions.)

If all of the above stems from Dan's age, I hope you will suggest to him that he "retire." He is succeeding only in adding confusion, to put it kindly.

Allan

[Judyth Baker]

Well, Allan, everything you say certainly makes sense. We need to hear from Dan on these issues. I do hope he will speak uop and clarify things from his point of view. I am a person who views with compassion because I have myself been unconscionably attacked. In our own exchanges, you have given me a fair opportunity to present my viewpoint. Knowing that, it is puzzling to me how there can be such disparity in this matter.

I do believe Dan Marvin's account that he was approached.

I did see a photo that was sent around. I also did see that drawing at some time before it was shown on the Canadian produced film. Since being bashed on the head twice, my short term memory is unfortunately lacking in precision. My long-term memories (pre-1979 or so) are all apparently intact, thank God. I went through important psychiatric examinations after those traumas whyich I'd never been able to pay for, but were covered by insurance.

In a way a blessing, as I took the MMPI II and came out as normal as can be. My IQ was intact, highest they had ever tested in their facility. I scorched through a test book nobody had completed in the time limit and asked for more, etc. It was learned I was not prone to fantasize, make up stories, etc. All that was great because it has muzzled my critics, that I''m an honest and non-pathological personality.

But dear God, my memory for recent events! It's awful! I had trouble, for example, recognizing Nigel Turner's chief photographer when he arrived and did not want to let him in--after seeing him the previous day. I could not, for some time, recognize my sdurroundings if I walked more than a block away. Now I no longer have those problems, but it has taken a lot of hard work to regain a modicum of former function in the short-term memory department.

But those experiences taught me a valuable lesson: it is easy to lose memory, and not recognize it is happening. As people get older, they may scramble earlier memories. In short, this may not be Dan's fault, as I of all people am painfully aware that sometimes new ionformation may not sink in.

Whatever the reason, we need to hear from Dan point by point on these matters. I know he is up to his eyebrows with a lawsuit. I know Dan as an honorable man. Age can change things. Whatever, we need to get to the bottom of this. I do believe that Dan WILL respond. I can imagine your consternation if you had this experience.

One other thing you said also deeply concerned me, that Dan taped people without their knowledge. I ACCIDENTALLY taped somebody once, when I put my tape recorder down into my purse upside down, it pushed it on. And lo, I thereby DO have just ONE recording made without knowledge of the person. Foprtunately, it happened in Texas, where only one of two people involved in the recording need to know (which of course is nasty). But otherwise, I always told people I was recording and often was told to put it away.

So that does concern me and we need to hear from Dan about that as well, because that is once more a serious and troubling declaration that you have made.

I am weary after speaking last night on Black Op radio. The streaming radio program will be available to anyonme who wishes to hear it in their archives. It will be the ONLY radio program I'll ever give from now on, to the best of my knowledge. There is a program in Bl;ack Op's archives I haven't accessed there that has Dan Marvin as featured speaker. I urge all of us to hear it and compare with the issues being raised.

The truth must come before all else.

It supercedes personal feelings. It has to.

I regret that I will not be able to continue this thread. My time is severely limited, not only because of my book, but also because I'm writing my dissertation on John Gay's The Beggar's Opera through the centuries. I have eye problems and can only work on these things for so long and can no longer literally see. Then I have many, many typos. So this will have to be the end of my comments here, with the great hope that Dan Marvin will respond when he feels comfortable to address these issues.

I continue toi retain affection and respect for this good man and am entirely puzzled at the disparities in your two accounts. We could use a good timeline here, from when this issue was first raised on The Men Who Killed Kennedy documentary and what was said there, to where the disparities began.

I do NOT accept EVERYTHING the áuthorities'offer, however. I am still concerned about the footprint, which seems to me to be either sloppy crime scene work, or a piece of ignored evidence. Either way, the footprint should not have been ignored and dismissed as it has been. It should have been vigorously looked into. It vwas not. That means, to me, that the investigation had flaws. This further means I cannot acccept blindly everything coming from the investigation seocnd-hand, would like to see these documents posted so all of us can see just how thorough this investigation was.

