Jump to content
The Education Forum

Order in the Courts!


Recommended Posts

I am passing along a few questions I was asked that left me befuddled. From the discussion that ensued when the questions first were posed, it seems befuddlement on these issues is a sentence that was handed down in November 1963 and is still being served by the whole world, without the possibility of parole.

It is the riddle of the court jesters. (And, my God, does this kind of confusion ever have a creepy, slimy familiarity to it!)

Even to pose the question—while attempting not to introduce, or invite, even more confusion—I had to download a Google satellite view of the relevant section of Dallas and attempt to get oriented somehow. I reproduce it below with four color-coded buildings, to each of which I will assign arbitrary names that comport, more or less, to those that seem to lift themselves slightly out of the bog of confusion:

thecourts.jpg

RED BUILDING: County Courts Building

ORANGE BUILDING: Old Courthouse

YELLOW BUILDING: New Courthouse

GREEN BUILDING: Municipal Building (Oswald shot here)

Setting aside, for the moment, the easternmost building in the satellite image above—the Municipal Building, in green, where Oswald was shot—here is an image sent to me of an old postcard of the three "courts" buildings lined up in a row on Houston Street in the Dealey Plaza vicinity:

DealeyCourthouses.jpg

If you aren't already confused, even with all this color coding, I assure you that you are in a royal minority.

ORDER IN THE COURTS!

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

2. What was the difference in the jail facilities, and the police presence, in the County Courts Building (RED) and the Municipal Building (GREEN)?

Now, if I were smart, I probably would just wait for definitive and verifiable answers to those two simple questions before launching into the several thousand questions that seemed to come spinning off of the discussion I had about about just those two questions when they were posed to me.

But nobody has accused me yet of being smart, so I simply can't resist asking one or two more, while valiantly suppressing the other screaming, screeching, wailing questions trying to fly out of this Pandora's box:

3. Where were the offices of Mayor Earl Cabell? (Nobody can even seem to get his actual name, since it's as often spelled "Earle Cabell".)

4. What was on each floor of the County Courts Building (RED)?

While perhaps not smart, I can, at times, at least be prudent, and so I will leave just these four simple questions here and watch the fireworks display. Once it's over, I pray we'll all be better for it.

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 36
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I am passing along a few questions I was asked that left me befuddled. From the discussion that ensued when the questions first were posed, it seems befuddlement on these issues is a sentence that was handed down in November 1963 and is still being served by the whole world, without the possibility of parole.

It is the riddle of the court jesters. (And, my God, does this kind of confusion ever have a creepy, slimy familiarity to it!)

Even to pose the question—while attempting not to introduce, or invite, even more confusion—I had to download a Google satellite view of the relevant section of Dallas and attempt to get oriented somehow. I reproduce it below with four color-coded buildings, to each of which I will assign arbitrary names that comport, more or less, to those that seem to lift themselves slightly out of the bog of confusion:

thecourts.jpg

RED BUILDING: County Courts Building

ORANGE BUILDING: Old Courthouse

YELLOW BUILDING: New Courthouse

GREEN BUILDING: Municipal Building (Oswald shot here)

Setting aside, for the moment, the easternmost building in the satellite image above—the Municipal Building, in green, where Oswald was shot—here is an image sent to me of an old postcard of the three "courts" buildings lined up in a row on Houston Street in the Dealey Plaza vicinity:

DealeyCourthouses.jpg

If you aren't already confused, even with all this color coding, I assure you that you are in a royal minority.

ORDER IN THE COURTS!

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

2. What was the difference in the jail facilities, and the police presence, in the County Courts Building (RED) and the Municipal Building (GREEN)?

Now, if I were smart, I probably would just wait for definitive and verifiable answers to those two simple questions before launching into the several thousand questions that seemed to come spinning off of the discussion I had about about just those two questions when they were posed to me.

But nobody has accused me yet of being smart, so I simply can't resist asking one or two more, while valiantly suppressing the other screaming, screeching, wailing questions trying to fly out of this Pandora's box:

3. Where were the offices of Mayor Earl Cabell? (Nobody can even seem to get his actual name, since it's as often spelled "Earle Cabell".)

