Brace, Shirt, Blood and Bullet-hole

[John Dolva]

I think this is the back.

Here reconstructed with the two 'wings' pulled together, with the straps folded out. The left strap would wrap back over the lacing, around the body and clip on to the end of the right strap.

(on the image in previous post, I suspect that the slice of a semicircle visible on the bottom of what would be the front, belongs to the front)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The brace was wrapped around his lower trunk. There's a photo of Kennedy wearing one by a pool. Also over the brace was a complex wrapping. descriptions of the dressing of it indicates it was all pretty tight. I think the top edge of the brace was when sitting somewhere close to below the shoulder blades.

EDIT:: I'm dubious about the exact placing of the brace itself. I can't find the photo at the moment. There are indications on the autopsy photo that the bracing is further down as you indicate, Cliff.

I think he had a couple of braces, one more heavy duty.

I'm trying to work out whether the brace could somehow shift the surface of the body to misplace the wound in the unwrapped/lying on side corpse.

As far as locating the bunching of the shirt irtself. I think there are signs here that the shirt bunching occured above the bullet hole.

So there are two issues here not necessarily completely related.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsmithET.htm

JFK with Earl Smith poolside.

[John Dolva]

Thanks Tom.

___________

How I reason it is that the brace was put on first followed by the bandage wrap, the shirt and the coat.

Dr Carrico didn't see the wrap but he saw that the shirt went over the brace. I think when the nurses cut his clothes off they cut the bandages at the same time so when peeling it back he could see the buckle in the front.. He placed the top of the front part of the brace at the navel.

The clothes were all removed after death and handed to a SS agent. (who?)

bits::

Mr. Specter.

Was there any coat covering his face?

Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy---do you want me to tell about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes.

Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the President and her hat* was also lying on top of the President as he was brought into the emergency room. After the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.

-------------------------

Mr. Specter.

What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Mr. Specter.

How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went---ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said. And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we--

Mr. Specter.

When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. Specter.

Anybody besides the two of you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

according to Dr Carrico at Parkland the brace was underneath the shirt. He recalls it was buckled in the front. He doesn't recall the bandage wrapping. After this his attention was drawn to the head area.

afterwards Reg. Nurse Henchcliffe and Reg. Nurse(British) Bowron collected his clothing and handed them to a SS agent. (Presumably Jackies hat was with this bundle)

*tracking Jackies hat. Did it go to the SS agent with Kennedy's clothing, with Mrs Kennedy or into the laundry hamper?

Edited July 25, 2006 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

the part image of the shirt inteneded to be used to try to answer the question posed in this thread is in full size here

http://files.photoje...ee/jfkshirt.png

so those who want to can check

it's an enhanced and much enlarged portion of a copy of an image from the web. The best I could find, which is not all that good, but I think sufficient for this purpose. A better copy that will clearly show the pinstripes no doubt exist. If anyone has a very good copy of the shirt please post a link or email deleted

the bullet hole has been slghtly enlarged so it can be located/layered on top of the back for easy centering

good copies of the standard back autopsy photos are readily available from Lancer.

Edited February 22, 2013 by John Dolva

[J. William King]

This picture shows Kennedy just as he was turning onto Houston Street. He seems to be leaning a bit forward, but the jacket look like it's already riding high. In fact, it looks almost like he has padding under it. If he were to sit back without adjusting his suitcoat, I can see where it may have gotten bunched.

JWK

[Cliff Varnell]

This picture shows Kennedy just as he was turning onto Houston Street. He seems to be leaning a bit forward, but the jacket look like it's already riding high. In fact, it looks almost like he has padding under it. If he were to sit back without adjusting his suitcoat, I can see where it may have gotten bunched.

JWK

"Bunch" has a very specific meaning for folks.

How are YOU defining it?

By "bunch" do you mean ANY fabric fold, in which case it has no meaning

in this context?

Or do you mean the 3 inches of elevated shirt and jacket fabric required

by the SBT?

Or do you mean the 2 inches of elevated fabric required by the Vichy-CTs

who claim that the back wound was at T1?

Now, compare these claims with what can clearly be seen in the photos.

Let's start with a photo comparison between JFK in Fort Worth, and JFK

on Main St.:

Standing before the crowd in Fort Worth, we see JFK's jacket collar, 1.25 inches

wide at the nape of the neck.

Above the top of the jacket collar was 0.5 inch of exposed shirt collar.

The distance between the top of the shirt collar and JFK's hairline was

about 1 inch.

On Main St. we see JFK with his head turned to the right, waving his right arm.

Note the diagonal fold in the jacket -- indicating that the jacket was pushed

up AND sideways.

