Brace, Shirt, Blood and Bullet-hole

[John Dolva]

so as not to divert other thread::

I think it's possible to see signs of the brace and the wrapping that covered it and how it directed blood flow.

If b&c is taken as locating the shirt on the body, and the wrapping pattern, creases, locates the shirt at this point then one a one can see the shirt hole matching the bullet hole.

Above this the shirt collar has a pattern duplicated on the 'across the shoulder blades panel' of the shirt, which also appears to be on the base of the neck.

if this is correct::

One can then see that the shirt bunching occurs largely above the bullet hole.

???

[Cliff Varnell]

so as not to divert other thread::

I think it's possible to see signs of the brace and the wrapping that covered it and how it directed blood flow.

If b&c is taken as locating the shirt on the body, and the wrapping pattern, creases, locates the shirt at this point then one a one can see the shirt hole matching the bullet hole.

Above this the shirt collar has a pattern duplicated on the 'across the shoulder blades panel' of the shirt, which also appears to be on the base of the neck.

if this is correct::

One can then see that the shirt bunching occurs largely above the bullet hole.

???

The brace was wrapped tightly around his waist.

I'm not aware that JFK's waist was chest high...

[John Dolva]

The brace was wrapped around his lower trunk. There's a photo of Kennedy wearing one by a pool. Also over the brace was a complex wrapping. descriptions of the dressing of it indicates it was all pretty tight. I think the top edge of the brace was when sitting somewhere close to below the shoulder blades.

EDIT:: I'm dubious about the exact placing of the brace itself. I can't find the photo at the moment. There are indications on the autopsy photo that the bracing is further down as you indicate, Cliff.

I think he had a couple of braces, one more heavy duty.

I'm trying to work out whether the brace could somehow shift the surface of the body to misplace the wound in the unwrapped/lying on side corpse.

As far as locating the bunching of the shirt irtself. I think there are signs here that the shirt bunching occured above the bullet hole.

So there are two issues here not necessarily completely related.

Edited July 24, 2006 by John Dolva

[Cliff Varnell]

The brace was wrapped around his lower trunk. There's a photo of Kennedy weraing one by a pool. Also over the brace was a complex wrapping. descriptions of the dressing of it indicates it was all pretty tight. I think the top edge of the brace was when sitting somewhere close to below the shoulder blades.

No way! It was wrapped in ace bandages in a figure-8 around his waist and upper thighs.

John, look at the blood splatter pattern above the bullet hole in the shirt.

According to "Bunch Theory" there was a two-inch fold in JFK's shirt, and yet the

blood below the bottom of the collar was fairly evenly spread.

Why didn't the blood collect in the "trough" of the fold, John?

And explain how this Magic Back Brace caused his jacket to move almost exactly

in tandem with his shirt.

And, again, please point out the 4" of bunched up fabric in Betzner #3.

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri4/Betzner_Large.jpg

[John Dolva]

The brace was wrapped around his lower trunk. There's a photo of Kennedy wearing one by a pool. Also over the brace was a complex wrapping. descriptions of the dressing of it indicates it was all pretty tight. I think the top edge of the brace was when sitting somewhere close to below the shoulder blades.

EDIT:: I'm dubious about the exact placing of the brace itself. I can't find the photo at the moment. There are indications on the autopsy photo that the bracing is further down as you indicate, Cliff.

I think he had a couple of braces, one more heavy duty.

I'm trying to work out whether the brace could somehow shift the surface of the body to misplace the wound in the unwrapped/lying on side corpse.

As far as locating the bunching of the shirt irtself. I think there are signs here that the shirt bunching occured above the bullet hole.

So there are two issues here not necessarily completely related.

OK Cliff, I'll look at that.

The match of creases and bloodspots on the shirt and the body in the areas of 'b & c" locates the shirt (IMO). If so then 'a' shows that the distance between the wedge shaped area on both locates the shirthole and the bodyhole. This then places the collar itself perhaps the two inches above the top of the shoulder when the shirt is spread out. For the shirt to then be in position around the neck, the bunching, it would seem to me, is between the hole and the neck.

If you look at the neck collar and below it and on the corresponding area on the body there appears to be three areas that match. This may indicate that the bunching of the shirt is in this area?

Here's a suggested location of the brace based on blood flow.

[Cliff Varnell]

Not only do we have a Magic Back Brace, we have Magic Blood.

According to your theory, there was a two-inch fold in the shirt, but JFK's

Magic Blood avoided not only the "trough" of this alleged fold, it avoided

the back brace altogether.

No blood on the back brace, John.

Splatter paint on a two inch fabric fold and see what kind of splatter pattern

you get. It won't look anything like the blood pattern on JFK's shirt.

[John Dolva]

What splatter? The shirt was against the skin, the coat over that. It's blood flow. Firstly when sitting upright, when the blood seeped/flowed down guided by cloth in the form of shirt creases and brace and wrap.

When the brace is tightened, there should be a gap in the center back, This gap is formed by thick material, thus raising the shirt away from the skin, greating a channel for the blood to flow. My suggestion is that this is the 'tail' of the blood on the shirt.

__________

The brace was washed. Is there statement that it was always clean, no blood?

[Cliff Varnell]

What splatter? The shirt was against the skin, the coat over that. It's blood flow. Firstly when sitting upright, when the blood seeped/flowed down guided by cloth in the form of shirt creases and brace and wrap.

When the brace is tightened, there should be a gap in the center back, This gap is formed by thick material, thus raising the shirt away from the skin, greating a channel for the blood to flow. My suggestion is that this is the 'tail' of the blood on the shirt.