4. What was on each floor of the County Courts Building (RED)?

While perhaps not smart, I can, at times, at least be prudent, and so I will leave just these four simple questions here and watch the fireworks display. Once it's over, I pray we'll all be better for it.

Ashton Gray

Ashton...Dallas, as many cities, has dual law enforcement...city and county.

County officers headed by the sheriff. City officers heaed by the police chief.

County officers operate mostly in UNINCORPORATED areas.

The Sheriff and County Jail faced Dealey plaza in your red building, which has

an annex, the white building you did not show...the County Records Building

at Elm and Houston.

In 1963, Bill Decker ran the Jail and Sheriff offices in your red building.

In 1963, Chief Curry ran the Dallas Police Department, your green building,

which was at that time housed in the Dallas municipal building, which housed

city offices, jail and police department. This is where Ruby shot LHO.

At the time your orange building was the County Courthouse (Old Red),

but as you note, a new County Courthouse was under construction.

I hope this answers your questions. If not, ask.

Jack

I am passing along a few questions I was asked that left me befuddled. From the discussion that ensued when the questions first were posed, it seems befuddlement on these issues is a sentence that was handed down in November 1963 and is still being served by the whole world, without the possibility of parole.

It is the riddle of the court jesters. (And, my God, does this kind of confusion ever have a creepy, slimy familiarity to it!)

Even to pose the question—while attempting not to introduce, or invite, even more confusion—I had to download a Google satellite view of the relevant section of Dallas and attempt to get oriented somehow. I reproduce it below with four color-coded buildings, to each of which I will assign arbitrary names that comport, more or less, to those that seem to lift themselves slightly out of the bog of confusion:

thecourts.jpg

RED BUILDING: County Courts Building

ORANGE BUILDING: Old Courthouse

YELLOW BUILDING: New Courthouse

GREEN BUILDING: Municipal Building (Oswald shot here)

Setting aside, for the moment, the easternmost building in the satellite image above—the Municipal Building, in green, where Oswald was shot—here is an image sent to me of an old postcard of the three "courts" buildings lined up in a row on Houston Street in the Dealey Plaza vicinity:

DealeyCourthouses.jpg

If you aren't already confused, even with all this color coding, I assure you that you are in a royal minority.

ORDER IN THE COURTS!

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

2. What was the difference in the jail facilities, and the police presence, in the County Courts Building (RED) and the Municipal Building (GREEN)?

Now, if I were smart, I probably would just wait for definitive and verifiable answers to those two simple questions before launching into the several thousand questions that seemed to come spinning off of the discussion I had about about just those two questions when they were posed to me.

But nobody has accused me yet of being smart, so I simply can't resist asking one or two more, while valiantly suppressing the other screaming, screeching, wailing questions trying to fly out of this Pandora's box:

3. Where were the offices of Mayor Earl Cabell? (Nobody can even seem to get his actual name, since it's as often spelled "Earle Cabell".)

4. What was on each floor of the County Courts Building (RED)?

While perhaps not smart, I can, at times, at least be prudent, and so I will leave just these four simple questions here and watch the fireworks display. Once it's over, I pray we'll all be better for it.

Ashton Gray

Ashton...Dallas, as many cities, has dual law enforcement...city and county.

County officers headed by the sheriff. City officers heaed by the police chief.

County officers operate mostly in UNINCORPORATED areas.

The Sheriff and County Jail faced Dealey plaza in your red building, which has

an annex, the white building you did not show...the County Records Building

at Elm and Houston.

In 1963, Bill Decker ran the Jail and Sheriff offices in your red building.

In 1963, Chief Curry ran the Dallas Police Department, your green building,

which was at that time housed in the Dallas municipal building, which housed

city offices, jail and police department. This is where Ruby shot LHO.

At the time your orange building was the County Courthouse (Old Red),

but as you note, a new County Courthouse was under construction.

I hope this answers your questions. If not, ask.