Note that the top of the jacket collar rode up into his hairline, a distance of about

1.5 inches.

Here's JFK on Houston St.:

The jacket collar rode over the top of the shirt collar, but not into the hairline.

JFK's jacket was elevated an inch on Houston St.

Now check out the Towner film...As the limo rounded the corner onto Elm St,

his jacket collar had fallen to a normal position at the base of his neck,

exposing the 0.5 inch of shirt collar at the nape of his neck.

http://www.jfk-online.com/Towner.mpg

Now, hit the following link and enlarge. Locate JFK under the freeway sign.

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri4/Betzner_Large.jpg

This is Betzner #3, taken at Z186. JFK was in the same posture as the

Main St. photo cited above -- he was turned to the right, waving his right

arm. His shirt collar was exposed at the back of his neck, and there was a

vertical/diagonal fold in the jacket at his left shoulder -- similar to the fold

on Main St. but more vertical.

The jacket collar had fallen an inch in Dealey Plaza, and the fabric below

the collar was "bunched" mostly sideways and slightly up.

I contend it is intellectually dishonest to claim that there existed either

a 3-inch or a 2-inch horizontal fold at the base of JFK's neck at Z186.

Vertical is not horizontal. A jacket dropping is not the same action as a

jacket bunching up multiple inches. The jacket collar could not possibly

occupy the same physical space at the base of JFK's neck as 4 - 6 inches

of bunched up fabric.

One can only wonder when LNers and Vichy-CTs will quit making these

egregiously dishonest claims.

The above is purely a rhetorical question. LNers will never admit it, and

Vichy CTs don't want the Great JFK Parlor Game to end, they want to

"answer the question of conspiracy" with their own more complicated

research.

There is really nothing in my analysis, by the way, that wasn't pointed out

40 years ago by Fonzi, Salandria and Weisberg.

The Great JFK Parlor Game is dead, folks. Long live the Parlor Game...

[Thomas H. Purvis]

the part image of the shirt inteneded to be used to try to answer the question posed in this thread is in full size here

http://files.photojerk.com/yanndee/jfkshirt.png

so those who want to can check

it's an enhanced and much enlarged portion of a copy of an image from the web. The best I could find, which is not all that good, but I think sufficient for this purpose. A better copy that will clearly show the pinstripes no doubt exist. If anyone has a very good copy of the shirt please post a link or email yanndee@yahoo.co.uk.

the bullet hole has been slghtly enlarged so it can be located/layered on top of the back for easy centering

good copies of the standard back autopsy photos are readily available from Lancer.

John;

It would appear that with your "stain transfer" work, you have entered completely new and untouched ground in demonstration of the blood stains of the shirt and the seen blood stains on the back of JFK.

Kind of demonstrates that the "experts" in these fields may have something to learn.

Thanks,

Tom

[Thomas H. Purvis]

the part image of the shirt inteneded to be used to try to answer the question posed in this thread is in full size here

http://files.photojerk.com/yanndee/jfkshirt.png

so those who want to can check

it's an enhanced and much enlarged portion of a copy of an image from the web. The best I could find, which is not all that good, but I think sufficient for this purpose. A better copy that will clearly show the pinstripes no doubt exist. If anyone has a very good copy of the shirt please post a link or email yanndee@yahoo.co.uk.

the bullet hole has been slghtly enlarged so it can be located/layered on top of the back for easy centering

good copies of the standard back autopsy photos are readily available from Lancer.

John;

It would appear that with your "stain transfer" work, you have entered completely new and untouched ground in demonstration of the blood stains of the shirt and the seen blood stains on the back of JFK.

Kind of demonstrates that the "experts" in these fields may have something to learn.

Thanks,

Tom

Here is the closeup of the back entry from the HSCA collection (JFK Exhibit F-22) in event it is of any help.

[John Dolva]

OK, obviously it's a serious misnomer. Thank you Cliff for pointing it out. I'll try and think of something more neutral and if necessary ask John Simkin to rename so as not to confuse the issue.. As Tom points out it's a look at the stains on the shirt and seeing what can be known thereof.

The genesis of the idea was in an other thread where I wondered whether the brace had some effect on placement of body tissue that then might shift when the brace is removed and therefore shift the bullet hole. The photo of the back is with Kennedy lying on his side and without living tension in muscles and with blood drained. The thinking there was to see whether it can be worked out to what extent it may be a factor.

So the first step seems to be to work out where the brace was in relation to everything as it was so tightly wrapped (and therefore likely to remain in situ), and to work from there.

A start there is to look at the blood stains on the shirt.

Hence the thread. a Poor name choice.