I ask that they be posted here instead of gojng to your weebsite because there is always the chance that over time your website will vanish, whereas the archives of this forum presumably will not. It was very irritating to have someone, for example, cite A.J. weberman's site--which then went down for what, two years? It is up again, but the old addresses do not work now. The same could happen to your website. So please, Allan, bring over the salient documents to this forum, so that we can see them and keep them in the thread as accessible exhiobits to which we can refer at once. It's important, and I hope you'll respond to this suggestion for the sake of everyone who needs this information.

As for me, I will pop in when my eyes are in good condition to read what happens here between you and Dan. And John, thanks for the opportunity to have this information become available to all.

Sincerely,

Judyth Vary Baker

please forgive typos....!

[Allan Eaglesham]

Judyth:

A Web-site does not pop up in a vacuum. I have taken pains to keep interested parties up to date on the most salient developments in this important case. It has taken money, but much more importantly it has taken time at a stage in my life when time is my most precious resource.

Also, I have published four articles in JFK/Deep Politics Quarterly on this subject, and plan at least one more. They are out there.

In short, I just don't have time to scan and post the relevant documents beyond what is already available at

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Pitzer.html

Almost every point made there is backed up with documentary proof.

On a different subject: inconsistencies remain, including the heel print. No case is 100% airtight, but I am still trying to fill in gaps.

Beyond what has come up already, one thing needs to be clarified by LTC Marvin: why has he claimed twice on forums, including this one, that I am working for the CIA? Where is his proof? Doesn't he owe you more information on that? Aren't you concerned that information that you have provided to me via e-mail may be going to Langley? You used the word unconscionable to describe my criticisms of him. Not so; my criticisms have been an obligation. The muddying of the waters of this case by LTC Marvin is unconscionable. At risk of appearing to protest too much -- but obviously I cannot ignore this issue -- it is laughable, and speaks volumes regarding the person, Daniel Marvin.

Allan

[Guest DangerousDan]

As some of you may know I am in the process of building a foundation of corroboration and irrefutable evidence for my attorney to use in the defense of Kris Milligan and myself against a million dollar lawsuit brought against my book EXPENDABLE ELITE - One Soldier's Journey Into Covert Warfare. I am certain, after speaking with one of the Plaintiffs earlier today, that the federal suit was brought about by agencies within the government using the very men I wrote of in the book as the heroes they indeed were to challenge me; I assume through intimidation of one sort or another.

I am also putting together a complete historically aligned and document or individual testimony supported supported response to the many spurious allegations and/or character attacks of the past by Dr Eaglesham and I hereby challenge him to go back through what has transpired and respond to my inquiries in an open and honorable fashion. These responses will be categorized by specific areas of interest and will be presented on my website - www.expendableelite.com -within the discussion part of the forum. I will be back to provide the URL for each assemblage of truth as soon as they are individually compiled and posted to my website.

Toward an honorable soluion to the murders of the century.. JFK, RFK, MLK and WBP.

[Judyth Baker]

Dan, I look forward to seeing your response.

==Judyth===

[Allan Eaglesham]

The point of Marvin's post is to induce people to visit his Web site, the objective of which is to sell books.

I invite anyone interested to go back through this thread and ask: "Who dodged questions, Eaglesham or Marvin?"

Essential reading on Marvin's unearthing of the truth, etc., etc., is here:

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Article-8.html

Allan Eaglesham

[Wim Dankbaar]

Essential reading on Marvin's unearthing of the truth, etc., etc., is here:

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Article-8.html

Allan Eaglesham

Let me emphasize that this is Allan Eaglesham's OPINION.

Just like his OPINION that there is not a sincere bone in me.

Wim

Edited June 9, 2004 by dankbaar

[Wim Dankbaar]

http://www.jfkmurder.com/knudsen.html

In 1977, Mr. Groden had examined the "known" autopsy photographs in the National Archives while he was Staff Photographic Consultant for the House Select Committee on Assassinations. He noticed that several photographs were missing from the known inventory and he also discovered and reported to the HSCA that about a half dozen others, that were not in the original inventory, were now present in the Archives' collection. In his report to the HSCA, Mr. Groden reported that he had noticed that some of the photographs, notably those showing the rear of the president's head, had been retouched photographically. The insert lines and contrast changes were quite evident.

No other members of the HSCA photo panel were aware of the testimony of the Dallas doctors about the massive exit wound in President Kennedy's head. "They didn't know what to look for." stated Mr. Groden.