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks very much, Jack. That certainly helps clarify things on questions 1. and 2.

Any help on questions 3. and 4.? Here they are again:

3. Where were the offices of Mayor Earl Cabell? (Nobody can even seem to get his actual name, since it's as often spelled "Earle Cabell".)

4. What was on each floor of the County Courts Building (RED)?

I could infer from your earlier message that Cabell's offices were in the Municipal Building (GREEN), but if you know.

Ashton

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashton,

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

The street address for the Municipal Building was 106 S. Harwood. It was bounded by Main and Commerce and was about ten or eleven blocks east of Dealey Plaza.

Steve Thomas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashton,

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

The street address for the Municipal Building was 106 S. Harwood. It was bounded by Main and Commerce and was about ten or eleven blocks east of Dealey Plaza.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

The street address for the Municipal Building was 106 S. Harwood. It was bounded by Main and Commerce and was about ten or eleven blocks east of Dealey Plaza.

Steve Thomas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Steve. So we seem to have it sorted out that the Dallas (City-Municipal) Police Department was in the Municipal Building (GREEN) at the address you cited, and the County Sherriff police force was in the so-called "County Courts" building (RED) situated so that its Houston Street side faces Dealey Plaza.

Both had jail facilities.

One of the other scaly fanged questions trying to break out of the box is:

5. If Oswald was destined for the County jail facility (RED BUILDING), why was he taken to the Municipal jail facility (GREEN BUILDING) first (I mean other than to provide an opportunity to have him shot)?

Ashton

P.S. I find a certain wry irony in the way this thread is somehow managing to spawn duplicate and even triplicate responses. :pop

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest John Gillespie
Thanks, Steve. So we seem to have it sorted out that the Dallas (City-Municipal) Police Department was in the Municipal Building (GREEN) at the address you cited, and the County Sherriff police force was in the so-called "County Courts" building (RED) situated so that its Houston Street side faces Dealey Plaza.

Both had jail facilities.

One of the other scaly fanged questions trying to break out of the box is:

5. If Oswald was destined for the County jail facility (RED BUILDING), why was he taken to the Municipal jail facility (GREEN BUILDING) first (I mean other than to provide an opportunity to have him shot)?

Ashton

P.S. I find a certain wry irony in the way this thread is somehow managing to spawn duplicate and even triplicate responses. :rolleyes:

Ash,

It appears a squad of poltergeists has descended upon us here today: I just had to re-log and, before that, noticed that the "members..." number involved on the page was '0' even when I was in attendance. It might be worth noting whether there is correlation or, at least, coincidence (but, of course there are no coincidences).

JG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks very much, Jack. That certainly helps clarify things on questions 1. and 2.

Any help on questions 3. and 4.? Here they are again:

3. Where were the offices of Mayor Earl Cabell? (Nobody can even seem to get his actual name, since it's as often spelled "Earle Cabell".)

4. What was on each floor of the County Courts Building (RED)?

I could infer from your earlier message that Cabell's offices were in the Municipal Building (GREEN), but if you know.

Ashton

Cabell's city offices were at city hall (green). He was in the dairy

business, so I assume he maintained offices at his place of business,

Cabell Dairies. Being mayor at that time was not a "full-time" job.

I think the sheriff offices were on the ground floor, some courts

next, and jail on upper floors...but I am no authority on that.

Jack

Thanks, Steve. So we seem to have it sorted out that the Dallas (City-Municipal) Police Department was in the Municipal Building (GREEN) at the address you cited, and the County Sherriff police force was in the so-called "County Courts" building (RED) situated so that its Houston Street side faces Dealey Plaza.

Both had jail facilities.

One of the other scaly fanged questions trying to break out of the box is:

5. If Oswald was destined for the County jail facility (RED BUILDING), why was he taken to the Municipal jail facility (GREEN BUILDING) first (I mean other than to provide an opportunity to have him shot)?

Ashton

P.S. I find a certain wry irony in the way this thread is somehow managing to spawn duplicate and even triplicate responses. :pop

The charged crimes were CITY OF DALLAS crimes, so he should have remained in CITY JAIL.