----------------------------------------------------

So back to on-topic.

Tom::"completely new and untouched ground"

That's very interesting Tom. I hope those who understand the idea then will follow and critique most rigorously, and to repeat it separately as well. If it is indeed of significance, it belongs to us all.

Edited July 27, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

OK, obviously it's a serious misnomer. Thank you Cliff for pointing it out. I'll try and think of something more neutral and if necessary ask John Simkin to rename so as not to confuse the issue.. As Tom points out it's a look at the stains on the shirt and seeing what can be known thereof.

The genesis of the idea was in an other thread where I wondered whether the brace had some effect on placement of body tissue that then might shift when the brace is removed and therefore shift the bullet hole. The photo of the back is with Kennedy lying on his side and without living tension in muscles and with blood drained. The thinking there was to see whether it can be worked out to what extent it may be a factor.

So the first step seems to be to work out where the brace was in relation to everything as it was so tightly wrapped (and therefore likely to remain in situ), and to work from there.

A start there is to look at the blood stains on the shirt.

Hence the thread. a Poor name choice.

----------------------------------------------------

So back to on-topic.

Tom::"completely new and untouched ground"

That's very interesting Tom. I hope those who understand the idea then will follow and critique most rigorously, and to repeat it separately as well. If it is indeed of significance, it belongs to us all.

Not unlike the required number of match points in fingerprint analysis, it is unlikely that you will find adequate points to make an "absolute" statement.

However, I do believe that you will find several points of "common ground".

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"Don't you have to take into account what is *possible*?"

good point. I'll backtrack. I've removed the imagery to this point and will start with the basics.

The brace itself.

Which is the front and which is the back of the brace?

Anyone KNOW? I don't.

Should one look at it as a weightlifters brace where the widest part is in the front? Is it more like a corset with the ties on the back?

This photo, I think, locates it on the body, but in this instance the lightweight brace outside the shirt?

EDIT:: ????

FRONT > BACK

BACK > FRONT

John;

The image on the left in the FBI Exhibit C-35 is the "Ace Bandage".

It is merely folded up.

Somewhere, in some testimony or discussions, I seem to recall that the ace bandage was worn under the back brace.

I will attempt to find where I got this from.

Tom

[John Dolva]

That would be good, Tom. I've been puzzling on that and it looks to me like two piles, and one of them has many 'ends' as if it is a pile of cut bandages.

This makes sense to me when one takes DrCarrico's statement that he didn't see the wrap but he saw that the shirt went over the brace into account. I think when the nurses cut his clothes off they cut the bandages at the same time so when peeling it back he could see the buckle in the front.

Also he saw the top of the front part of the brace at the navel.

I figure the Nurses in cutting off his clothing cut the top layer of bandages off perhaps without knowing what was there* as I imagine speed was of the essence. So when Dr Carrico saw it he could see the brace and buckle but no bandages.

It also makes sense to have some inner lining. Whether that would be bandage or the lining built into the brace itself, perhaps the information you look for can answer.

*if one looks carefully on the front part of the FBI bracephoto one can see a ragged triangle on the top left of centre.

________________________________

notes on some things to consider (IMO)

the photo of the back is of a body which is not flat like the spread out shirt.

Therefore some measurements cannot be made from the photo without taking this into account.

off hand I think a 3d model which uses the texture of the shirt could be useful. The photo posted by J. William is the sort of thing that can help get a correct idea of Kennedy's back profile. Perhaps even a simple technical drawing using projections is enough to transfer measurements from shirt to back.

Anyway I'll do my best according to my understanding which hopefully will develop into something 'trustable'. Where I go wrong others can correct etc. Hopefully a definitive statement can be made, perhaps not by me but in time by someone.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

That would be good, Tom. I've been puzzling on that and it looks to me like two piles, and one of them has many 'ends' as if it is a pile of cut bandages.

This makes sense to me when one takes DrCarrico's statement that he didn't see the wrap but he saw that the shirt went over the brace into account. I think when the nurses cut his clothes off they cut the bandages at the same time so when peeling it back he could see the buckle in the front.

Also he saw the top of the front part of the brace at the navel.

I figure the Nurses in cutting off his clothing cut the top layer of bandages off perhaps without knowing what was there* as I imagine speed was of the essence. So when Dr Carrico saw it he could see the brace and buckle but no bandages.

It also makes sense to have some inner lining. Whether that would be bandage or the lining built into the brace itself, perhaps the information you look for can answer.

*if one looks carefully on the front part of the FBI bracephoto one can see a ragged triangle on the top left of centre.