-------------

The House Assassinations Committee suppressed both Mr. Knudsen's testimony and Mr. Groden's report of the alteration.

"It is quite important that there were other cameras." said Mr. Groden, "There were four autopsy photographers (and cameras) in all." John Stringer, William Bruce Pitzer, Robert L. Knudsen and Floyd Riebe. Mr. Pitzer was murdered soon after President Kennedy's autopsy to silence him. The existence of the other two or three additional sets of autopsy photographs have been concealed from the public and investigative agencies for thirty-five years.

Additionally, testimony was received by the review board that Mr. Pitzer was, at the time of his death, in possession of a 16 millimeter film of the autopsy which he had taken during the autopsy examination and been working on at the time he was murdered. The film disappeared and has never again surfaced. No one from any of the five governmental investigations has seen any of these other three sets. The only set they've seen contain the doctored photographs which show a photographically rebuilt rear of the head to disguise the large exit wound which was in the back of President Kennedy's head. The proof of at least one more gunman and, of course, a conspiracy."

© 1999 New Frontier Publications. All rights reserved.

[Sydney Wilkinson]

I am an interested outsider who is new to this forum and definitely a novice on this subject - so please forgive me if my questions have already been addressed elsewhere.

There are a few points about the Pitzer case that really irk me:

1. Per Mr. Groden's testimony about the 4 photographers who were present (with cameras) during the autopsy....and, "Mr. Pitzer at the time of his death was in possession of a 16millimeter film of the autopsy which he had taken during the autopsy examination..." implies that Pitzer's was not using a still camera but a 16 millimeter film camera, which records moving images.

Most of the photographic information I've read about the autopsy refers to still photographs and not a 16mm film of moving images. Is there any way to verify if it is true that Pitzer was shooting moving film as opposed to still pictures? And if so, perhaps he had additional evidence that the other still photographers didn't capture? It was also, much more difficult to "doctor" moving film images than still photographs back in the 1960's.

2. Did I read correctly that Pitzer's family did not receive the autopsy report until 1990? If so, what is the government's reason for waiting 23 years before releasing it to them? Especially if the report was completed in the Feb. of 1967? And which gov. agency "officially" ruled his death a suicide? Maybe I'm just naive, but if my husband or father had been found dead by a bullet to the head in 1966, and he hadn't left any kind of suicide note, there is no way on earth that I would have waited quietly and patiently until 1990 for an autopsy report - unless perhaps I had been properly threatened.....

3. I have no doubt that the HSCA surpressed a lot of crucial evidence. Has anyone contacted those members of the committee who are still alive for an interview?

Many thanks,

Sydney Wilkinson

ps: A personal note - I thank Mr. Marvin, Mr. Dankbaar and Ms. Baker for showing the kind of courage that is so rare in our world today.

[Allan Eaglesham]

Mr. Wilkinson:

Not everyone is aware that information may be obtained from the government via the Freedom of Information Act. Mrs. Pitzer obtained the autopsy report on her husband soon after being put in touch with lawyer Jim Lesar by author Harrison Livingstone.

You may find this Web-site interesting:

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Pitzer.html

With kind regards,

Allan Eaglesham

[Wim Dankbaar]

Sydney,

Please let us know if you can find all the answers to your questions on Mr. Eaglesham's website.

Wim

[Guest DangerousDan]

I will share with Forum members what I wrote Tim Toidze on this date:

11 June 2004

13th VERSION – Tim B. Toidze – Producer and Editor

Comments after review of above film

by

LTC Daniel Marvin, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

Dear Tim,

I seem to have confused the issue of my acceptance of your excellent documentary 13TH VERSION. I have not taken the time to watch the film until today. I am very far in debt and I am 70 years old and I am not willing to cease and desist on any of my crusades but am needing to spend as much time in my repair shop making money to attempt to pay off some debts that were all brought about by my efforts to write my book, get it published and help as many South

Vietnamese who I had lived with and fought alongside, along with their families into this country, grow vegetables for a better diet and fighting the daily battles to ward off those who would assassinate my character and the characters of others who similarly struggle for the truth. I apologize to any who have been concerned that I had not yet viewed 13th Version.