__________

The brace was washed. Is there statement that it was always clean, no blood?

Please cite where the back brace was washed.

Please explain how blood flows "guided by cloth in the form of shirt creases"

without having a heavier flow in the crease "trough" of the cloth.

There are NO creases in the shirt between the bullet hole and the bottom

of the collar. I can't imagine anything more obvious. If you disagree, please

point out where this 2-inch fold existed between the bullet hole and the bottom

of the collar.

And please, can you point out to me where 4 inches of JFK's shirt and jacket were

bunched up in any of the Dealey Plaza motorcade films/photos?

Chad Zimmer could only identify 1-inch of jacket elevation BEFORE the jacket collar

dropped.

The shirt and jacket had to move in tandem (or not move, as is the actual case),

how do you conclude the jacket was pushed up two inches by the back brace

even though the motorcade photos show the jacket dropped an inch?

Edited July 24, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[John Dolva]

I don't understand some of these questions. In time perhaps.

If one had the shirt perhaps it would be easy to see how the various folds occurred.

In the meantime

There are numerous indications of folds etc. The collar blood pattern is matched to the neck.

The are around the hole matches. In between there is an area of cloth wider than this space, hence this is bunched.

Edited July 24, 2006 by John Dolva

[Cliff Varnell]

John, those are very small diagonal blood patterns you are pointing out.

Your theory requires a very large HORIZONTAL fold in the shirt, which

obviously isn't there.

You're claiming that JFK constantly had 4 inches of clothing bunched up at the

base of his neck due to the mysterious action of his Magic Back Brace...

Absurd.

Please show me ONE photo of JFK at ANY time of his life where

this impeccably tailored dude had 4 inches of clothing bunched

up around his neck.

The lengths peope go to to agree with the WC amazes me!

I don't understand some of these questions. In time perhaps.

If one had the shirt perhaps it would be easy to see how the various folds occurred.

In the meantime

There are numerous indications of folds etc. The collar blood pattern is matched to the neck.

The are around the hole matches. In between there is an area of cloth wider than this space, hence this is bunched.

[John Dolva]

It's not a theory, not even a hypothesis. It's an idea I wish to discuss.

I'm not 'claiming that JFK constantly had 4 inches of clothing bunched up at the

base of his neck due to the mysterious action of his Magic Back Brace..."

I'm exploring ideas that account for what's visible.

nothing there is mysterious or magical, that's entirely your notion.

The lengths some people go to turn simple ideas into pro con WC items amazes me.

Tell you what, you don't have to convince me (probably noone else either) of your staunchness. It is however of no interest to me.

[Cliff Varnell]

From the ARRB deposition of former FBI SA James W. Sibert, co-author of the

FBI autopsy report:

(quote on, emphasis added)

Jeremy Gunn: So, now, based upon what you know from what you observed

at the autopsy, do you have any assessment on what happened on November

22nd in Dealey Plaza?

James Sibert: Let me say this. And I've said this before. I won't go

so far as to say there was a conspiracy, but I have always had trouble

assimilating the single-bullet theory. Seeing where the back wound

was, an eyewitness there--12 inches from it, seeing them probe that.

And from what I understand, the bullet holes both in the shirt and coat

match the bullet wound in the back and with the first location that

Humes gave us.

And, of course, they tried to say that if he raised his arm up--But if

you raise your arm up, you're not going to raise your shirt. It's

pinned in there with your belt. Plus the fact that the President wore a

back brace, I understand, that was pretty tight, too, WHICH WOULD HELP

TO HOLD DOWN THE SHIRT. And so, I've always had trouble with the single

bullet or "magic" bullet theory.

(quote off)

Contrary to your Magic Back Brace claims, John, the back brace would

have helped keep the shirt tail nice and snug in JFK's belted trousers.

JFK wore European style suits, a slimmer cut. His tucked-in dress shirt

had no more than 3/4" of slack, enough to allow him to move comfortably

and look good -- the ideal for any well fit clothing.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

It's not a theory, not even a hypothesis. It's an idea I wish to discuss.

I'm not 'claiming that JFK constantly had 4 inches of clothing bunched up at the

base of his neck due to the mysterious action of his Magic Back Brace..."

I'm exploring ideas that account for what's visible.

nothing there is mysterious or magical, that's entirely your notion.

But this 4-inches of bunched fabric is NOT visible in any of the motorcade

photos.

So I guess the mystery is why you think there's something there when you can't

even point it out.

The lengths some people go to turn simple ideas into pro con WC items amazes me.

What "simple idea"? What you are describing seems beyond any known physics.

What you are describing is not present in any of the photographs of John F. Kennedy.

Do you realize that "Bunch Theory" is a corollary of the Single Bullet Theory?

Don't blame me because you choose to use the language of obfuscation perfected by

Specter & Co.

Tell you what, you don't have to convince me (probably noone else either) of your staunchness. It is however of no interest to me.

Fair enough.

Don't you have to take into account what is *possible*?

You couldn't replicate this "bunch" notion of yours using both hands to pull on the

clothing fabric.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Jack White]

I am baffled by John's placement of the shirt. He has it much too high.

Jack

[John Dolva]

"Don't you have to take into account what is *possible*?"

good point. I'll backtrack. I've removed the imagery to this point and will start with the basics.

The brace itself.

Which is the front and which is the back of the brace?

Anyone KNOW? I don't.

Should one look at it as a weightlifters brace where the widest part is in the front? Is it more like a corset with the ties on the back?

This photo, I think, locates it on the body, but in this instance the lightweight brace outside the shirt?

EDIT:: ????

FRONT > BACK

BACK > FRONT

Edited July 25, 2006 by John Dolva