He should never have gone to the COUNTY JAIL. However, I think it was customary to transfer

convicted prisoners or long term prisoners to the county jail, as it was larger I think.

The "transfer" was an excuse to give Ruby a chance to do his thing.

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest John Gillespie

"5. If Oswald was destined for the County jail facility (RED BUILDING), why was he taken to the Municipal jail facility (GREEN BUILDING) first (I mean other than to provide an opportunity to have him shot)?"

____________________________________

Ash,

...a better facility, for his protection ("They want to arrange a meeting between me and Barzini. On Tessio's ground. Where I'll be safe."). Well, you used 'irony' first.

JG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashton,

5. If Oswald was destined for the County jail facility (RED BUILDING), why was he taken to the Municipal jail facility (GREEN BUILDING) first (I mean other than to provide an opportunity to have him shot)?

As Jack said in his response, the offenses took place in the city limits of Dallas, which put Oswald in their jurisdiction.

If I can make sense of Bill Decker's rather convoluted way of speaking, if a prisoner had been charged with a felony and arraigned, in the case of a felony, Decker would get together with Fritz and work out a plan for transferring him to the county jail which was much more secure that the Dallas City jail.

Mr. DECKER - Oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750 prisoners.

Mr. HUBERT - Do you have what might be called maximum security there?

Mr. DECKER - Yes; I do--there are many maximums--I have 450 maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others are built in the old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel isn't so good in that old jail.

Mr. HUBERT - By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out?

Mr. DECKER - It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern locks. The man who maintains it--the opening and closing of the doors to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, I'm sorry to say. You don't need to put that in there. They are no longer with me. They opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their jobs and I lost five prisoners.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/decker.htm

A more intriguing question for me was why Oswald was not booked and fingerprinted in the basement of City Hall before being taken up to the third floor for questioning.

One of the officers told the WC that sometimes in cases of felonies or serious crimes, prisoners were taken directly to the third floor without being processed first; however, I've looked and can't find which one told the WC that. As you know, Oswald wasn't fingerprinted until 9:00 that night.

Steve Thomas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gotta' let some of these little suckers escape; they bite and scratch:

6. Do I understand correctly that Sheriff Bill Decker, riding in the motorcade, essentially ordered his "County Courts" (RED) building evacuated right after shots were fired by ordering all his people immediately out into the field?

7. What, if any, Secret Service presence was in the County Courts (RED) building?

8. Are there any floor plans of the County Courts (RED) building and/or its connected annex, the County Records building?

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gotta' let some of these little suckers escape; they bite and scratch:

6. Do I understand correctly that Sheriff Bill Decker, riding in the motorcade, essentially ordered his "County Courts" (RED) building evacuated right after shots were fired by ordering all his people immediately out into the field?

7. What, if any, Secret Service presence was in the County Courts (RED) building?

8. Are there any floor plans of the County Courts (RED) building and/or its connected annex, the County Records building?

Ashton

The SS may have been in the "federal building/postal annex" on the

south edge of Dealey Plaza. I seem to remember that the FBI was

in the Rio Grande Building several blocks east of the plaza. Or maybe

it was vice versa.

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gotta' let some of these little suckers escape; they bite and scratch:

6. Do I understand correctly that Sheriff Bill Decker, riding in the motorcade, essentially ordered his "County Courts" (RED) building evacuated right after shots were fired by ordering all his people immediately out into the field?

7. What, if any, Secret Service presence was in the County Courts (RED) building?

8. Are there any floor plans of the County Courts (RED) building and/or its connected annex, the County Records building?

Ashton

The SS may have been in the "federal building/postal annex" on the

south edge of Dealey Plaza. I seem to remember that the FBI was

in the Rio Grande Building several blocks east of the plaza. Or maybe

it was vice versa.

Jack

I'm getting the idea that the entire complex of the Criminal Courts (RED) building and its annex, the County Records building, were, and at all relevant times have been, essentially sacrosanct and above the slightest whiff of suspicion or investigation in regards to the assassination. Is that correct? Is there anything in the record that indicates otherwise?