In the past I commended you and your crew on a job well done based a complete review (actually going thru it two times) by a dedicated and honorable friend who has been working "in the shadows" for years to help me in my various crusades to rid our government of evil in many places. His word to me was what I echoed to you earlier and which you and others took to be my close and personal report of viewing. I understand and I again apologize.

When I received an e-mail from Wim Dankbaar (a brave and honorable man whom I admire) this morning asking why I hadn't viewed the film, I sat right down and watched it. I consider it an excellent work - an honorable effort to help get the truth out to the world.

Please know that I highly regard what you have done and this nation, indeed the world, will benefit from the efforts of you, Wim Dankbaar, Pamela Ray, Jimmy Files, Judyth Baker, and Kent Heiner to bring forth and publish the truth in one form or another.

I wanted to add the fact that I stand by everything I said in the 13th Version. Every single detail of what I know from personal experience and what has been told me by persons whom I have no reason to disbelieve and whom I trust will have been provided by me to Kent Heiner by the end of this month for his use in finalizing the book he is writing about the murder of William Bruce Pitzer. It is most likely difficult for the average person to understand how men can lend themselves to the heinous activities of an assassin, terrorist or saboteur, whether it be for our supposedly legitimate government, the Mafia or some other criminal organization. It happens. I thank God that I was led to the Lord Jesus Christ and that my trust in Him and fear of Him has given me the courage to come out with the truth.

Your friend in the battle for justice.

LTC Daniel Marvin, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

[John Simkin]

William Matson Law, In the Eye of History (2005)

http://jfklancer.com/catalog/law/index.html

Law: What happened to Bill Pitzer?

David: As l said, Bill was one of my mentors - and I took the program for MSC in '64 then - starting early '64 - and missed it. They selected forty - I was forty third on the list. In 1965 I applied for and took the program again. And there were sixty selected that year, and I was number two on the selection list. So then, in late August of '65, Congress passed the bill and the president signed the bill, and I became an officer and a gentleman (laughter). I used to laugh about that because I used to say, "Well, they made me an officer, but my mother made me a gentlemen." At least I tried to be, before that. I left Bethesda in the first week in December of '65 to go to Officer's School and Naval Justice School in Newport, Rhode Island, And shortly before I left, Bill indicated to me that he was getting ready to retire - probably in '66 - and he would have had, I think, thirty years at that time. He had been through the second world war for one thing. So I left, and reported in at Newport, Rhode Island, in the early part of January.

I went through the three weeks at Officer's Training School and Naval justice School, and was assigned to a naval hospital in Great Lakes - one of the jobs I had there was as an assistant to one of the department heads. I was in the lobby of the hospital at Great Lakes when Lieutenant Commander Barb Munroe came in and saw me and came over, and of course we renewed old friendships. And she said, "By the way, did you know Bill's dead?" And I said, "No, what happened?" Then she said, "Well, he shot himself." I said, "I don't believe that." And she said, "Well they found him with a gun in his right hand, and he blew his brains out." And I said, "But Bill's left-handed..." That's what I recall, because sometimes - back at Bethesda, Barb, Bill, and I would play bridge together - he sometimes would deal the cards in reverse, you know instead of dealing them clockwise he would deal them counter clockwise (with his left hand) and we'd kid him about it.

That was the first time I had heard he was dead. I asked, "Well, why did he commit suicide?" And she said "It's highly questionable that he did." I said, "Well, it stands to reason." And then she said something to me about, "Did you know that he'd had some pretty good job offers?" And I said I had, and that just before the last time I'd seen him, just before I'd left Bethesda, he'd told me that lie had some very lucrative offers from a couple of the national networks like ABC, CBS, to go to work for them. I said, "I suspect it was probably because of some of the films and the material he had from the assassination." She said, "You know he had those?" And I said, "Yes, because l was over there a couple, three days after the autopsy and saw them." She kind of nodded her head as though she agreed with me, or something like that.

Law: Did she apparently know that he had the film?

David: I don't know whether she did. She seemed surprised when I told her that I knew about it though. Now whatever that was -the reaction - that was the first time she heard... we really didn't discuss it too much after that, because even in '67 - excuse me, in '66 May or June - you still didn't talk about what you knew, your experiences on the night of the assassination. It was still classified information.

Law: It's not so unusual that somebody would commit suicide. It happens every day. Why do you feel that Bill Pitzer would not have done this?