________________________________

notes on some things to consider (IMO)

the photo of the back is of a body which is not flat like the spread out shirt.

Therefore some measurements cannot be made from the photo without taking this into account.

off hand I think a 3d model which uses the texture of the shirt could be useful. The photo posted by J. William is the sort of thing that can help get a correct idea of Kennedy's back profile. Perhaps even a simple technical drawing using projections is enough to transfer measurements from shirt to back.

Anyway I'll do my best according to my understanding which hopefully will develop into something 'trustable'. Where I go wrong others can correct etc. Hopefully a definitive statement can be made, perhaps not by me but in time by someone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Commander HUMES - The President was extremely well-developed, an extremely well-developed, muscular young man with a very well-developed set of muscles in his thoraco and shoulder girdle.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a result of his addison's disease, JFK was consistantly taking steroid shots, which are no doubt a leading factor in the upper girth/shoulder and neck muscle development which he had developed.

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resou...ons+Disease.htm

"but in the late 1930s, researchers developed a synthetic substance, desoxycorticosterone acetate (DOCA), which greatly reduced the mortality rate. However, it remained important for those with the disease to avoid great stress, since stress increases the body’s need for steroids, which the Addisonian’s adrenal glands cannot provide"

"Initially, he took 25 milligrams of cortisone by mouth; he then took it through injection. Also, he had implanted in his thighs DOCA tablets of 150 milligrams, which were replaced several times a year. There are even reports that the Kennedy family kept a reservoir of DOCA and cortisone in safety deposit boxes around the country so that Jack would have ready access to these medications wherever he traveled. One of his closest aides recounts that John Kennedy “used (and carried with him around the country) more pills, potions, poultices and other paraphernalia than would be found in a small dispensary.”

"

By the time John Kennedy launched his presidential campaign in the late 1950s, new treatments for Addison’s disease (Meticorten and the fluorohydrocortisone derivatives or the glucocorticosteroid compounds) had been developed, the adrenal problems associated with the ailment had become entirely manageable, and a normal life span had become possible for the first time. Nevertheless, Kennedy’s physical condition was made an issue in the campaign, despite a statement by one of his physicians that he was “fully rehabilitated from the depletion of adrenal function which he had suffered as a result of his wartime injuries.”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: The MD who treated JFK during this period was referred to as "Dr. Feelgood". He was mixing an injection cocktail of the cortisone and "speed" and giving it to JFK on a daily basis.

This is covered extensively in other writings on the subject of JFK's addison's problems.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As he battled Lyndon B. Johnson for the Democratic presidential nomination, some of Johnson’s allies made reference to Kennedy’s Addison’s disease and used it as an argument against his nomination. India Edwards, a southern Democratic party leader, told a group of reporters that “Kennedy was so sick from Addison’s disease that he looked like a spavined hunchback.” She also asserted that doctors had told her that were it not for cortisone, Kennedy would be dead. Another prominent Johnson ally, campaign manager John Connolly [not to be confused with Texas politician John Connally], charged that, if nominated and elected, Kennedy “couldn’t serve out the term” since “he was going to die.”

[John Dolva]

the concept of number of matching points is helpful.

With this scaling and orientation there are a number of matches.

One can see by looking at the ruler that it is fairly flat (what I mean is that the both ends of the ruler are similarly sized), and as it is lying on the body without noticable significant depression one can infer that the body here in the area around the wound is also flattish, so the dimensions are not much distorted by perspective changes. So the matches in this area can be taken seriously (IMO).

The matches that are illustrated here are by no means all in that area.

for checking this suggested orientation and scaling, a big version is here:

http://files.photojerk.com/yanndee/2.png

One can print out and cut out and check on a light box, or with software, cut paste layering with transparency.

then the upper outline of a spread-out shirt is as indicated in the center image.

[Cliff Varnell]

the concept of number of matching points is helpful.

With this scaling and orientation there are a number of matches.

One can see by looking at the ruler that it is fairly flat (what I mean is that the both ends of the ruler are similarly sized), and as it is lying on the body without noticable significant depression one can infer that the body here in the area around the wound is also flattish, so the dimensions are not much distorted by perspective changes. So the matches in this area can be taken seriously (IMO).

The matches that are illustrated here are by no means all in that area.

for checking this suggested orientation and scaling, a big version is here:

http://files.photojerk.com/yanndee/2.png

One can print out and cut out and check on a light box, or with software, cut paste layering with transparency.

then the upper outline of a spread-out shirt is as indicated in the center image.

John, the Dealey Plaza photos show the clothing collars in a normal position

at the base of his neck on Elm St.

According to the above, you've got the clothing collars riding up almost to

JFK's ears.