I'm wondering particularly now, not only given the confusion generated by the various "court" and "jail" related buildings, clustered and otherwise, but also in relation to this image I received a copy of:

dealeytrajectories.jpg

The green lines are all the same length.

It was accompanied by comments that I don't feel at liberty to reproduce in full, but they were from someone who has combat experience. Paraphrased, it suggested that in a well-planned sniper hit primary concerns are secure concealment and multiple egress routes. A plus is diversionary tactics where possible, and it indicated a high likelihood of the smoke near the picket fence being exactly that.

Given the dramatic exit wound on the right side of the forehead, the message suggested that entry would have been from back left, which is not inconsistent with either of two trajectories indicated above from the Sheriff's "County Courts" (RED) building, but is inconsistent with a head shot from the TSBD.

That brought to my mind this photo:

kennedyautopsyrear.JPEG

Perhaps it gives "cover-up" a whole new meaning.

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gotta' let some of these little suckers escape; they bite and scratch:

6. Do I understand correctly that Sheriff Bill Decker, riding in the motorcade, essentially ordered his "County Courts" (RED) building evacuated right after shots were fired by ordering all his people immediately out into the field?

7. What, if any, Secret Service presence was in the County Courts (RED) building?

8. Are there any floor plans of the County Courts (RED) building and/or its connected annex, the County Records building?

Ashton

The SS may have been in the "federal building/postal annex" on the

south edge of Dealey Plaza. I seem to remember that the FBI was

in the Rio Grande Building several blocks east of the plaza. Or maybe

it was vice versa.

Jack

I'm getting the idea that the entire complex of the Criminal Courts (RED) building and its annex, the County Records building, were, and at all relevant times have been, essentially sacrosanct and above the slightest whiff of suspicion or investigation in regards to the assassination. Is that correct? Is there anything in the record that indicates otherwise?

I'm wondering particularly now, not only given the confusion generated by the various "court" and "jail" related buildings, clustered and otherwise, but also in relation to this image I received a copy of:

dealeytrajectories.jpg

The green lines are all the same length.

It was accompanied by comments that I don't feel at liberty to reproduce in full, but they were from someone who has combat experience. Paraphrased, it suggested that in a well-planned sniper hit primary concerns are secure concealment and multiple egress routes. A plus is diversionary tactics where possible, and it indicated a high likelihood of the smoke near the picket fence being exactly that.

Given the dramatic exit wound on the right side of the forehead, the message suggested that entry would have been from back left, which is not inconsistent with either of two trajectories indicated above from the Sheriff's "County Courts" (RED) building, but is inconsistent with a head shot from the TSBD.

That brought to my mind this photo:

kennedyautopsyrear.JPEG

Perhaps it gives "cover-up" a whole new meaning.

Ashton

Ashton...the graphic you posted is clearly in error. Elm Street and Main Street

are both 40 feet wide. You can see by the scale that the streets do not match

that scale.

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashton...the graphic you posted is clearly in error. Elm Street and Main Street are both 40 feet wide. You can see by the scale that the streets do not match that scale.

Jack

Then an apparently popular and meticulously drawn schematic of Dealey is in error, too.

Here's what I uploaded:

dealeytrajectories.jpg

Here's the same image with the schematic overlaid, ghosted to about 40%:

dealeytrajandplan.jpg

The original scale from the schematic is placed directly above the scale on the drawing. I can see maybe a smidge of wriggle room between the two scales—but to me it's close enough for government work (and I use that last phrase with malice aforethought).

As another check I overlaid a Google satellite image, and it also seems to check out—although the resolution, current size of trees, and stark shadows made that difficult to see an exact correlation. Still, the buildings and major features certainly seemed to align, including the streets and sidewalks. (It's impossible to show the two images overlaid, and I ain't up for any animations. Anybody who cares can do it themselves.)

If you have a better or more accurate reference than that schematic, point me to it and I'll give a heads up to the person who sent the drawing to me.

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...