David: Because I knew the man. You can say well, lie wasn't the type to commit suicide. Well, what type will commit suicide? I don't know, it was just a gut feeling. I didn't think that he would do it. He had been through too many stressful situations in his life. Second world war-he had been in and out of Vietnam for various and sundry reasons-dealing with classified information and I didn't think-you know, lie was not a weak personality type, or type of person who would ever run into anything he couldn't handle, whether it be stressful or whatever, mental. I knew lie had some problems with his kids, but lie generally had a "well you know it will work itself out" attitude towards that. So I don't know. I just didn't feel like lie was the kind of man who would commit suicide.

[Allan Eaglesham]

William Matson Law, In the Eye of History (2005)

http://jfklancer.com/catalog/law/index.html

Law: What happened to Bill Pitzer?

David: As l said, Bill was one of my mentors - and I took the program for MSC in '64 then - starting early '64 - and missed it. They selected forty - I was forty third on the list. In 1965 I applied for and took the program again. And there were sixty selected that year, and I was number two on the selection list. So then, in late August of '65, Congress passed the bill and the president signed the bill, and I became an officer and a gentleman (laughter). I used to laugh about that because I used to say, "Well, they made me an officer, but my mother made me a gentlemen." At least I tried to be, before that. I left Bethesda in the first week in December of '65 to go to Officer's School and Naval Justice School in Newport, Rhode Island, And shortly before I left, Bill indicated to me that he was getting ready to retire - probably in '66 - and he would have had, I think, thirty years at that time. He had been through the second world war for one thing. So I left, and reported in at Newport, Rhode Island, in the early part of January.

I went through the three weeks at Officer's Training School and Naval justice School, and was assigned to a naval hospital in Great Lakes - one of the jobs I had there was as an assistant to one of the department heads. I was in the lobby of the hospital at Great Lakes when Lieutenant Commander Barb Munroe came in and saw me and came over, and of course we renewed old friendships. And she said, "By the way, did you know Bill's dead?" And I said, "No, what happened?" Then she said, "Well, he shot himself." I said, "I don't believe that." And she said, "Well they found him with a gun in his right hand, and he blew his brains out." And I said, "But Bill's left-handed..." That's what I recall, because sometimes - back at Bethesda, Barb, Bill, and I would play bridge together - he sometimes would deal the cards in reverse, you know instead of dealing them clockwise he would deal them counter clockwise (with his left hand) and we'd kid him about it.

That was the first time I had heard he was dead. I asked, "Well, why did he commit suicide?" And she said "It's highly questionable that he did." I said, "Well, it stands to reason." And then she said something to me about, "Did you know that he'd had some pretty good job offers?" And I said I had, and that just before the last time I'd seen him, just before I'd left Bethesda, he'd told me that lie had some very lucrative offers from a couple of the national networks like ABC, CBS, to go to work for them. I said, "I suspect it was probably because of some of the films and the material he had from the assassination." She said, "You know he had those?" And I said, "Yes, because l was over there a couple, three days after the autopsy and saw them." She kind of nodded her head as though she agreed with me, or something like that.

Law: Did she apparently know that he had the film?

David: I don't know whether she did. She seemed surprised when I told her that I knew about it though. Now whatever that was -the reaction - that was the first time she heard... we really didn't discuss it too much after that, because even in '67 - excuse me, in '66 May or June - you still didn't talk about what you knew, your experiences on the night of the assassination. It was still classified information.

Law: It's not so unusual that somebody would commit suicide. It happens every day. Why do you feel that Bill Pitzer would not have done this?

David: Because I knew the man. You can say well, lie wasn't the type to commit suicide. Well, what type will commit suicide? I don't know, it was just a gut feeling. I didn't think that he would do it. He had been through too many stressful situations in his life. Second world war-he had been in and out of Vietnam for various and sundry reasons-dealing with classified information and I didn't think-you know, lie was not a weak personality type, or type of person who would ever run into anything he couldn't handle, whether it be stressful or whatever, mental. I knew lie had some problems with his kids, but lie generally had a "well you know it will work itself out" attitude towards that. So I don't know. I just didn't feel like lie was the kind of man who would commit suicide.

John:

In my opinion, LCDR Pitzer killed himself.

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Pitzer/opinion.html

Allan